Budget 1911

[Chuckman]

One thing I can say is buy a 1911 with a 4” (commander sized) or 5” (full Size) when you stray to far from the original design you can run into issues cycling and overall reliability. Break it in with 230 grain FMJ (ball ) ammo - buy good magazines - most issues can be traced back to mags. For god sakes don’t start changing parts ,springs ...a 1911 is a gun that is tuned and most parts need to be fitted. I have seen many decent 1911s turned into a worthless heap of crap after lots of drop in so called “upgrades” I love shooting them from time to time - maybe I will break out one for next weeks pistol match

We used to have a fella on the forum (on the old forum for sure, not sure if he was ever here, 1911Tuner). He said "if a 1911 is built to spec, it will run. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice." This is followed by "this rule goes out the window when you start messing with them."

 

[Jayne]

All very good information, thank you. So my biggest takeaways are Rock Island and Tisas (while I still can), stick with .45 cause thats what it was meant to be used with, and go full sized (which was the plan anyway).

You'll want to service them more than 'modern' guns as well. I used to use my 1911 in two classes a year (and not much practice between, no where to practice where I was living) and over the course of 15,658 rounds through the gun I had 3 broken slide stops and 1 broken thumb safety (sheared right off, strangest thing). I was pretty good about replacing the recoil springs every 2500 rounds. Chip Mccormick mags for the most part until I got my hands on a wilson... those are nice.

This was before I developed the steel case ammo fetish that I have now, so all those rounds were brass. Ah, the good old days.

 

[S4f]

We used to have a fella on the forum (on the old forum for sure, not sure if he was ever here, 1911Tuner). He said "if a 1911 is built to spec, it will run. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice." This is followed by "this rule goes out the window when you start messing with them."

That would be john Travis post 29 in this thread

 

[Chuckman]

That would be john Travis post 29 in this thread

I had no idea. I am honored to remain in his presence. He's forgotten more about that platform than I have ever learned. He helped me out so much in the early days of learning about it.

 

[MacEntyre]

I strongly prefer Commander size 1911s...

 

[John Travis]

I strongly prefer Commander size 1911s...

I like the Commanders myself, but they do present the opportunity for problems that the 5-inch pistols don't. They're just less fogiving than their full-sized cousins.

The problem isn't with the length or the weight of the slide. The Commander slide's is only 9/10ths of an ounce lighter than the 5-inch slide. Not exactly game changing in and of itself

The issue is slide travel and runup distance from the impact abutment to the magazine and the necessarily stronger spring required to give the slide the momentum that it needs to effect a reliable return to battery. The shorter distance and the higher rate of acceleration give the magazine less time to get the cartridge into position.

Back when I was doing the workshops, I could've dedicated an entire segment to the Commander, and as popular as they are, I probably should have. There are far more differences than just 3/4th of an inch of slide and barrel...some subtle and not often noticed.

And when Colt went to the Officer's Model, they shortened the slide travel and runup even further and then the fun really started. They bring to mind a little rhyme I've heard.

There was a girl who had a curl in the middle of her forehead...and when she was good, she was very good...but when she was bad, she was horrid.

 

[John Travis]

I used to use my 1911 in two classes a year (and not much practice between, no where to practice where I was living) and over the course of 15,658 rounds through the gun I had 3 broken slide stops and 1 broken thumb safety (sheared right off, strangest thing). I was pretty good about replacing the recoil spring about every 2500 rounds.

This was before I developed the steel case ammo fetish that I have now, so all those rounds were brass. Ah, the good old days.

The broken parts are more a material issue than one of design.

You're replacing the "recoil" springs far too often. A waste of money.

Finally, if the steel cased ammo is still made like the old Russian Wolf ammo, you'll break your extractor.,,not beause of the steel cases expanding in the chamber and not releasing like brass, but because the short, abrupt extractor groove bangs into the extractor nose when the case is slammed into the breechface.

During WW2, the steel cased ammunition was fielded for use in our submachine guns...not the pistols. Their extractor designs were much different and didn't require the same clearance as the pistol extractors did. When the Russians copied it, they probably used the specs off of some leftover sub gun ammo they happened on.

 

[S4f]

@John Travis
A couple of my 1911s i.e. my rock islands are bushing less does this design have any advantage or disadvantage over the 1911 with a barrel bushing?

 

[John Travis]

@John Travis
A couple of my 1911s i.e. my rock islands are bushing less does this design have any advantage or disadvantage over the 1911 with a barrel bushing?

Advantage: The coned muzzle offers enhanced accuracy without the need to fit a bushing.

Disadvantage: Standard action/recoil springs for the model won't work.
Weird field strip process.

Incidentally, the coned muzzle can be traced back to Browning's early pistols...the Models of 1900, 1902, 1905, and 1907.

 

[rufrdr]

All very good information, thank you. So my biggest takeaways are Rock Island and Tisas (while I still can), stick with .45 cause thats what it was meant to be used with, and go full sized (which was the plan anyway).

I have a Rock Island 1911 in .38 super that is 100% reliable and accurate. I had a 9mm linked barrel fitted to it, and it is equally reliable and accurate. A RI in 9mm especially with the current ramped barrel would be a great low cost government model in 9mm.

 

[Jayne]

The broken parts are more a material issue than one of design.

I was told that kimber had a bad batch of material at one point, to hard/brittle and they cracked a lot of slides. I was just glad my slide was fine and it was just cheaper parts that fell off.

You're replacing the "recoil" springs far too often. A waste of money.

quite possible. I don't remember who/why/what the reasoning was behind that number, but at 1 spring a year I figured... meh.

 

[303hunter]

I’ve got a Rock Island 9mm officers model that’s been very reliable. It’s got the bushingless barrel, and is very accurate. It also has decent sights for a pistol in it’s price range.

 

[MacEntyre]

@John Travis, I finally got a vintage 9mm Colt Commander from a member here... It was made in 1969. I love it! It choots well, appears to be all original, and need nuthin'! One day I'll bring it to the Dog Rescue, if'n yer up for it.

Oops... it ain't a budget 1911. We now return to the discussion about t'other end of the 1911 market.

 

[Bloodyhands]

I like many folks around here has, or have had a full spectrum of 1911's. I looked at the Armscore pistols a few years ago but had too much in front of it in line.
Recently I decided to pick one up in 9mm, and am very happy with it. I also was doing some trading awhile back and ended up with a Tisas in .45.
The fit and finish on both are impressive, and as reported by others seem to be very reliable as well.
Also, it is pretty rewarding to get something you can be very satisfied with for such a great price when you are used to paying more.

 

[Charlie]

I'm looking into options for a 1911 to have fun with. It's not going to be a daily carry or competition pistol so it doesn't have to be really high end, it just has to function. I'd heard good things about Springfield and Rock Island and was wondering what everyone's thoughts were.

I suggest that you determine the features you want on your pistol and then go find a brand that offers that configuration. I prefer a full size pistol even though I also have both Commander and Officer size pistols. I need a beaver tail grip safety to keep my fat little hands from being bloody from hammer bite. I shoot much better with rather simple sights that are not distracting and confusing when I am shooting. I do not care for ambi safeties and recently replaced the ambi safeties on all but one of the pistols that came with them. I like GI style guide rods better than most full length guide rods. That is an easy switch and is not a deal breaker. I prefer 45 Auto although I do have several in 9mm. Most of the other available options do not bother me one way or the other.

Your wants and needs may be quite different from mine, and you should be able to find what suits you in a factory pistol so you do not have to swap out parts to get the pistol you want.

I also suggest that you try several different brands and models of magazines. Some work better than others in some pistols. Fancy does not necessarily mean better. I generally use something simple like Checkmate 7 round magazines with GI or Hybrid feed lips and dimpled followers. They seem to be close to the original GI magazines I have and have performed very well in all my full size and Commander-size pistols. I have plenty of other brands but always seem to come back to those.

 

[BatteryOaksBilly]

Just some info for your perusal...For the past year I have been doing a little "spearment". I have used nothing but WW11 GI mags for day shooting. I use nothing but 230 ball. I have had ZERO FTF in Any 1911.

 

[Chuckman]

I was told that kimber had a bad batch of material at one point, to hard/brittle and they cracked a lot of slides. I was just glad my slide was fine and it was just cheaper parts that fell off.

Kimber came close to ruining their rep back in the early/mid-90s by putting out a bunch of crap.

In recon we had 1911s, built on whatever frames we happened to have, some dating back to the 50s. They worked. Det 1 (recon Marines that ended up forming the nucleus of MARSOC) had brand-spankin' new Kimbers; many of which had significant parts failures. They ended up just robbing what was left of recon's 1911s. That experience soured me on Kimber, but I always liked their SIS model.

 

[vaskeet]

The guns were designed to run with .45 Ball ammo. All else requires a mechanical accommodation.

both my RIA fullsize and Citadel CS 45s (made by RIA) run federal hydro shocks and my reloaded 200 grain semi-wadcutters with no issues

 

[Triggernosis]

This is a copy of a post from another forum about the reliability of non-full sized 1911's.
QUOTE:
Self appointed internet experts claim the short barreled/short slide 1911s are not reliable. That’s not the case.

The problem is that shooters buy one and then start trying to “upgrade” it. They’ll put in an extra power recoil spring, and or add a shock buffer, without understanding how it can change the dwell time and or slide over run distance for the slide in relation to the magazine well and feeding the next round.

It is true that the slide overrun is reduced on the officer model sized frame 1911s, but the slide over run is sufficient if they don’t mess with the springs or add a shock buffer. Simply put the engineering is a little different on the short frame 1911s and you can’t aftermarket pimp the internals like a full sized 1911.

The non custom shop Kimbers also often need a break in period to achieve full reliability and too many shooters will put a box through a new one, get a few failures to feed and declare it’s not reliable. My Ultra Carry is a good example as it took a couple hundred rounds before it was fully reliable - and has been relentlessly reliable ever since - provided the recoil spring is changed every 800-1000 rounds.

That’s another area where officer model frame sized 1911 owners often come up short in not realizing the recoil spring assemblies are shorter lived than in a full size 1911.

Finally, wanna be 1911 shooters in general don’t understand the effects of magazine lips and the difference the different lip designs make for ball, RNFP, hollow point and semi wad cutter ammunition.

For example the tapered lip magazine on the left was the standard GI magazine designed for 230 gr FMJ “ball” ammo. For the long 230 gr FMJ round nose bullet it provides silky smooth feeding with full controlled feed of the round. The long tapered lips allow the base of the round to rise gradually as the bullet rides up the feed ramp and it allows the rim to enter the extractor at a low angle.

The tapered feed lip design won’t with 100% reliability with a shorter hollow point, RNFP or semi wadcutter as the shorter OAL of the rounds cause the rim to rise too fast/too much before the nose starts to ride up the feed ramp. The end result is a percentage of rounds get driven into the feed ramp at too low an angle and hang up between the frame’s feed ramp and the barrel’s feed ramp.

Colt developed the hybrid lipped “commercial” magazine design (in the center) in the 1930s to allow shorter OAL rounds to feed better while still working well with the longer 230 gr FMJ. Most commercial 1911s today come with a hybrid lip magazine.

They slow the rise of the base and rim to allow for a better angle at the feed ramp with short OAL bullets. They also release the base of the round sooner to prevent an excessive angle with the longer 230 gr FMJ rounds at the cost of giving up some of the controlled feed and smoothness with 230 gr FMJs. They also don’t always feed well with really short 185 gr or lighter semi wad cutters as they still may not have enough up angle when they finally hit the feed ramp. But they are a good compromise for most commonly used factory loads.

The parallel lip or “wad cutter” mag (on the right) has straight, parallel lips that hold the rim down and then suddenly release it. These can cause big problems with 230 gr FMJs as the nose rides well up the feed ramp before the rim is allowed to rise into the extractor. This can cause the rim to jam in the extractor resulting in the round stopping the slide about 1/8” short of being in battery. Worse, it can cause the nose of the bullet to get driven into the space between the barrel and the top of the slide, creating a nasty 3 point jam that requires you to drop the magazine and rack the slide to clear.

With a short semi-wad cutter this feed lip design works well by holding the rim down and then releasing the rim shortly after the nose hits the feed ramp, keeping the angle steep enough to ride up the ramp, and shallow enough to get the bullet in the barrel.

There is also the Wilson 47D magazine that holds the round higher and flatter in front of the breech face. Basically it throws the round up in front of the slide and gives up pretending to be even partially controlled feed. The downside is that the rim often ends up in front of the extractor and the extractor then has to snap over the rim. The wad cutter and Wilson 47D mags are where you see gunsmiths relieving the extractor to both allow the steeper rim angle of the FMJ rounds to still enter the extractor with the wad cutter magazines, or snap over the rim with the 47D magazines.

In short, the combination of OAL, feed lips and extractor profile makes a difference and a shooter who doesn’t understand what’s going on will have less than perfect reliability - and then blame the gun. In Kimber terms, I’ve found nearly all Kimbers are very reliable when using Kimber magazines, unless you are using a really short semi wad cutter bullet, where a wad cutter lipped magazine might work better.

 

[John Travis]

Self appointed internet experts claim the short barreled/short slide 1911s are not reliable. That’s not the case.

There are a good many of the chopped down pistols that are reliable out of the box...and a good many that aren't...and when they aren't, they can drive a pistol mechanic nearly 'round the bend in the attempt to beat'em into submission. Due to the short travel and higher slide speeds, the window of opportunity is narrowed, and if you have a delinquent, you really gotta be on your game when you start to root out the bugs.

Their larger cousins are simply more forgiving.

 

[Sharps40]

All very good information, thank you. So my biggest takeaways are Rock Island and Tisas (while I still can), stick with .45 cause thats what it was meant to be used with, and go full sized (which was the plan anyway).

The myth that an officers or smaller 1911 is a feeding and ejection failure child is.....a myth. I've relied on 3 for daily carry for nearly 40 years. They are as reliable as any revolver, a colt, a para, a rock Island. All stock. You're not buying a $189 Yeet Cannon.

Purchase the one (good name) that suits you and learn to use it.