Calling all CZ Fans

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by BatteryOaksBilly, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    I have been aware of these since their inception and the "you can't have one" days. Here is what I want and need your guidance .
    Full size...as close to the original "black paint" finish, with box and all that came with it. I am looking on GB and there are many. They all appear to be current mfg. NOT what I am after. I shot a couple of mags through one of these in about '80. Brought in through Canada to a fellow with some connections. If ya'll will help me find an original one I will try to get it. I am trying to accumulate original civilian versions of European military arms. I have the Swiss and Germans covered. Would like to have a CZ 75.
     
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  2. wvsig

    wvsig Active Member

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    It sounds like you are looking for a Pre-B CZ 75. They are very hard to find without secondary import marks. It will be even harder to find with the box etc. Most of the time you see them in surplus condition.

    There is one on GB right now that meets all your criteria but has an import mark. Correct grips, box and manual. It is not perfect but pretty close. One thing about the older Pre Bs there are some issues with them if you are going to shoot them regularly. @Walt Sherrill knows more about them then I do. I was late to the CZ game. Only started looking at them in the earl 2000s. Walt has been into them for a long time.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    Thanks so much, I don't mind spending to get the RIGHT thing. This info helps lead me in the right direction. What would be a reasonable price to look to pay for the gun in your picture? I am on the one on GB. Thanks, I put it on my watch list. Again, where should I be on this?
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  4. wvsig

    wvsig Active Member

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    It is hard to say. In excellent condition you are in that crazy nexus of collector vs shooter. It is so hard to properly price these things. One without a box manual etc... but in excellent condition but newer production based on the grips went for $525 in 12/17. Surplus beaters go for $300-$450. The one on GB right now that I took the pics from will be a $800+ gun IMHO. It is about as complete as it gets. I have not seen one that nice with boxe etc in a long time. My WAG would be you want to stay under $1,000 and even that is paying a big premium for condition and box etc... You can add even more $$$ if it does not have a secondary import mark.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  5. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    Now that's the info I was looking for!!!!!
     
  6. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    Well, I'm high bid right now. With your guidance, maybe we'll get it.
     
  7. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    Strange , I thought the CZ fans were a little more rabid than this. WV what are the issues you mentioned in shooting these? I shot a Bren 10 a good bit, but I think it was slightly larger in dimensions . I fully intend to shoot this..alot. Is there a better variant ? I just wanted as close to original as possible. Do not hold back from leading me to a shooter grade. I would get one like that also.
     
  8. wvsig

    wvsig Active Member

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    Right off the top of my head:

    • Mags are not always compatible because the dimensions of the grip are narrower on the early Pre Bs.
    • Old black enamel finish sucks. It flakes off and with a collector gun I would never put it in anything but a well worn leather holster.
    • There is no firing pin block.
    • Can't dry fire Pre B because you can damage the firing pin.
    • Some of the small parts do not interchange and the pre B parts are no longer in production. Can't off the top of my head remember which parts but the safety mechanism comes to mind.
    • The older front sights were staked and sometimes cam loose.
    • Dovetail on the rear sight is different. IIRC it is narrower.
    • The pre -Bs have a slightly different slide profile.
    • They also have a different trigger guard. It is more rounded.
    • The slide stop is different but I believe the newer ones will work. This is an issue because the slide stop is the weak point in the CZ design.
    • There are also "transitional" models which are tweeners between early pre-Bs and current production Bs.
    The biggest issue with shooting a Pre-B is breaking something that is no longer in production and then having to hunt down that part. The small number of Pre Bs that were imported makes this even more of an issue. If I was going to have one and shoot it on a regular basis I would buy a beater of the same vintage that I could cannibalize for parts if needed.

    If we can get @Walt Sherrill to chime in I am sure he can break it down further. He knows a lot more about them than I do.

    CZ fans break into 2 categories in my experience. Newer shooters who love them for their relatively low price and the ability to slick them up and turn a $500 base gun into a race gun via CGW and CZ Custom and then old schoolers who love them because they were at one time mysterious eastern block commie pistols that Copper talked positively about. I sort of fall in the middle which makes me knowledgeable enough to open my mouth but also possibly wrong on some of the details.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
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  9. pinkbunny

    pinkbunny Senior Member Charter Life Member

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    Well, the Czech Republic uses CZ75B's right now in their military, so if you are getting a preB already, no reason not to get a more modern version for your shooter, as it's still accurate to today.
     
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  10. chiefjason

    chiefjason Vendor and Leather Hack Charter Member Vendor

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    The pre B does not have the firing pin block. So try not to drop it. lol But none of the older guns have those either. Seems there are differences in some mags, some 75b mags will not fit the 75. Looks like it's the extended mags that don't fit. I'm no expert just love my 75b and started looking into it.
     
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  11. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

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    I shoot 'em, don't collect 'em. For $1,000 I get a CGW or CZ Custom 75. Or I buy two of there rimfires. But that's me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
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  12. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill New Member Supporting Member

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    You may be correct, but I'm less sure about this point -- but agree on the others in your list. Some original parts are getting more rare. You can buy new pre-B magazines from CZ, and the grip area can be opened up pretty easily so that new mags work.

    I was a long-time participant and moderator on the CZ Forum and have owned a number of pre-Bs. I participated in a lot of discussions on this topic over the years and never heard of there being a problem with pre-B firing pins being damaged from dry-firing -- but my "not hearing about" the problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't/didn't exist... When I was active on that board -- about 10-15 years ago, pre-Bs were more talked about than seen.

    The only firing pin problems I heard of were with the B-models, which use a firing pin retention roll pin to keep the firing pin in the slide. The roll pins would sometimes break from dry-firing. (I dry-fired a lot and only experienced that problem once, in a CZ-40B (which is basically very similar to the 75B except for grip design). A number of others has problems with broken roll pins, but they are easily replaced with a roll pin from a local hardware store, if cut to length.)

    I've had a bunch of pre-Bs, and the only problem I heard of were some of the safety-lever-related issues with the early models, (like the one in the photo, with the hole in the lever). If you weren't careful when removing that lever (by putting a small screwdriver or pin in that hold to control the spring inside, the spring could go astray, and not be found. No replacement parts are available. Unhappily, the current safety lever mechanism is a different design and not compatible with the older frames, which lack the necessary detent fittings inside the frame to work.

    One of my early CZs was very similar to the one in the photo, in original box, and if ever fired, it was fired very little. I also had several pre-B 85s in high-gloss blue (which very similar to the recently discontinued 85 Combat.) My second CZ was a pre-b, which had the original safety mechanism and enamel finish. I refinished it. That early model also didn't have the half-cock notch on the hammer. Years after I sold it, I found that it may have been one of the very rare "short rail" models (which didn't have the half cock notch.)

    For the higher costs of a true low-mileage pre-B, I think I'd just get a good used B model, and send it off to Cajun Gun Works for David's improvements -- and end up with a gun that will be a joy to shoot, and has parts available if you ever need them. (That said, while parts are getting rare for some pre-B components, things just don't break that often.)

    ( I have a pre-B slide stop stashed away. I don't plan on having another pre-B so it will be sold, one of these days. :))
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  13. draco88

    draco88 Dang it, Bobby Charter Life Member

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    I kinda fall in the middle, too.
    Born in the early 70's, we were a shotgun/rifle family growing up. Dad had one pistol...a Smith revolver. I really didn't get into pistol shooting until my mid twenties after my first stint in the military. It was the the late 1990's and by then, all the CZ's were B models. Add in the fact that, as a product of the anti Soviet era, I would see them in a gun store and think 'cheap eastern european trash' (boy, was I wrong lol) then browse right on by.
    I never discovered how awesome they were until I did a training rotation in Poland...circa 2011...during my second stint in the military. While not the official sidearm of the Polish, some of their units have them in their Armory.
    We did a fun shoot where they shot our weapons and we shot theirs. I hit the pistol range with a 75B and immediately started punching one big ragged hole in the paper. Our safety moved me to another part of the range and I hit a 25 meter target with a pistol for the first time in my life. I was about 38 years old...and hooked.
    I got back to the States after three years and change in Europe and bought my first CZ in 2014. I now have seven of them.
    I have read and educated myself on their history, design, and variants but have never actually held or fired a pre B. I enjoy threads like this because I know I don't know enough to chime in...but I always learn something.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  14. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill New Member Supporting Member

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    I'll agree that the pre-B can do almost anything as well as the current 75B -- except pass a drop-safety test -- since the pre-B doesn't have a firing pin block. The pre-B trigger will likely be a bit better than a B model, at least at first. And finding additional pre-B mags may prove a problem, but pre-B mags are available from CZ. The pre-Bs can be modify the pre-B to accept the newer mags pretty easily by a gunsmith (or an owner).

    While the 75B may be used in the Czech Republic's military, Glock 17s and Glock 19s are too and But I've seen nothing about the relative numbers of each being used there.

    One site https://www.militaryfactory.com/modern-guns/index.asp tells us that the 75 used by the CZ military is the 75 Phantom, which is a polymer-framed version that seems to be a military-only design. The Czech National Police used the PCR model, and now may be using the P-01, both of which are decocker-equipped variants of the basic 75B design -- so those guns can rightly be called 75Bs.

    Other militaries are using CZs, but parts for some of those guns are being made by CZ but assembled in the buying countries Other militaries seem to be picking up on the 75 Phantom or the P-07 (which is a subtly different design, but which retains the great CZ 75 ergonomics.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
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  15. wvsig

    wvsig Active Member

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    You are probably right about the firing pin roll pins being the problem not the firing pins themselves. As I said before "I sort of fall in the middle which makes me knowledgeable enough to open my mouth but also possibly wrong on some of the details."
     
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  16. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Charter Member Benefactor Kimberless

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  17. wvsig

    wvsig Active Member

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    I went that route recently.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    Welllll as of right now I am still high on the one on GB. BUT a full week to go. I think I might buy it if it doesn't go nuts. We'll see.
    I can't tell ya'll how much I appreciate the help. I have thought about these off and on since the "you can't have one of these days". I want as close to that model as possible. This looks like it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
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  19. NoNameHaveI

    NoNameHaveI I'm lovin it! Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    The 75 phantom is available for purchase, I have had a couple they feel closer to a true polymer CZ in the hand then the P07/P09 models, if they made a smaller P01 sized phantom it would hit a lot of marks for me!
     
  20. wvsig

    wvsig Active Member

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    I believe it was out of production for the US market at one time.

    http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-75-sp-01-phantom-2017-update/

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  21. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill New Member Supporting Member

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    I had NOT looked at the CZ-USA website in quite a while. It was OUT for a while. I'm not a big fan of decocker models, so I'd probably never get a Phantom... But I'm still looking to trade into a P-09 or P10c...
     
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  22. NoNameHaveI

    NoNameHaveI I'm lovin it! Benefactor Charter Life Member

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  23. NoNameHaveI

    NoNameHaveI I'm lovin it! Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    What are you looking to trade? Shoot me a pm. :D
     
  24. R1E45

    R1E45 Active Member

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    I just recently discovered CZ's and know next to nothing about them. This thread was a fascinating read.
     
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  25. GreatGazoo

    GreatGazoo Member

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    CZ fans break into 2 categories in my experience.

    My first handgun, the CZ P-07, picked me: settled in my hand like nothing else (Sig; S&W; Glock; Beretta). I'd been keen on the Beretta PX4 Storm rotating barrel mechanism (and style), but with CZ, "click."
     
  26. Combat Diver

    Combat Diver Active Member

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    I used to collect CZ pistols in West Germany 88-90'. Managed to pick up 4ea CZ-50s, 1ea CZ83 in .380, 4 ea CZ75s and a CZ85. All made to before 1988. Went nice with my WWII CZ27 with Waffen proofs. Had Bruce Nelson make me one of his excellent Summer Specials IWB holster for it back in 88'. Only have one ea CZ75, 83 and 50 left, along with a BRNO pre WWII 98/29 action. Also had Ted Blocker rig for the 75/85. Used to shoot ISPC with them in 91'. Carried the 75 with the Summer Special for six straight months last year. Rattle canned mine years ago in OD Green, painted the front sight orange and added a set of Pacmeyer grips to it. Picked up enough spare mags for mine and have extra parts. Iraq issued them to their military before 03', seen container's full of them.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Summer Special
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ted Blocker LFI rig (left and right hand IWB)
    [​IMG]


    CD
     
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  27. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    NOTHING better looking than well used leather and it's firearm. Please, give me a holler if the 75 ever needs a new home. Also I am no longer high bidder on the pre B on GB. It goes off Sunday. I'll try at LEAST one more time.
     
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  28. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    Just hit it again. If somebody goes around now...they've bought it. High for now on the preB.
     
  29. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill New Member Supporting Member

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    The best way to win a gun is to set an alarm clock and be on line as you get close to the ending time and be ready to put in a final bid with less than a minute to go... Timing is everything, and sometimes you find that someone else is playing THAT game, too. :)

    Putting in your bid too early just runs the price up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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  30. Geezer

    Geezer Flatland Hillbilly Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    GunBroker has a 15 minute rule. Any bid made within the last 15 minutes sets the clock back to 15 minutes to go. I've seen them go for several re-sets. No bid sniping on GunBroker.
     
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  31. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill New Member Supporting Member

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    Guess the secret is to bid right before the 15 minute limit and watch closely. :) And be prepared to do it several times. (The last time I bought something on Gun Broker was a long time back...)
     
  32. ronn47

    ronn47 Where's the Scotch? Charter Member Benefactor Life Member

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    When I use GB I wait until about 16/17 minutes before the close and if the price is still below my max I'll put in the max I'll go and turn the PC off and check in the morning.
     
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  33. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    I was in for the long haul on a S&W Registered Magnum. I had no limit...I have done a good bit off buying and selling in the high stratosphere of the GB. Geezer is right...there is NO surefire method. Early or late...if it's something good, be prepared to go the distance. I am through with this item but am high right now with several days to go. Using info from ya'll, I have bid my max. We'll see.....Myrtle Beach gunshow at the end of the month....another opportunity to find a Pre B. While I am certain the newer guns are fine, I will stick as close to the original as I can get. It is the only one that interests me. Thanks for all the info, ya'll are the best.
     
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  34. R1E45

    R1E45 Active Member

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    Hope you end up with one whether it's GB or the upcoming show. I'm looking forward to seeing what they have. Our local shops don't tend to have much variety.
     
  35. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    Thanks Joseph, I'm on one now, we'll see. From what the CZ folks on here said, this is a good one. NOT New in the box, but shot in the box with all paperwork. I'm hoping the shot in the box condition will help me buy it and since it isn't pristine I can shoot the snot out of it. Never have signed on to the don't shoot it, it'll hurt the value. It's a 8C to 1K gun. That's what people were paying for them in the 1900s when they were buying smuggled guns. Believe me 1K in 1979 was A LOT more than 1K today.
     
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  36. Combat Diver

    Combat Diver Active Member

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    I seem to remember them being around $300 when I bought mine in West Germany (before the wall fell :eek:)

    CD
     
  37. Cameronswmp9

    Cameronswmp9 Happy to be here

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    I don't know a ton about them except they are awesome and I want some.
     
  38. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    Much higher here. The problem, as you know, is that you could not get one at all. The one that I had access to was brought in from Canada to Langley to my shooting buddy with lotsa shady contacts. The oldest sales trick in the world is called the take back...tell them they can't have it! This will be the only one I ever have, unless you sell me the Green Monster. I am just trying to squash the "you can't have it", syndrome.
    On a side note I got a call this morning from an old riding buddy of mine's wife. She said in December, she lost her mother, had to put her dog of 16 years down, and that my pal Jack had a stroke and had been in the hospital since December. I just hung up talking to him......I ain't got the words.....heartbreaking.
    We all know philosophically when we hear as young folks....nothing matters but your health......that it is true, BUT for me, from about 60 on, I really knew it. Money, travel, good food, "things"...all mean nothing if you don't feel good. Promise me tonight, that tomorrow, you will treat yourself to something you have wanted for a while. While you feel good enough to enjoy it.
    Years ago, I heard someone say..If you see something that might make you smile, even for a little while...get it. You gonna be dead a lot longer than you been alive. Ain't that the truth!!!!!
     
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  39. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    This is the end of my search for an old model CZ75. I wanted one that looked like the original ones that we could not get back in the 1900s. I settled for a NIB Commemorative with round trigger guard, a must for me, and some Commie markings. Should be here next week. Thanks folks for all the help!! Hope to see ya'll at the Myrtle Beach Gun Show I'll be next door to Geezer and Brangus at the Carolina Firearms Forum table.
     
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  40. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly Well-Known Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just picked up a CZ 75 B. Older version, what is the THINNEST grip made for this gun and where do I get it?
    I should get the other one I ordered tomorrow. I got this one today for a shooter and experimenter.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
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