Competition Shooting Translate to Real-World Shooting?

I can't view the video at work.

But I would guess that it depends on the type of competition shooting. Absolutely, anything that gives one hands on training in the handling and accurate shooting would at least translate somewhat. But don't expect tactical results from non-tactical training.

Long ago, on another site now defunct, a person asked if learning to play Guitar Hero would translate into being able to play guitar. My response was learning to play Guitar Hero would translate into being able to play the Guitar Hero controller. If they wanted to play a real guitar, then work with a real guitar.
 
Glad to see his answer on this. Love the statement “a gun fight is a shooting competition”
as a CCW holder, I became frustrated that I could not find a range that would allow me to draw from a holster. I started shooting an occasional IDPA match as a way to practice my skills of drawing from concealment. I learned very quickly that the vast majority of what I had read in magazines and on the internet was very bad advice. Most people like to talk about shooting, but very few actually do it. I learned how to draw different handguns ,from different positions, different holsters in different locations on my body. You can and should practice your draw and gun presentation at home. But standing in front of the mirror is not the same level of stress you will feel when the timer beeps at the beginning of a stage- the RO is watching , members of your squad are watching, and you are on the stage.
In my journey of shooting competitions - I have practiced shooting from all types of positions, angles, sitting , standing, moving forward , back , laterally , one handed , left handed ,from seats in vehicles, in low night , at night with weapon mounted light, in the extreme heat, cold, rain and snow. I know that I am a better shooter because of it
 
Most definitely helps.
-Any trigger time is good
-While some stages may not be “realistic” the fact they are new to you and get you moving around gives you some amount of stress factor which will bring out flaws in your technique and train you to think “on your feet”

On a personal note when I do go to competitions I usually take my carry gun (G19) and holster (when allowed). I have no chance of winning but for me it is to improve myself. I have been in squads with nationally ranked shooters and no one have ever looked down on my equipment of long times. I would encourage everyone to get out and shoot!
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
I can't view the video at work.

But I would guess that it depends on the type of competition shooting. Absolutely, anything that gives one hands on training in the handling and accurate shooting would at least translate somewhat. But don't expect tactical results from non-tactical training.

Long ago, on another site now defunct, a person asked if learning to play Guitar Hero would translate into being able to play guitar. My response was learning to play Guitar Hero would translate into being able to play the Guitar Hero controller. If they wanted to play a real guitar, then work with a real guitar.
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Guitar hero is to playing a real guitar, is like a nerf gun to a real gun.
 
The person that shoots competitions is way ahead of the average gun owner/ccw holder that only shoots once or twice a year. They have drawn their gun, identified shoot/no-shoot targets, moved with a gun in hand, shot from different positions, reloaded their gun, etc all under the pressure of the clock with others watching them do so.

I can't count the times I've seen a new shooter show up at an IDPA match with their carry gun and holster only to find out under pressure that their gear or technique didn't work. They were able to identify gun/gear issues at a match and fix them.

I love watching the new shooters that come to a match and stick with it every month, progress in gun handling and marksmanship skills. They are more confident in their abilities and they become competent gun handlers which is very important if they carry concealed out in the public.
 
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I will be honest. I used to be in the "it's just a game" camp, and I was wrong. I was on my "I was military and can't learn anything new" high horse, and I was wrong. Yes, it absolutely can translate. Maybe not all of it, all of the time, but it can absolutely, 100% translate to civilian/SD/HD, LEO-specific, and military/combat shooting.
 
Yes, to a point. The targets aren't shooting back.

That said, IDPA (even IPSC) is way ahead of static shooting. The 1st time shooting IDPA my hands were shaking. Now it's about awareness and focus. Yeah, I sometimes I 'fail to do right' (procedural). I'm very aware about cover, moving, shot placement, and reloads.
 
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virginia_slimjim said:
I think it depends on range. Needless to say, up close not so much but if an assailant is shooting at you from 20 feet +, it's gonna come in handy I imagine
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I think the belief in a “can’t miss distance” is dangerous. I have seen great shooters with fantastic equipment miss or get deltas at 10 feet. It was a 2 target array between two larger static arrays of targets where the idea was to shoot these two “on the move”. Admittedly it was a non rated match so I am sure they we’re pushing themselves to the limit but that illustrates how stress, even artificial can effect you.
 
I used to be on the fence about it.

Any practice you can get that elevates your heart rate, that gets you moving quickly for a purpose (position change, mag change, etc) where mistakes count against you so you try not to make them, all make you better. Certain styles of competition may help more than others but shooting five or seven yards at paper is little more than familiarization fire unless you’ve got a goal in mind (new gun, load test, red dot sighting etc)
 
11B CIB said:
I used to be on the fence about it.

Any practice you can get that elevates your heart rate, that gets you moving quickly for a purpose (position change, mag change, etc) where mistakes count against you so you try not to make them, all make you better. Certain styles of competition may help more than others but shooting five or seven yards at paper is little more than familiarization fire unless you’ve got a goal in mind (new gun, load test, red dot sighting etc)
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I think there's also a place for static shooting, getting the reps in. It build the foundation. But that only works if you are thinking about what you are doing. Once you put 500 rounds through the same hole and you are at the place of "not doing it so I can't miss but doing it until I can't get it wrong" it's time to move on. I think most skill acquisition is like that. But the folks who only do that and walk away saying "I'm good" are really doing themselves a huge disservice.
 
I RO in the neighborhood of 10-15 events a year in 3-GUN and Run n Gun. So I'm observing shooters under some level of stress in the neighborhood of 1,500 stages every year. It amazes me how quickly people fail under pressure. Just getting a reload done on the clock, or target ID and situational awareness is a critical aspect that competition helps with.

My completely unscientific response is that YES any competition shooting is likely to have real world benefits. Any trigger time where you're not just standing still has gotta be helpful.

I'll say with 100% confidence that Run n Gun is by far the better 'real world' emulator. In 3 Gun you have a stage brief, can watch other shooters go through the course, and your gear is purpose built. So, the shooting is beneficial but...

In Run n Gun you also get...
- Adjustments (load, scope setup, grabbing magazines, etc.) is most often done on the clock adding a bit of pressure
- Heart Rate elevated making for shaky hands
- Being tired makes your brain foggy (folks can't remember a 3 sentence stage brief...)
- You're thrown into a scenario with limited prep
- Gear is generally more 'real world' with stuff in the way of your holster, slings catching on stuff, etc.
- Stuff breaks/fails more frequently when you beat the crap out of it, so you learn to work through malfunctions on the clock

One of the more overlooked aspects of competition is simple stuff like reloading under pressure, or just knowing your stuff works.
 
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Tim said:
I RO in the neighborhood of 10-15 events a year in 3-GUN and Run n Gun. So I'm observing shooters under some level of stress in the neighborhood of 1,500 stages every year. It amazes me how quickly people fail under pressure. Just getting a reload done on the clock, or target ID and situational awareness is a critical aspect that competition helps with.

My completely unscientific response is that YES any competition shooting is likely to have real world benefits. Any trigger time where you're not just standing still has gotta be helpful.

I'll say with 100% confidence that Run n Gun is by far the better 'real world' emulator. In 3 Gun you have a stage brief, can watch other shooters go through the course, and your gear is purpose built. So, the shooting is beneficial but...

In Run n Gun you also get...
- Adjustments (load, scope setup, grabbing magazines, etc.) is most often done on the clock adding a bit of pressure
- Heart Rate elevated making for shaky hands
- Being tired makes your brain foggy (folks can't remember a 3 sentence stage brief...)
- You're thrown into a scenario with limited prep
- Gear is generally more 'real world' with stuff in the way of your holster, slings catching on stuff, etc.
- Stuff breaks/fails more frequently when you beat the crap out of it, so you learn to work through malfunctions on the clock

One of the more overlooked aspects of competition is simple stuff like reloading under pressure, or just knowing your stuff works.
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I don't know if run n' gun was a thing when we were doing work-ups for deployment, but those things you mentioned, we did a lot of them. Why? They work for the reasons you stated.

I loathe giving any credit for anything to the SEALs, one of the best and funnest events we did was at their training facility in the Chocolate Mountains, it was a timed event in pairs, I want to say maybe 15 miles, with a time limit, some station or event every half mile or so, with multipe physical events along the way. Now at almost-55 I would flat-out suck, but I would enjoy doing that again.
 
Without watching the video yet...
Yes, but it depends on the shooter and the club/attitude/stage design.
One club I shot at, was all rules and details. Another I used to shoot at, had the motto, "Shoot till you're happy!"
 
Chuckman said:
I don't know if run n' gun was a thing when we were doing work-ups for deployment, but those things you mentioned, we did a lot of them. Why? They work for the reasons you stated.

I loathe giving any credit for anything to the SEALs, one of the best and funnest events we did was at their training facility in the Chocolate Mountains, it was a timed event in pairs, I want to say maybe 15 miles, with a time limit, some station or event every half mile or so, with multipe physical events along the way. Now at almost-55 I would flat-out suck, but I would enjoy doing that again.
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Come on out to a Run n Gun! At 51 I am nowhere near the oldest guy and there are plenty of folks that walk the course.
 
Tim said:
Come on out to a Run n Gun! At 51 I am nowhere near the oldest guy and there are plenty of folks that walk the course.
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Broheim, Aside from some playing around at Ft. Bragg I have not seriously shot AR since before my cancer diagnosis, so... over 2 years, probably closer to 2 1/2. Targets are safe when I am around lol. Physically I could do it. Technically would be a challenge.
 
Chuckman said:
Broheim, Aside from some playing around at Ft. Bragg I have not seriously shot AR since before my cancer diagnosis, so... over 2 years, probably closer to 2 1/2. Targets are safe when I am around lol. Physically I could do it. Technically would be a challenge.
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meh...I suspect you'd do just fine. This crowd is all about "do YOUR best, not THE best".
 
Amp Mangum said:
I love watching the new shooters that come to a match and stick with it every month, progress in gun handling and marksmanship skills. They are more confident in their abilities and they become competent gun handlers which is very important if they carry concealed out in the public.
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As bad as I place now in IDPA shoots, I am probably 10-fold better than when I first started. I'm not much faster and probably won't ever be, but my accuracy has improved a lot, especially with longer shots and one-handed shooting. I still like to shoot a no-shoot target or two per match, just to keep them on their toes.
 
Amp Mangum said:
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"Muscle Memory" is actually shooting from your sub-concious.


A good example of sub-concious activity:

Using a turn signal... We dont actually have to think about using the turn signal, we automatically do it. We have done it so much that the "function" is burned into our sub-concious.

The best competition shooters shoot from the sub-concious.



As he says, muscles dont have memory...

Muscles do what your brain tells them to do.
 
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Competitions helps build confidence in your abilities, which helps you fight better in the streets. Shooting fast and accurate is the same in competitions as the streets. Making good decisions under stress is the same in competitions and the streets. Operating your equipment and making reloads under stress is the same in competitions as the streets. There maybe differences in tactics because of safety concerns on the range but without a doubt competitions benefit you in becoming less dead in the streets. I just wish I could shoot in more competitions. Ah but the day is coming when I’ll be done with this dang degree and I can get out there again.
 
You would be surprised how few people practice statically, and how even fewer shoot under manufactured stress like IPSC, three gun, or something as simple as shooting in different positions.
When I was an L.E.O. I shot IPSC/USPSA, and CQB matches with my duty gear for the simple stress factor.
You'd be sickened if you knew how many police officers shoot once a year....and no more.....
 
Average Joe said:
Competitions helps build confidence in your abilities, which helps you fight better in the streets. Shooting fast and accurate is the same in competitions as the streets. Making good decisions under stress is the same in competitions and the streets. Operating your equipment and making reloads under stress is the same in competitions as the streets. There maybe differences in tactics because of safety concerns on the range but without a doubt competitions benefit you in becoming less dead in the streets. I just wish I could shoot in more competitions. Ah but the day is coming when I’ll be done with this dang degree and I can get out there again.
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Benefit you in becoming less dead in the streets, that is the hope, right? Never forget the enemy has a vote, and once that first incoming round comes in, all bets are off. That said, Fortune does not favor the bold, Fortune favors the prepared.

I would like to see something like IPDA combined with FOF with simunitions.
 
Any practice helps train muscle memory and calmness under stress.

I had someone make the statement that us using blanks at robin sage for force on force wasn’t good training.

To that I replied that I disagreed. There are three things that it engrains in the participants in a safe environment.

First is muscle memory in how to move and react under fire. Second is to reinforce the ability to move toward fire and not away from it and third is the ability to think, shoot, communicate and maneuver in a chaotic environment.
 
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People think weird things.
I’ve heard many times things like “boxing is a game and really won’t help you in a street fight where there are no rules”.

I knew two brothers who were golden gloves champions. Their dad was also GG and a coach.

I assure you a “street fight” never went beyond a basic 1-2. It always ended with the “street fighter” who is just “built different” and can’t be stopped because “he just sees red” getting knocked the F out in seconds. Having never done anything accept telegraphing a wild hook, if they were lucky.

Practicing things makes you BETTER. Especially practicing the right things. Faster and more accurate is BETTER. Slower is not somehow faster, despite whatever your guru told you.
Thinking otherwise is stupid, frankly.
 
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Amp Mangum said:
The person that shoots competitions is way ahead of the average gun owner/ccw holder that only shoots once or twice a year. They have drawn their gun, identified shoot/no-shoot targets, moved with a gun in hand, shot from different positions, reloaded their gun, etc all under the pressure of the clock with others watching them do so.

I can't count the times I've seen a new shooter show up at an IDPA match with their carry gun and holster only to find out under pressure that their gear or technique didn't work. They were able to identify gun/gear issues at a match and fix them.

I love watching the new shooters that come to a match and stick with it every month, progress in gun handling and marksmanship skills. They are more confident in their abilities and they become competent gun handlers which is very important if they carry concealed out in the public.
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I shoot with the same holster, same gun (exact copy of carry gun), wearing my normal everyday clothes. I know im never going to win. I use it for practice.
-how was my draw
-how accurate was i on the timer
-how was my movement
-how was my transition
-what do I need to practice more and what can I afford to put less effort into

I love to see the LE/military using their duty gear, people using what they actually carry.

Just my humble opinion
 
smm72 said:
I shoot with the same holster, same gun (exact copy of carry gun), wearing my normal everyday clothes. I know im never going to win. I use it for practice.
-how was my draw
-how accurate was i on the timer
-how was my movement
-how was my transition
-what do I need to practice more and what can I afford to put less effort into

I love to see the LE/military using their duty gear, people using what they actually carry.

Just my humble opinion
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This is the way.
 
NKD said:
People think weird things.
I’ve heard many times things like “boxing is a game and really won’t help you in a street fight where there are no rules”.

I knew two brothers who were golden gloves champions. Their dad was also GG and a coach.

I assure you a “street fight” never went beyond a basic 1-2. It always ended with the “street fighter” who is just “built different” and can’t be stopped because “he just sees red” getting knocked the F out in seconds. Having never done anything accept telegraphing a wild hook, if they were lucky.

Practicing things makes you BETTER. Especially practicing the right things. Faster and more accurate is BETTER. Slower is not somehow faster, despite whatever your guru told you.
Thinking otherwise is stupid, frankly.
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What's the old joke? How'd you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice.

Being able to demonstrate a skill accurately and quickly is the desired outcome. I know we (people on the forum) have gone a couple rounds over the "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" thing. I have given that some thought over a long period of time when it comes to skill acquisition.

I think that phrase is commonly misunderstood or misapplied, or taken out of context. If there are skills which require multiple steps you have to go slow when you start in order to master the steps. And if you get to step three and screw up, the expectation is to go back to step one and start over. You continue doing the reps slowly until it becomes efficient and you don't think "step one, step two" etc, you continue doing the reps until they become one single step, at which time you start speeding the process, and it becomes more efficient.

I think it is a huge mistake to start slowly and master the steps and get comfortable with that and stay there without progressing through efficiency and thereby becoming faster.

Slower is not faster. But becoming faster starts by starting slow, and increasing efficiency through multiple reps.
 
Chuckman said:
Slower is not faster. But becoming faster starts by starting slow, and increasing efficiency through multiple reps.
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I've taken a few lessons with Chris Tilley to try to figure out this red dot thing, and during that there was a good example of this. I was drawing really fast, getting the gun into position really fast, pausing, then firing, then transitioning really fast (all relative here). He told me to slow down, to bring the gun up slowly enough so that I could pickup the dot 'on the way' as it came into my vision and could break the shot when it immediately was on target without a pause. Go as slow as needed, but never stop. Once I could do that (which I'm still working on as evidence in the match videos from yesterday) then go faster and faster until it's all one very fast movement without pauses. No start/stop means more efficiency but to get fast I have to go slow....

The whole 'slow is fast' thing may have morphed too far into FUDD lore and turned into a caricature of what it originally meant.
 
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