Crimping, not sure that I like Dillon

[GymB]

Below is a pic of two dummy rounds that I made tonight. I’m setting up the xl650 to load 41mag so was setting up the dies. The dillon crimp seemed really strange to me, it didn’t turn in. I made another the same except used an rcbs crimp die.

RCBS typically uses a roll crimp for revolver cartridges. On the dillon sdb I get a roll crimp on 38spcl and 357mag that looks just fine.

This is my first revolver loading on the 650.

What do you think of the crimps, I gotta think the dillon is swaging down the driving band.

 

[Leadchunker]

That doesn’t look right to me either.

 

[Etruett]

I changed all of my dies to Lee on my 650 except for the powder drop. Love the press not impressed with the dies. I did modify the seating plug on my Dillon to seat soft 38 wadcutters with no damage but i still use the Lee Crimp die. Something is definitely wrong with the chimp on the left

 

[georgel]

That looks like a deep taper crimp, to me.

I always thought the driving band was the first band to engage the rifling. In this case the band ahead of the crimp. Keith was always recommending a thick driving band that would engage the rifling without shearing. IIRC

 

[GymB]

Sent a note to Dillon, they should get back to me later this year. Until then I’ll just put in the rcbs die.

I always thought the driving band was the first band to engage the rifling. In this case the band ahead of the crimp. Keith was always recommending a thick driving band that would engage the rifling without shearing. IIRC

You are probably right, thanks, but what do I call the band behind the front band?

 

[Charlie]

It looks to me as if you have screwed the Dillon crimping die down way too far. Screw the RCBS die down another two complete rotations and see if the crimps do not look about the same. Back off that Dillon die quite a bit and see if it does not cure your problem. It may not but is worth a try.

 

[GymB]

It looks to me as if you have screwed the Dillon crimping die down way too far. Screw the RCBS die down another two complete rotations and see if the crimps do not look about the same. Back off that Dillon die quite a bit and see if it does not cure your problem. It may not but is worth a try.

No doubt that this was going too far. The “accu-crimp” is marketed as a taper crimp that becomes a roll crimp, so I kept moving the die down in 1/4 turn increments, never got a roll and gave up. I’ll repeat it again a few times tomorrow with different bullets.

 

[Charlie]

I will have to look at mine tomorrow but have never noticed a problem.

 

[georgel]

Sent a note to Dillon, they should get back to me later this year. Until then I’ll just put in the rcbs die.

You are probably right, thanks, but what do I call the band behind the front band?

This site causes me to vet all my assumed knowledge. Which is good, because it either validates, corrects or modifies what I "think" I know.

Apparently, all full diameter bands are "driving "bands. But, I thought remembered reading Keith put a lot of emphasis on the first one. I think some designs don't make the front full diameter and some designs make them thin. But, a true Keith design has 3 equal "driving bands". The idea being, to keep the bullet stable as ti transitions from cylinder throat to forcing cone.

Anyway, yes it looks like a taper crimp adjusted deep. Should have hit the roll by that point, if there is one. I know Lee dies usually offer a combined taper/roll. I've taken to just seating with the seating die and using the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Dies to crimp. Not all FCD's are the same. The carbide ones resize the case to factory specs while crimping. More critical for autos and feeding.

 

[Slacker]

Is the case length uniform?
Crimping revo on SWC is a PITA if case length isn't the same.

 

[John]

Try seating both bullets a little deeper, and see what the crimp looks like. I don't think the case can go all the way into the crimp groove.

 

[GymB]

true Keith design has 3 equal "driving bands". The idea being, to keep the bullet stable as ti transitions from cylinder throat to forcing cone.

That sounds very familiar.

Is the case length uniform?
Crimping revo on SWC is a PITA if case length isn't the same.

They are.

Try seating both bullets a little deeper, and see what the crimp looks like. I don't think the case can go all the way into the crimp groove.

Will try tonight. A roll crimp die needs to be large enough for the bullet to pass through but then small enough to catch the case mouth and roll it into the crimp groove. I’ve never seen the need to try to push the case down to the bottom of the crimp groove, but I generally do roll the case down to the same diameter as the bullet, so it is entirely within the groove.

Have a couple sets of Dillon dies for 38/357, going to try them also, if they do the same as the 41 dies I’ll stick with RCBS.

 

[Toprudder]

I also think the Dillon crimp die was adjusted down too far. However, it may not apply enough of a roll crimp as it is.

I normally crimp in a separate step, but if the bullet has an actual crimp groove (not just a cannelure) then I have no problem crimping and seating in one step. The Dillon seating die will not do this, however.

 

[GymB]

Couldn’t wait, put on a pot of oatmeal and headed out to the shop.

having noticed that the bullets are seated a bit cockeyed I lowered the powder die 1/8 turn to get more expansion.

at @John suggestion I lowered the seating die to get the case just below the top of the crimp groove. Seated bullet looks like this (ignore the fleck of powder coat, I’ll deal with that later)


backed off the crimp die 1.5 turns and then advance in 1/4 turns which does this (in sequence I hope, if not note the numbering on the cases)


It isn’t the roll crimp that I’m used to, but I think it’ll work fine.

short version: user error, must have accidentally turned 1/2 instead of 1/4 and missed the sweet spot.

Thanks all

 

[John]

I'm not familiar with the newer Dillon dies, so no help there. It still doesn't look quite like I would think, but the bottom line is that if the oal hasn't increased on the last round in a cylinder, and you're not sizing the bullet down, it should work fine.

I've got a Redding profile crimp die you can borrow if you want to try it out.

 

[contender]

First off, I use Dillon's excellent 650 for a lot of ammo. I also shoot competition. I hunt with a handgun. For (2) years, prepping for an elk hunt, I'd shoot a pair of SA revolvers almost daily, (3) cylinder fulls each, to where, when I headed out on my hunts, I had fired over 3500 rounds of cast & PCed bullets in 45 Colt & 454 Casull.
I use Dillon dies, including the crimp die.

Proper loading as proven by IMHSA shooters,, neck tension is more important than a roll crimp.

The first thing I'd suggest is to back off the depth of the crimping, to where you just remove the "mouth flare," and load a few & shoot for accuracy, at at least 50 yds. Check the gun after each shot to look for "bullet jump" to see if you are getting any. If so, stop prior to binding the cylinder. Then load a few more, slightly increasing the crimp depth by 1/4 turn. Proper neck tension will prevent bullet jump, and provide the best accuracy. Do this until you see where your accuracy is the best, and bullet jump non-existent.
And the 454 is known & proven to be a troublesome one to stop bullet jumping. Yet, my adjustments in my Dillon didn't have any issues,, and when practicing at 100 yds, getting regular 4"-5" groups, it's proven to be quite accurate.

 

[GymB]

First off, I use Dillon's excellent 650 for a lot of ammo. I also shoot competition. I hunt with a handgun. For (2) years, prepping for an elk hunt, I'd shoot a pair of SA revolvers almost daily, (3) cylinder fulls each, to where, when I headed out on my hunts, I had fired over 3500 rounds of cast & PCed bullets in 45 Colt & 454 Casull.
I use Dillon dies, including the crimp die.

Proper loading as proven by IMHSA shooters,, neck tension is more important than a roll crimp.

The first thing I'd suggest is to back off the depth of the crimping, to where you just remove the "mouth flare," and load a few & shoot for accuracy, at at least 50 yds. Check the gun after each shot to look for "bullet jump" to see if you are getting any. If so, stop prior to binding the cylinder. Then load a few more, slightly increasing the crimp depth by 1/4 turn. Proper neck tension will prevent bullet jump, and provide the best accuracy. Do this until you see where your accuracy is the best, and bullet jump non-existent.
And the 454 is known & proven to be a troublesome one to stop bullet jumping. Yet, my adjustments in my Dillon didn't have any issues,, and when practicing at 100 yds, getting regular 4"-5" groups, it's proven to be quite accurate.

I’ve gone to no crimp on my auto loader ammo and have had no problems. Given the bullet weights and velocity in the magnums I’d assumed that I’d need some crimp, but can’t hurt to try reducing them to see of I’ve been solving for a problem that doesn’t exist.

@John, I have that Redding profile crimp die in one caliber, maybe 45-70, and as I recall it works well. Gonna try to solve with the tools I have at hand, but thanks for the offer!

 

[OldNascar]

That crimp pictured is not from a roll crimp die. I’d change out the present die for a honest to goodness roll crimp die. Good luck.