CVA Scout Takedown in 300BLK, load development

[Jayne]

Been eyeing one of these for a while now, as a potential replacement for the Ruger Ranch 300BLK I had prior. I never could get it to the level of accuracy I wanted with subsonics, but apparently I don't learn so I'm going to try it again.

It's heavier than it looks, but really short without any sort of action/magazine setup and while a single shot is not tacticool at all, it's very 'on brand' for me as the kids say. Punching paper quietly from the bench is all this will be for.

Other than the rifle itself I had everything else on hand, so the 1-8x vortex, the rings, stock pack, bipod, etc.



Took it out today with some factory 110gr which is all I had left from the Ruger days, and it was acceptably accurate considering how out of practice I am with bench rest stuff and the fact that the center reticle dot was larger than the stickers I was shooting at @100 yards. It's unlikely to be a tack driver so more glass is not the answer. I'm just going to keep saying that until I convince myself.

I'll post any load results here along with accuracy results.

Now off to find some heavy projectiles.

 

[Jayne]

This probably should get moved to the reloading section....

Some testing today, and the results are encouraging for a first outing. I had the target at 50 yards and just doubled the 5 round group size to come up with the "MOA" rating of the load. You'll note a few super super crappy loads, both were keyholing. Bummer the 208gr didn't work right out of the gate, I just bought a few hundred of those from another member. Better figure those out!

 

[clay_fv]

Def send to the reloading forum.

Are those 208 pills specifically made for subsonic? I keep seeing people using rounds NEVER designed for subsonic 300blk and saying they can't get accuracy out of them. If you want accuracy, the Hornady sub-x 190gr pills are outstanding. I'm also very happy with Berry's 220gr hard cast plated rounds out of my 9" build.

Ultimate reloader on youtube did a good test with those Hornady 190gr pills and the Berry's:

 

[Jayne]

Are those 208 pills specifically made for subsonic?

There is subsonic loading data for them from a variety of sources so I was just assuming they're OK to use.

I'm thinking the sticking point is the fixed chamber 16" barrel vs the 8" semi-auto they're usually loading for.

 

[clay_fv]

There is subsonic loading data for them from a variety of sources so I was just assuming they're OK to use.

I'm thinking the sticking point is the fixed chamber 16" barrel vs the 8" semi-auto they're usually loading for.

Well the question is not is there subsonic loadings for them, it's is the bullet itself designed for subsonic use, or supersonic? Most 308 pills are designed for supersonic flight, and they become unstable at subsonic flight. So you need a bullet that's specifically designed for subsonic only flight. Not only that, they have zero expansion in tissue. Like... ZERO. So they're bad for hunting AND self defense. If you're just wanting plinking fun, then absolutely anything will work. Sounds like you're looking for better accuracy though.

 

[Jayne]

Sounds like you're looking for better accuracy though.

quiet paper punching is the only objective.

 

[Flashpoint]

Well the question is not is there subsonic loadings for them, it's is the bullet itself designed for subsonic use, or supersonic? Most 308 pills are designed for supersonic flight, and they become unstable at subsonic flight. So you need a bullet that's specifically designed for subsonic only flight. Not only that, they have zero expansion in tissue. Like... ZERO. So they're bad for hunting AND self defense. If you're just wanting plinking fun, then absolutely anything will work. Sounds like you're looking for better accuracy though.

If the twist rate is sufficient for the length of the bullet why would the design of the bullet matter? What makes a bullet more accurate for subsonic use vs supersonic?

 

[clay_fv]

If the twist rate is sufficient for the length of the bullet why would the design of the bullet matter? What makes a bullet more accurate for subsonic use vs supersonic?

This really does need to be in the reloading forum. However, I believe it can be summed up in one word: stability. Bullets that are designed for much higher speeds are made long and slender so they can be stable at high speeds. At lower speeds they can't stabilize and will pitch and yaw.

I'll pull in @Michael458 to get his thoughts on the subject. He also has extensive experience with the 300blk.

 

[Jayne]

This really does need to be in the reloading forum.

Moved by the magic of poking a sleeping admin.

 

[Michael458]

I'll pull in @Michael458 to get his thoughts on the subject. He also has extensive experience with the 300blk.

I think two things, one will not care much for my opinion on sub-sonic in .308 caliber...... and second, most important, I don't really have any experience loading or dealing
with sub-sonic in 300 BLK........ 99.9% of my work with 300 BLK is on the higher side. With due respect I am not well versed in sub-sonic and can be of little assistance.

Now if you need good information that includes actual real pressure data for the higher end of operations, I can help and guide....... and would be happy to......

To that end, there is nothing more devastating in 300 BLK than a 100 Flat Base Raptor in front of 20.3/WW 296 roughly depending on the barrel 2550 fps in 16 inches of gun at 54000-55000 PSI tested over several years........ In 300 BLK for Terminal Performance, there is no where to go from there...... there are some other decent bullets/loads, but nothing
as wicked or proven over the years as the 100 FB Raptor.......

But Sub-Sonic...... I am not much help on that, and it seems that quite paper punching is the goal and not terminal performance...... and, nothing wrong with that either.......

 

[clay_fv]

Well poo. I thought you had good experience with subsonic too.

That raptor bullet, is that a Lehigh pill? I'm curious what I could get from my 9" barrel. The only super I've worked with is Hornady 125 FMJ. Surprisingly good accuracy.

 

[Catfish]

To that end, there is nothing more devastating in 300 BLK than a 100 Flat Base Raptor in front of 20.3/WW 296 roughly depending on the barrel 2550 fps in 16 inches of gun at 54000-55000 PSI tested over several years........ In 300 BLK for Terminal Performance, there is no where to go from there...... there are some other decent bullets/loads, but nothing
as wicked or proven over the years as the 100 FB Raptor.......

That's going in the reloading book - thank you!

I have two subsonic loads for my 10.5" 300 AAC:
203 gr coated LRN over H110 tuned for 1050 fps. This one is my gong-bonger plinking load. So much fun when the steel is making more noise than the rifle.
123 gr plated Xtreme over a few grains of Unique for short range stealth backyard squirrel eradication, also tuned for 1050 fps. This is good for minute of tree-rat to 25 yds and it's super quiet... doesn't even cycle the action.

 

[Michael458]

That raptor bullet, is that a Lehigh pill? I'm curious what I could get from my 9" barrel.

Cutting Edge Bullets............. Raptor
That load will be around 2300 fps in a 9-10 inch gun.

The Lehigh Chaos bullets are similar to the Raptor, but maintain less base for depth of penetration, I think they are 110 and 115 and you can run 19.2-19.5 WW 296 for 54000 to 56000 PSI.......

 

[clay_fv]

Cutting Edge Bullets............. Raptor
That load will be around 2300 fps in a 9-10 inch gun.

The Lehigh Chaos bullets are similar to the Raptor, but maintain less base for depth of penetration, I think they are 110 and 115 and you can run 19.2-19.5 WW 296 for 54000 to 56000 PSI.......

I just watched a 8.6 blackout test a few days ago where the bullet drilled through 3 blocks of ballistic gel and barely seemed to notice. Sick destruction from a subsonic bullet and unbelievable penetration. Same company? I assume they sell just the bullets? If so got a link?

 

[Catfish]

For the Chaos bullet:

Bullets for Reloading - Lehigh Defense

Lehigh Defense, LLC. - A leading manufacturer of top quality bullets.

lehighdefense.com

100gn FB Raptor:

.308 100gr Flat Base Raptor

50ct This bullet was designed with crimping grooves placed precisely for 300 Whisper, 300 Blackout, 300 WT as well as .308 Winchester. These come with Raptor Tips™ already installed. The Flat Base Raptors are manufactured out of solid brass bar stock on a CNC Swiss style lathe. Instead of...

cuttingedgebullets.com

 

[Get Off My Lawn]

Well poo. I thought you had good experience with subsonic too.

That raptor bullet, is that a Lehigh pill? I'm curious what I could get from my 9" barrel. The only super I've worked with is Hornady 125 FMJ. Surprisingly good accuracy.

I was very surprised at the accuracy of the 100g raptor in my 10” 300BLK AR.

 

[clay_fv]

For the Chaos bullet:

Bullets for Reloading - Lehigh Defense

Lehigh Defense, LLC. - A leading manufacturer of top quality bullets.

lehighdefense.com

100gn FB Raptor:

.308 100gr Flat Base Raptor

50ct This bullet was designed with crimping grooves placed precisely for 300 Whisper, 300 Blackout, 300 WT as well as .308 Winchester. These come with Raptor Tips™ already installed. The Flat Base Raptors are manufactured out of solid brass bar stock on a CNC Swiss style lathe. Instead of...

cuttingedgebullets.com

Damn, them boys expensive! Sounds like I need to try some though. I've never considered my 300blk for anything but home defense. Sounds like it can be more though.

 

[georgel]

This really does need to be in the reloading forum. However, I believe it can be summed up in one word: stability. Bullets that are designed for much higher speeds are made long and slender so they can be stable at high speeds. At lower speeds they can't stabilize and will pitch and yaw.

I'll pull in @Michael458 to get his thoughts on the subject. He also has extensive experience with the 300blk.

I believe you are correct. I seem to remember a detailed explanation that included discussion on the aerodynamics, shock wave and turbulence generated during bullet flight at various speeds. Although, the actual discussion was about bullets transitioning from supersonic to sub-sonic over range. I believe boat tail angles were key.

 

[Bunsen]

I've owned the precursor to that CVA Scout when they offered the Apex. It was a was very lite and handy rifle with great accuracy for the supersonics, but I could never quite get the subsonics dialed in. I upgraded to a custom 19" .300BLK bolt action after a lengthy forum discussion with @Michael458 over the differences of .300BLK vs 300 HAMR vs 7.62x40.

Although I never achieved the highest level of accuracy with .300BLK subs in my CVA I did find that using the Redding taper crimp die (#85327) helped tighten things up nicely.

In addition to Cutting Edge and Lehigh Defense, Discreet Ballistics is another boutique bullet vendor that also offers loaded ammo. They have partnered with Q in bringing the 8.6 BLK to market.

https://discreetballistics.com/product-category/300blk/

.300 blackout recipes?

Anybody have a tried and true .300 recipe they care to share? Looking to dial in a general purpose hog and range load, unsuppressed.

carolinafirearmsforum.com

7.62X40.... A 300BLK on Steroids

For those not familiar with 7.62X40 it really is just a slightly longer 300 BLK. I forget the chaps name that developed the cartridge, but it really is pretty decent, and pretty serious little cartridge. It has slightly more case capacity than a 300 BLK, and on average you can get 150-200...

carolinafirearmsforum.com

 

[Michael458]

Damn, them boys expensive! Sounds like I need to try some though. I've never considered my 300blk for anything but home defense. Sounds like it can be more though.

I use the 100 Raptor in all my .308 caliber cartridges, it will do anything I will ever need to do in .308, from 300 BLK, 7.62X40, 30-30, 308 Winchester and 300 Winchester......

They are not for shooting cans......... they are serious bullets for peak Terminal Performance.........

 

[Jayne]

Although I never achieved the highest level of accuracy with .300BLK subs in my CVA I did find that using the Redding taper crimp die (#85327) helped tighten things up nicely.

Interesting. I was running no crimp on these because, well there is no action so I didn't think it would be required. Now I'm tempted to load up that exact same crappy load as before (still have 5 left to re-test) but this time add a little crimp with the same die setting I was using in my bolt gun.

 

[Bunsen]

Interesting. I was running no crimp on these because, well there is no action so I didn't think it would be required. Now I'm tempted to load up that exact same crappy load as before (still have 5 left to re-test) but this time add a little crimp with the same die setting I was using in my bolt gun.

I have zero evidence as to why it helped, but my working theory is that is provides a more consistent neck tension and thus bullet release that may help reduce velocity & pressure variances!?

Also, if you haven't check your chamber yet my CVA Apex barrel (made by Bergara) was throated LONG thus even subsonics loaded with 200+ bullets had a significant jump to the lands. Although I'm uncertain how significant that may be.

Lastly, I don't think I included it with my .300BLK supersonic load recipes, but the Speer 110gr JHP (#1835) is an inexpensive plinker & hunting bullet that was surprisingly just as accurate as the Vmax & Armageddon 110g tipped bullets at 100yds!! They have been very hard to find but if you stumble across any I'd snatch them up! They will not feed well in a semi or bolt action, thus they are perfect for a breech loader.

Speer 30cal 110gr Varmint Jacketed Hollow Point #1835

Product Information Caliber: 30cal Bullet Diameter: 0.308” Bullet Weight: 110 Grains OAL: 0.620" Bullet Style: Jacketed Hollow Point G1 BC: 0.150 Part Number: 1835 Quantity: 100

www.bluecollarreloading.com

 

[Jayne]

Added to the data today. Had 3 different loads that were printing 0.65" 5 shot groups at 50 which translates roughly to 1.3 MOA. That's pretty good for subs from what I've seen so far.



The RE7 load is interesting, I'm going to drop that down by 0.1gr and see if it's still as accurate around 1020 fps, it's just a touch too fast as it is. The 11gr CFE BLK with the 208gr ELD-m though, that's a good one. Might go up 0.1gr just to see what it does but if it stays that consistent then I know it's going to be accurate and subsonic in various conditions.

There is still a lot of shooter variability in there as well, the 8.1 Lil'Gun under the ELD-x 220gr... first day it was 1.2 MOA and today it was 2.1 MOA and those rounds were loaded at the same time. All a loose trigger nut.

I'm also starting to question my RCBS scale, it's not holding zero always even after calibration. It's 20+ years old at this point, might be getting cranky.

 

[Jayne]

Little more data from today. I had some leftovers of the 220gr SMK and loaded up two test loads of 4 rounds each. So they're not 5 round groups, only 4, but they're 0.6 and 0.5 MOA. That's some accurate subsonic!

Nothing too exciting with the rest of them, kinda made things worse on some changing the charge but that's why we do it to see what happens.




The 220gr SMK with CFE BLK is a done deal, I won't change that load at all and will use the 11.2gr version once I move to 100 yards to see if it really holds that sub-MOA promise.

The other loads I'm making up to test are:



I have a lot of the 175gr projectiles so I'm trying to get a sub 2 MOA plinking subsonic, just enough to be quiet and ring the steel, not for paper punching.

The major bummer here is that I'm using WSR primers and I'm down to my last 50 or so of those. I have rem 7 1/2 and CCI... really hope those just sorta work and I don't have to start this process over.

 

[thaifighter]

The Makers 200 gr Rex is a very nice mono sub bullet. They are easy to stabilize and run great out of my 8" AR with a SiCo omega and ~1060 fps. I haven't got the recipe right now but it's pretty straight forward and cycled the rifle reliably.

The Barnes 110gr Tac_TX is my go-to for whitetail. That was once-fired brass, cci 41, 20.1gr of h110 at 2.25 COAL.

Nosler 220gr custom comps fly great as subs from my 1in7. I am not shooting them very far, but accuracy is within spec and reasonably I can hold a 125yard point-blank shot for a 10" kill-zone. with a 100 yard zero at 1050fps and good energy retention.

I'll see what I can dig up on my subs...

 

[thaifighter]

and SPS has a sale on the CC 220 blems that I shoot in my subs...

https://www.shootersproshop.com/30-caliber-220gr-hpbt-custom-competition-100ct-blem.html

 

[Jayne]

and SPS has a sale on the CC 220 blems that I shoot in my subs...

The blems make me cautious in this application. Yes, it saves money on every shot but if I get wonky accuracy, or fliers, or whatever is it the defective bullet causing it or my skill? I would rather it always be my skill, that can be improved. Nothing I can do about inconsistent equipment except try to avoid it.

 

[Jayne]

Slight change to the plan, this is what I've actually loaded up for the next session:



The big mystery is the change from Hornady brass to CBC and from WSR to CCI primers. Going to be interesting how sensitive that CFEBLK+SMK loading is.

Interesting to me is how for the same weigh the SMKs need a little more powder behind them to match velocities with the ELDs. Black magic.

 

[Jayne]

Going to take another crack at the Missouri cast 215gr stuff as well. I can't get them stable with CFE BLK at all, thinking maybe more pressure at the same velocity might work? Could the hard cast be pressed into the rifling a bit better with more pressure? The lil'gun loads for subs are 30% higher CUP than the CFE BLK at the same velocity, so I'll try that first.

 

[Jayne]

Good news/bad news sorta thing. I make up some of the 220gr SMKs with the new projectiles and they're just as accurate as the old batch. The size here is 0.9 MOA but that's with a flyer:



Maybe that's the load, or maybe that's me. 4 touching and then 1 off like that?

The bad news is that the same projectile and powder charge with a CCI primer in a different case is 2.1 MOA. I'm hoping that's the brass because I have exactly 8 of the WSR left and plenty of the CCI. I'll use those last 8 to make up a test batch of WSR + new brass, and old brass + CCI.

The cast bullets were too fast and crap for accuracy, and my 175gr loads were also pretty much junk. A lot of vertical stringing today, can't remember what that's a sign of.



I'll try once more with the cast dropping the charge to 7.8, and the ELD-x 220gr at 7.9. Probably drop the 175gr down to 5.6gr for one more go, see if keeping them under 1000 fps makes them suddenly accurate like their 220gr cousins.

 

[Jayne]

Fortune has smiled upon me, and I've traded for more WSR so I can now properly test the effects of the primers and brass separately. Whew.

The next batch of test loads:



I had 8 of the original WSRs left, so I made up batches of 4. Better than a 3 round group, not quite as good as a 5 but we're improvising here. I'm testing the old vs. new WSRs in hornady brass, the WSRs in the CBC brass and the CCIs in the Hornady brass, which should answer the questions:

- is it the primer or the brass that caused the change in accuracy?
- if it's the brass, then do the CCIs work as well as the WSRs in the 'good' brass?
- are the new and old WSRs the same?

If old primers + "old brass but neck sized instead of full sized" don't produce solid accuracy then my guess is it's a neck tension issue and I can tackle that next.

The RE7 load is me just trying another thing to get those cast bullets to fly right subsonically. If this one doesn't give us anything even resembling accuracy at low speeds then I'll just work up a supersonic plinking load with them and CFEBLK since I'm most likely to keep that powder on hand.

 

[Jayne]

So... the scope base came loose. I thought I loctighted it and torqued it down, but apparently I did not actually do it, I just thought about it.

Anyway, here's the results from the last test after I hand tightened stuff at the range. The 4th line is the new batch of WSR primers and while it's 2x the size of the original WSR primers... it was one flyer that screwed up the group. I'm hoping that was just me.



I'm going to load up #4 since that's the component mix I have and start shooting more groups to try to isolate me from the load.

Actually happy about #5, it's only 3 MOA but if it stays that way after I drop the charge 0.1gr to keep it subsonic it will make a great cheap steel blaster. As long and the rifle is quiet and the impact on the steel is loud, that's all that matters.

 

[Sasquatch]

"Inexpensive subsonic plinking ammo" and 220 SMK don't belong in the same chapter.

I'll give you a bunch of 217 and 240 grain Gallant cast bullets for you to try!

Gallant .30 Caliber/ .310mm Flat Point 240gr Reloading Bullets - 250 Count

Gallant .30 Caliber/ .310mm Flat Point 240gr Reloading Bullets - 250 Count - The polymer coating used on these bullets is Hi-Tek Coating.

www.sportsmans.com

Gallant 30 Caliber BT 217gr Reloading Bullets - 500 Count

Gallant 30 Caliber BT 217gr Reloading Bullets - 500 Count - The polymer coating used on these bullets is Hi-Tek Coating. The bullet is a 217gr Boat Tail sized to .310.

www.sportsmans.com

 

[Jayne]

Range trip yesterday and moved things out to 100 yards with the suppressor on, a full test. Worst group was 1.5" which isn't horrible but not where I wanted to be on this.

The cause is pretty obvious:



Couple of nice shots, and then a keyhole. Happened several times. It was 20+ degrees cooler at the range yesterday than in previous tests, so while I didn't have the chronograph setup (it was too busy to be messing around) I'm guessing that they've slowed down enough to be unstable.

I'm going to up it to 11.3gr of CFEBLK under the 220gr SMK. That will move it closer to 1000 fps.... I really hope there isn't a "summer" and "winter" load required.

 

[Jayne]

"Inexpensive subsonic plinking ammo" and 220 SMK don't belong in the same chapter.

The plinkers are the 215gr cast bullets, not the SMKs. I was happily ringing steel out to 150 yards yesterday with the cheap subs, ran out before I could figure out the drop at 200 but I've got the data to get me there next time.

I'm lubing the cast bullets before seating but I still get some 'shavings' coming off some. I'm presuming that's where some of the inaccuracies come from, the bullets aren't quite even? I've never really messed with cast stuff before, not sure what to expect.