Defensive Gun Use: What happens if the threat is not over when the police arrive?

P01135809

P01135809

Member
Charter Life Member
Benefactor
Multi-Factor Enabled
Joined
Dec 19, 2016
Messages
5,285
Location
Outerspace near Uranus
Rating - 100%
44   0   0
https://www.chicagotribune.com/subu...ing-jemel-roberson-police-20181114-story.html

Haven't seen this story yet. Sorry if it is a repost.

I often hear "put down your weapon and wait for the police", but what do you do if you are still engaging the threat when they get there...

This SUCKS!

We will probably never know what REALLY happened. I can imagine being so focused on a threat that I did not hear verbal commands....
 
The police will show up fearing for thier lives and kill you, your dog, and maybe shoot your wife and children, even if by accident.

For a bunch of Heroes (TM) they're scared of their own shadows, and terrified of the public.

A security guard stopped a mass shooting, managed to not kill the shooter but was holding him until the Hero Second Responders (TM) could arrive - and they murdered him.
 
Last edited:
Roberson, who was black, was working security at the bar. The preliminary report says that Roberson was wearing “plain black clothing with no markings readily identifying him as a Security Guard,” and was “armed with a gun in the west parking lot” of the bar when the Midlothian officer, who is white and was responding to a “shots fired” call at the bar, came upon him.


I swear....indoctrination. If you aren't racist.....they will make you think you are, or that everything relates to race.

What color uniforms were the officers wearing?
What kind of patrol cars did they ride up in?
Guess those benign facts don't matter. But race HAS to matter SOMEHOW.
 
vp9c said:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/subu...ing-jemel-roberson-police-20181114-story.html

Haven't seen this story yet. Sorry if it is a repost.

I often hear "put down your weapon and wait for the police", but what do you do if you are still engaging the threat when they get there...

This SUCKS!

We will probably never know what REALLY happened. I can imagine being so focused on a threat that I did not hear verbal commands....
Click to expand...
It’s best to call them a few days after the incident so they can write up a report. If you wait to call chances are good you might live.
 
Sneakymedic said:
Roberson, who was black, was working security at the bar. The preliminary report says that Roberson was wearing “plain black clothing with no markings readily identifying him as a Security Guard,” and was “armed with a gun in the west parking lot” of the bar when the Midlothian officer, who is white and was responding to a “shots fired” call at the bar, came upon him.


I swear....indoctrination. If you aren't racist.....they will make you think you are, or that everything relates to race.

What color uniforms were the officers wearing?
What kind of patrol cars did they ride up in?
Guess those benign facts don't matter. But race HAS to matter SOMEHOW.
Click to expand...

This has already been turned into a race issue by many that are on the news...It's a shame in my opinion...

If you try to put yourself in the shoes of the police...I'm responding to a active shooter situation...the "bad guy" is the one with the gun...that is NOT a crazy conclusion...

I am not willing to blindly believe that a white police officer was like "my lucky day! I get to justifiably shoot a black guy"

I am more willing to believe the narrative that the police officer felt just justified shooting an "armed suspect that was not complying with my orders" and race was irrelevant.

This is a tough situation. I am more likely to put "blame" on the officer than the victim, but can potentially "see" the officer's side.

Unfortunately I think neither side will see the situation objectively and one-sided narratives will prevail on both sides...
 
Because of the many added dangers it presents I decided a long time ago that I'm not going to hold anyone. If they want to leave that's fine by me. I'll have a good description for the police.
To the OP's question, I think this choice makes it *extremely* unlikely to still be engaged with an active threat when the police arrive.
 
vp9c said:
I am not willing to blindly believe that a white police officer was like "my lucky day! I get to justifiably shoot a black guy"

I am more willing to believe the narrative that the police officer felt just justified shooting an "armed suspect that was not complying with my orders" and race was irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Multiple eyewitnesses from the crowd say no orders to drop the weapon were given, and many statements from eyewitnesses plainly state the crowd was telling the police upon arrival that the guy was a security guard.
 
SPM said:
Multiple eyewitnesses from the crowd say no orders to drop the weapon were given, and many statements from eyewitnesses plainly state the crowd was telling the police upon arrival that the guy was a security guard.
Click to expand...

This is disturbing.

Just like I can imagine that the victim might not have heard the commands, I can imagine the cop might have been pumped on adrenaline and not heard/comprehended what people were yelling.

Maybe he thought the "bad guy" had the security guard on the ground...

Not making excuses, just speculating that this all may have happened very quickly and confusion and chaos contributed to a horrific outcome.

The "professional" AKA the police officer should have been the coolest head there though...
 
  • Like
Reactions: SPM
SPM said:
The police will show up fearing for thier lives and kill you, your dog, and maybe shoot your wife and children, even if by accident.

For a bunch of Heroes (TM) they're scared of their own shadows, and terrified of the public.

A security guard stopped a mass shooting, managed to not kill the shooter but was holding him until the Hero Second Responders (TM) could arrive - and they murdered him.
Click to expand...

You think EVERY cop is a coward afraid of his own shadow?
I know, shoot with, and am friends with many cops. They are the type of men and women who run toward stuff other people run away from.

Why paint ALL cops with the same brush just because you feel this ONE cop made a bad error in judgement? It's total bullshit.
 
SPM said:
Multiple eyewitnesses from the crowd say no orders to drop the weapon were given, and many statements from eyewitnesses plainly state the crowd was telling the police upon arrival that the guy was a security guard.
Click to expand...
Multiple eyewitness reports said Michael Brown had his hands up too.

Not saying this wasn't a screw up but consider your source.
 
I'd like to know if the deceased security man had all certifications to carry concealed for the job.
Should have not ended this way.
 
vp9c said:
If you try to put yourself in the shoes of the police...I'm responding to a active shooter situation...the "bad guy" is the one with the gun...that is NOT a crazy conclusion...
Click to expand...
I think this speaks to a need for a change of mindset and tactics on the part of police. For a long time, until recently, the only ones that commonly had guns besides the cops were the violent criminals. With more and more people arming themselves this isn't going to be the case and one can't make the assumption that gun equals threat to be terminated.

Furthermore, I will go on to say that what seems to be the way they physically handle people or the public, treating them as threats, threatening them, and manhandling them is downright offensive.
 
Button Pusher said:
I'd like to know if the deceased security man had all certifications to carry concealed for the job.
Should have not ended this way.
Click to expand...

Per reporting, yes he had the required creds and was applying to the police dept.
 
NKD said:
You think EVERY cop is a coward afraid of his own shadow?
I know, shoot with, and am friends with many cops. They are the type of men and women who run toward stuff other people run away from.

Why paint ALL cops with the same brush just because you feel this ONE cop made a bad error in judgement? It's total bullshit.
Click to expand...

Because this isn't an isolated incident in a single jurisdiction with the same jumpy gumshoe......

.....I agree with you, this entire situation is total bullshit. Jemel Roberson is merely the latest in a series of victims of "the Good Guys" (TM).

And your cop buddies will kick in doors and take people's guns when they're told. Count in it.
 
Last edited:
SPM said:
Because this isn't an isolated incident in a single jurisdiction with the same jumpy gumshoe......

.....I agree with you, this entire situation is total bullshit. Jemel Roberson is merely the latest in a series of victims of "the Good Guys" (TM).

And your cop buddies will kick in doors and take people's guns when they're told. Count in it.
Click to expand...

NO, I said your post is bullshit. And, you didn't answer the question.

I know exactly what "my buddies" (personal friends and family) will do. But you certainly don't. You don't even know them.
 
J R Green said:
Multiple eyewitness reports said Michael Brown had his hands up too.

Not saying this wasn't a screw up but consider your source.
Click to expand...

I posted this same thing just a minute ago before reading further down. Not only were his hands up, he had his back to the officer per the eye witnesses.

The proof is metaphorically in the pudding on this one. They just need to reconstruct the event
 
NKD said:
NO, I said your post is bullshit. And, you didn't answer the question.

I know exactly what "my buddies" (personal friends and family) will do. But you certainly don't. You don't even know them.
Click to expand...

I think a cop stole his girlfriend or banged his wife or he failed the Academy and he can't let it go?
 
  • Like
Reactions: NKD
NKD said:
NO, I said your post is bullshit. And, you didn't answer the question.

I know exactly what "my buddies" (personal friends and family) will do. But you certainly don't. You don't even know them.
Click to expand...

I did answer your question. And I would say it is more a matter of training them to react with irrational force in every situation, because even as violent crime it at 40 year lows, and it's the safest time in America to be a police officer since the late 1800s, they're convinced there is a war in the streets of America, against them, and every stop will be their last. They're trained to be scared.

And further, I know exactly what they will do, because they're already doing it....

46473932_10155995492685197_8195774083057582080_o.jpg


Before that is was alcohol, and we're just now seeing it happen with Red Flag laws and the extrajudicial removal of property - namely guns. And there's no massive wave of suddenly morally conscious cops walking out on "the Law."

In fact, they're killing people over it.
 
J R Green said:
How do you figure that came about? Mellow cops?
Click to expand...

No, it's actually more along the lines of what Bill Clinton said: ."It's the Economy, Stupid!"

I know you are more of a perceptions or feelings type rather than data (like most people), as I've shown graphs and such before in response to your posts, but at any rate.....crime rates, be they violent crime rates or property crime rates track pretty closely with how well the Economy is doing (which, incidentally enough, also tracks almost precisely with how much the police extrajudicially steal from the public through civil asset forfeiture - but that's another discussion for another thread).

This correlation is true whether you're looking at left wing (Salon) or right wing (Heritage Foundation) sources: crime rates track very closely with economic performance and consumer perceptions about how well the end is doing.

So it's prosperity that's driving crime rates down, not Donut Warriors fighting their perceived War on the Street.

An example of the data supporting this supposition is below. If you want the whole study, just let me know....

46482314_10214972880534104_3552460616952184832_o.jpg
 
Last edited:
SPM said:
No, it's actually more along the lines of what Bill Clinton said: ."It's the Economy, Stupid!"

I know you are more of a perceptions or feelings type rather than data (like most people), as I've shown graphs and such before in response to your posts, but at any rate.....crime rates, be they violent crime rates or property crime rates track pretty closely with how well the Economy is doing (which, incidentally enough, also tracks almost precisely with how much the police extrajudicially steal from the public through civil asset forfeiture - but that's another discussion for another thread).

This correlation is true whether you're looking at left wing (Salon) or right wing (Heritage Foundation) sources: crime rates track very closely with economic performance and consumer perceptions about how well the end is doing.

So it's prosperity that's driving crime rates down, not Donut Warriors fighting their perceived War on the Street.

An example of the data supporting this supposition is below. If you want the whole study, just let me know....

46482314_10214972880534104_3552460616952184832_o.jpg
Click to expand...
The economy went to hell in 2008 so that's not it, what else you got?
 
Last edited:
SPM said:
I did answer your question. And I would say it is more a matter of training them to react with irrational force in every situation, because even as violent crime it at 40 year lows, and it's the safest time in America to be a police officer since the late 1800s, they're convinced there is a war in the streets of America, against them, and every stop will be their last. They're trained to be scared.

And further, I know exactly what they will do, because they're already doing it....

46473932_10155995492685197_8195774083057582080_o.jpg


Before that is was alcohol, and we're just now seeing it happen with Red Flag laws and the extrajudicial removal of property - namely guns. And there's no massive wave of suddenly morally conscious cops walking out on "the Law."

In fact, they're killing people over it.
Click to expand...

Got to protect that pension.
 
Last edited:
SPM said:
Look at the trend line of crime on the graph again there genius.....

But in case it's just you're graphically illiterate...

https://www.heritage.org/crime-and-justice/commentary/crime-and-economy-what-connection

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.za/clou...en-crime-and-economic-development_a_23006256/

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAPegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw2rnA50esKMOtrfKzYzDT0T
Click to expand...
You mean the graph that says the exact opposite of what you're saying and the world has been getting more dangerous since 2000? Genius?

I only say that because it's apparently OK now to insult other members.
 
Last edited:
J R Green said:
You mean the graph that says the exact opposite of what you're saying and the world has been getting more dangerous since 2000? Genius?

I only say that because it's apparently OK now to insult other members.
Click to expand...

Except no....

Violent-Crime-Rate-Chart1.png


The previous graphic shows property crime as a correlation to consumer pessimism, that shows crime data follow economic performance and perception. Even this one shows anbump in 2008...then the continued overall trend of the last 40 years as the recovery took hold...

If anything, the previous graphic shows greater danger to average Joe Citizen than Johnny Law.
 
Last edited:
So then my f
SPM said:
Except no....

Violent-Crime-Rate-Chart1.png


The previous graphic shows property crime as a correlation to consumer pessimism, that shows crime data follow economic performance and perception. Even this one shows anbump in 2008...then the continued overall trend of the last 40 years as the recovery took hold...

If anything, the previous graphic shows greater danger to average Joe Citizen than Johnny Law.
Click to expand...
first statement bears up. You can't have it both ways.
 
SPM said:
Except no....

Violent-Crime-Rate-Chart1.png


The previous graphic shows property crime as a correlation to consumer pessimism, that shows crime data follow economic performance and perception. Even this one shows anbump in 2008...then the continued overall trend of the last 40 years as the recovery took hold...

If anything, the previous graphic shows greater danger to average Joe Citizen than Johnny Law.
Click to expand...
Is it pessimism or simply the access to money, or lack thereof? During hard times, even if your chosen profession is crime, money is harder to come by, fewer targets or less lucrative ones anyway. Wouldn't the economy track closely to pessimism? So, criminals have to work harder, commit more crimes. It would be seeing a comparison there.
Just thinking out loud.
 
Last edited:
Ugh. This thread.

SMH.

It would be nice to have a discussion about a possible scenario involving LEOs without it getting derailed every time by who thinks cops are always virtuous and kind and just, and who think cops are always scumbag tyrants at the service of the ruling class.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
And I will add, since this thread is already lost, I have illustrated numerous times that there are in fact numerous swells of Sheriff's offices around the country, but most specifically in red-to-blue states, where cops ARE in fact refusing to follow State laws on firearm and magazine restrictions.

I posted a photo of the CO Coalition of Sheriffs who have refused to comply with magazine restrictions. You can call their offices and verify their commitment to it... It was laughed off as a photo op pump piece...so apparently when the information is presented, those hard set on their ideas are not willing to change it.

Nor do I ever hear any talk about the countless hours many cops put in in seeking justice for victims of crimes such as assault, rape, murder, armed robbery, etc...the many selfless hours they spend away from their family and friends and personal life to seek their due diligence.

Shitty cops exist. So do good ones. There are tyrannical cops. There are Patriotic cops. Some love freedom. Some love to oppress. Some are evil. Some are pure.

Get over it. They all exist. No one is above reproach.

You can't walk in another man's shoes without first stepping out of yours.

I get it, I'm sick of the thin blue line shit, too. Everyone wants to be a victim. Everyone wants to be validated. They aren't all one "brotherhood" - feuds exist among LE just like anyone else.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 
We can also point to Sheriff’s that ignore the laws. Case in point Orange County. Heck the newly elected Sheriff for Wake Coujty has on record said he wont support federal immigration laws.
 
Cpippen said:
We can also point to Sheriff’s that ignore the laws. Case in point Orange County. Heck the newly elected Sheriff for Wake Coujty has on record said he wont support federal immigration laws.
Click to expand...
Ugh, I can only wait to see what happens in Guilford County. Barnes had been in too long, but the guy that is replacing him: black democrat that has been fired by the sheriffs office when he was a prison guard, and I am pretty sure he was fired from the HIgh Point PD or at least has a bad disciplinary action record. Ran in multiple elections and outright refused when asked to publish a policy or position statement. All he would say is we need “change”. Sounds like Obozo and his ‘change you can believe in”. Something tells me he’s going to be nothing but a racist, black justices warrior, looking out for his brothers. I’m sure the already high crime rate will skyrocket. SMH. No wonder we’ve been looking at homes elsewhere.
 
SPM said:
you are more of a perceptions or feelings type rather than data (like most people),
Click to expand...

You might want to re-examine that notion. I think you'll find the opposite to be true. The world surprises me a lot less after accepting that rational people are rare and that emotional people are by far in the majority. Facts and data really aren't all that important to emotional people.
 
Last edited:
noway2 said:
Ugh, I can only wait to see what happens in Guilford County. Barnes had been in too long, but the guy that is replacing him: black democrat that has been fired by the sheriffs office when he was a prison guard, and I am pretty sure he was fired from the HIgh Point PD or at least has a bad disciplinary action record. Ran in multiple elections and outright refused when asked to publish a policy or position statement. All he would say is we need “change”. Sounds like Obozo and his ‘change you can believe in”. Something tells me he’s going to be nothing but a racist, black justices warrior, looking out for his brothers. I’m sure the already high crime rate will skyrocket. SMH. No wonder we’ve been looking at homes elsewhere.
Click to expand...

The following counties have new Sheriff’s incoming

Wake-
Durham-
Guildford-

All three want to end immigration deportations and bill themselves and social justice friendly BLM type supporters
 
Cpippen said:
The following counties have new Sheriff’s incoming

Wake-
Durham-
Guildford-

All three want to end immigration deportations and bill themselves and social justice friendly BLM type supporters
Click to expand...

Get a rope?
 
Cpippen said:
The following counties have new Sheriff’s incoming

Wake-
Durham-
Guildford-

All three want to end immigration deportations and bill themselves and social justice friendly BLM type supporters
Click to expand...

You can add Mecklenburg to that list too.
McFadden, the new Sheriff, will not participate in the 287G program.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom