Do I want a PCC? Looking for Recommendations

Luckbad

Luckbad

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I'm looking at getting a PCC, PDW, or something else for a particular use case.

This is specifically for interior home defense. I have plenty of options on hand already, but I think I am looking for an SBR or similar and I'm seeking guidance.

Here are my general requirements, roughly in order (most to least) of importance:
- Reliability: This is paramount. If a gun is not proven to be incredibly reliable, it's not on the list. This includes cycling reliably with any round I pop in there, from ball to hollow point to cheap bulk garbage.
- Maneuverable in Close Quarters: I need to be able to easily maneuver through doorways, hallways, and stairways. This makes my full-length rifles and shotguns less desirable in this scenario.
- Controllable Under Duress: If I'm panicked and gripping the thing at 100% strength, I still want to be able to point and shoot effectively. This makes my handguns less desirable in this scenario.
- Over-Penetration: Preferably reduced risk of over-penetration so I am less likely to hit a family member (or neighbor) if I am forced to shoot an attacker.
- Suppressible: A caliber and firearm that is known to be very reliable when suppressed. The perfect world scenario is that if I do have to use the gun indoors, I don't destroy a kid's hearing.
- Wife-Useable: Something that my less-experienced wife can use if I am out of the fight or not home at the time would be great.
- Cost: Multiple factors here. One is initial cost of the weapon, one is cost of necessary accessories, and the other is cost of ammo. I don't want to go broke practicing with a gun that uses exotic and expensive ammunition. I also can't afford a fully automatic MP5.

I've done a bunch of "research" (watched all the videos on YouTube and Rumble. All of them), but folks here seem experienced and opinionated. By the way, I am willing to SBR it and get a stamp for a silencer. I'm hoping to be able to use it without those things in the interim, so something integrally suppressed might not be a good option.

Some of the options I've seen (not limited to this list! I'm open to anything): CZ Scorpion (Plus?), CMMG Banshee, CMMG Dissent 300 Blackout, Sig MPX, Angstadt MDP-9, B&T APC9, Zenith ZF-5 (newer Made in USA version), Century (MKE) AP5, H&K SP5 (probably can't convince my wife to let me spend this much), etc.

Help me spend money wisely! Thanks.
 
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I'm open to anything, I just listed some that I had seen. I've seen the PSA 9mm AK variant but don't know much about them.
 
5.56 will overpenetrate less than 9mm because the bullets fragment on impact, kick less than a blowback 9mm, and stop bad guys much better than a 9mm. These reasons are why just about all of the military units and police switched from MP5s to short AR15s. If you're willing to SBR it, a 5.56 is best around 10 or 11 inch barrel. A 9mm barrel can go shorter and reduce overall length a few inches, but either is plenty short enough for a house. If not SBRed, both are 26 inches OAL... A 9mm will be quieter, and with suppressors the length difference between 9mm and 5.56 becomes more noticeable, but 5.56 has a lot going for it.

A reasonable quality AR is much cheaper than an expensive PCC(MP5 and clones, MPX, B&T GHM9 or APC9, TP9) and about the same as a cheap decent PCC(Scorpion w/ upgrades, maybe KP9 if the qualiity issues are fixed)? If you already have PMAGs, tools, etc for ARs, the cost favors ARs even more.

The Century/MKE AP5 clones are clearly the leading price to performance PCC on the market, but not all of them are built and assembled right and if I will get one I will test it, a lot, before SBRing or considering it a self defense gun.
Every unsponsored Angstadt reveiw I've seen involved horrible reliability. ZF-5s had issues on release, they certainly don't seem to be worth more than Century/MKE clones but the price is much higher.
 
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Fred said:
5.56 will overpenetrate less than 9mm because the bullets fragment on impact, kick less than a blowback 9mm, and stop bad guys much better than a 9mm. These reasons are why just about all of the military units and police switched from MP5s to short AR15s. If you're willing to SBR it, a 5.56 is best around 10 or 11 inch barrel. A 9mm barrel can go shorter and reduce overall length a few inches, but either is plenty short enough for a house. If not SBRed, both are 26 inches OAL...
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I have witnessed this in person during testing and real life. It’s a big myth that the 5.56 will over penetrate. Keep this in mind. No matter what caliber you choose, unless you get lucky and a stud or other structural support in the wall, you will penetrate through the first wall.

In one of the real life scenarios, our 5.56 were stopped in the 2nd wall. Bad guys 9mm made into the 3rd and a couple into the 4th wall.
 
I do love ARs and have quite a few bits and bobs required to work on them (and interchangeable parts), so it would make sense to SBR one of them or build a new one. I hadn't really considered it.
 
Based upon your listed requirements, my recommendation would be an AR type platform with a 10” range barrel with a pinned and welded suppressor (one stamp gun for the SBRP and either a stock, brace or extendable stock.

It can be .223 or 9mm, but suppressed 9mm will be quieter and probably lighter than a .223. Another option would be a suppressed .410 AR. Theoretically that would be an excellent combination for home defense.

I actually own an MP5SD, and its form factor is excellent for CQB but Fred’s points about the superior stopping power of a .223 are well taken. If you go the MP5 clone route, I’d suggest staying away from the K model because its short length is not as controllable as the standard MP5. They are extremely well balanced and controllable too.
 
Fred said:
5.56 will overpenetrate less than 9mm because the bullets fragment on impact, kick less than a blowback 9mm, and stop bad guys much better than a 9mm. These reasons are why just about all of the military units and police switched from MP5s to short AR15s. If you're willing to SBR it, a 5.56 is best around 10 or 11 inch barrel. A 9mm barrel can go shorter and reduce overall length a few inches, but either is plenty short enough for a house. If not SBRed, both are 26 inches OAL... A 9mm will be quieter, and with suppressors the length difference between 9mm and 5.56 becomes more noticeable, but 5.56 has a lot going for it.

A reasonable quality AR is much cheaper than an expensive PCC(MP5 and clones, MPX, B&T GHM9 or APC9, TP9) and about the same as a cheap decent PCC(Scorpion w/ upgrades, maybe KP9 if the qualiity issues are fixed)? If you already have PMAGs, tools, etc for ARs, the cost favors ARs even more.

The Century/MKE AP5 clones are clearly the leading price to performance PCC on the market, but not all of them are built and assembled right and if I will get one I will test it, a lot, before SBRing or considering it a self defense gun.
Every unsponsored Angstadt reveiw I've seen involved horrible reliability. ZF-5s had issues on release, they certainly don't seem to be worth more than Century/MKE clones but the price is much higher.
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Your framing of why the 9mm SMG lost out to the M4 is not 100% correct. While all your points are valuable, its not the whole story.

The SMG lost out because of the flex of a mission. The US Military was training to accomplish a mission, and thats it.

The GWOT forced the community to go from inside a structure to outside the structure to in the streets to into the hallway, to the garden on a mountain top.

This level of flex makes a carbine perfect because it is good 300meters and under. a SMG is great 50meters and less, and marginal to 150meters.

My home defense gun is a CZ Scorpion and its great in this role. So are the Sig MPX, and most PPC's one can buy. With the brace ruling going the way its going, I would tell you that s 16" PPC is compact enough as well. BUT if you suppress a 16" PPC it gets longer thn most auto shotguns. So we go back to the two stamp world, a SBR and Suppressor. Due to the brace world we now live in.

If I was to SBR a PCC then I would go ahead and buy a MPX or Scorpion and suppressor too.

John
 
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My personal go-to is a Scorpion with an HBI handguard, trigger spring kit, upgraded grip, and AK style safety lever. It's lightweight even with a full 30 rd mag, can accommodate a suppressor/flash can easily, takes MLOK accessories, and has been 100% reliable for me with everything from the cheapest 115 gr. up to 147 gr. subsonic loads. Not to mention, it has a well proven track record, which is a concern of mine for some of those newer to the market. The only downside is that it will have a little more recoil than something like an MPX or other radial/roller delayed/short stroke gas system guns. PSA makes magazines with metal feed lips for them that sell for dirt cheap as well and are as, or more, reliable than factory CZ mags, and they're considerably cheaper than OEM Glock mags or PMAGs.

If I'm willing to give up my hearing indoors, I have an 11.5" AR that has also been 100% reliable, but you're talking a significant jump in overall length, especially with a can on it.
 
Supermatch said:
My personal go-to is a Scorpion with an HBI handguard, trigger spring kit, upgraded grip, and AK style safety lever. It's lightweight even with a full 30 rd mag, can accommodate a suppressor/flash can easily, takes MLOK accessories, and has been 100% reliable for me with everything from the cheapest 115 gr. up to 147 gr. subsonic loads. Not to mention, it has a well proven track record, which is a concern of mine for some of those newer to the market. The only downside is that it will have a little more recoil than something like an MPX or other radial/roller delayed/short stroke gas system guns. PSA makes magazines with metal feed lips for them that sell for dirt cheap as well and are as, or more, reliable than factory CZ mags, and they're considerably cheaper than OEM Glock mags or PMAGs.

If I'm willing to give up my hearing indoors, I have an 11.5" AR that has also been 100% reliable, but you're talking a significant jump in overall length, especially with a can on it.
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Do you have a Micro or standard length (pistol) Scorpion?

It seems like they are phasing out the Evo now in favor of the 3 Plus. I don't see the Evo on the CZ website anymore and places like PSA are listing the Evos as Clearance items for $800.
 
Personal preference, I want a free hand for home defense, so my long arm is my secondary HD firearm. For that purpose I like the size of a 5.56mm bullpup like a Tavor or AUG. I especially like these because they are factory-made, which in my case means RELIABLE. I have shorty AR's and a can that have needed to be tweaked, etc, which means that they are not to be used first to save my life. I am not concerned with firing a few 5.56 rounds indoors if it's to save my life. Been around that plenty and it's not a big deal. And if I have to shoot someone, I'd rather it be 5.56 out of a 16" barrel than a 9mm out of an 8".
 
Luckbad said:
Do you have a Micro or standard length (pistol) Scorpion?

It seems like they are phasing out the Evo now in favor of the 3 Plus. I don't see the Evo on the CZ website anymore and places like PSA are listing the Evos as Clearance items for $800.
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Standard length EVO with the 7.8" barrel. They are indeed phasing out the EVO, but that's more to do with the fact that they have redesigned the lowers for some improved features (better ergonomics, AR style mag release, etc.) The downside being (as far as I know) that they don't take the earlier generation mags. If you're used to AR ergonomics, the 3+ may not be a bad idea. If you can find an EVO for cheap, I certainly wouldn't shy away from them.
 
I had a Scorpion braced pistol, its OAL was the exact same as an 8" barreled AR braced pistol. The 300BLK with hot 125g rounds has less recoil than the Scorpion with bunny fart 115's or 124g rounds loaded just enough powder to cycle a Glock & Shadow2.
I prefer my 10" suppressed SBR 300BLK loaded with 100g Raptors running ~2,700fps per @Michael458 's prompting.
cuttingedgebullets.com

.308 100gr Flat Base Raptor

50ct This bullet was designed with crimping grooves placed precisely for 300 Whisper, 300 Blackout, 300 WT as well as .308 Winchester. These come with Raptor Tips™ already installed. The Flat Base Raptors are manufactured out of solid brass bar stock on a CNC Swiss style lathe. Instead of...
cuttingedgebullets.com cuttingedgebullets.com
 
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I used to have a B&T APC9. That was the bees knees for HD with a dot on it.

At present I'm using a .30 carbine with a dot and light for HD. It's small, powerful, and looks great for the jury. It's also very easy to learn to manipulate. 10, 15, 20 and 30 round magazines available. I like the 15s for reliability. I've got a sling on it for retention as well.
 
Tons of options, it’s going to come down to budget, use case, and preference.
Personally I prefer the AR platform ergonomics and have a budget AR9 that’s just a Palmetto upper and lower. Think I spent about $500 total, it uses Glock magazines and with a cheap red dot I can group pretty well at 50 yards and hasn’t choked on anything I’ve fed it yet. I also have a Ruger PCC that does all of the above but looks and handles like a big 10/22. If you want something with a bit more punch and are willing to sacrifice a bit of speed and capacity then you might consider a .357 mag lever gun, I have a Henry which does a pretty good job but it only holds 10 and is definitely not as quick to run or reload. Still might be worth a look if home defense includes 4 legged critters as well as the 2 legged variety.
 
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Also…if you’re willing to SBR you could just pick up an AR in the caliber you like and the barrel length you like, do the Hokey Pokey with the ATF for them to grant you permission to own one of the extraordinarily deadly shorter barrels with an actual stock and the sky is the limit, plus you can get extra uppers for whatever other mission you choose to employ them for. Honestly the AR platform is (in my opinion) probably the best in terms of being a developed platform that’s highly versatile and price effective. Properly engineered 77 grain out of an 11.5 inch barrel in .223 seem like they might fit the bill…it’s just that pesky paperwork part.
 
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I'm definitely willing to SBR. I need to look into getting an NFA Gun Trust to make it easier for my son to get my guns down the road.

Regarding the pistol with a flashlight, yeah I've got that already! I'm hoping to find something that meets a few other needs though.
 
Im very happy with the CZ evo scorpion. The mags are excellent and cheap. There are high quality magpul versions too. The evo runs great and all ammo I’ve tested. Suppresses well too. To me it’s a no brainer. I’ve owned the beretta cx4, Ruger PCC, kriss vector, maybe some others I cannot recall…the evo is my preference by a mile.

now if the budget allows I’d definitely look at the B&T offerings but they’re just out of my price range.
 
I have a Scorpion SBR. Very quiet suppressed. Very accurate and controllable. Easy to make accurate follow up shots. Loves my subsonic ammo. Much cheaper than a roller lock gun. Never had a malfunction with it. Really can’t say enough good things about it. I have added some aftermarket parts (HBI handguard, grip, changed trigger pack out), but it was a good gun out of the box.

Biggest complaint was the factory trigger was HEAVY, but I still shot well with it. Aftermarket trigger made it easier to shoot well, though.

One thing I can say about the AK style 9mms is they all blew back too much gas in my face when suppressed. I couldn’t get more than a few shots fired before my eyes were tearing up from the powder and hot gas. That has never happened with my Scorpion.
 
My recommendation would be for an MPX if your set on the PCC route with the scorpion being my next recommendation. I like the MPX in that the controls are just like the AR platform so it is easy to manipulate, it has performed well suppressed, and it shoots well. Most of the PCCs have good aftermarket support and I would recommend for the MPX going ahead and getting the timney trigger and radian charging handle. I did get an 4.5in "in lead we trust" barrel that has the tri lugs built into it which makes adding my octane to it easy.

It started out as THE home defense gun but has lost out to a .300 blackout AR of mine. The AR is longer but I prefer that round for that role, to echo a few other peoples recommendations.
 
InertOrd13 said:
My recommendation would be for an MPX if your set on the PCC route with the scorpion being my next recommendation. I like the MPX in that the controls are just like the AR platform so it is easy to manipulate, it has performed well suppressed, and it shoots well. Most of the PCCs have good aftermarket support and I would recommend for the MPX going ahead and getting the timney trigger and radian charging handle. I did get an 4.5in "in lead we trust" barrel that has the tri lugs built into it which makes adding my octane to it easy.

It started out as THE home defense gun but has lost out to a .300 blackout AR of mine. The AR is longer but I prefer that round for that role, to echo a few other peoples recommendations.
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as an owner of both the CZ scorpion and an MPX, I don’t see the cost justified for the MPX. The mags are also expensive. It is no better of a suppressor host at least for me. for the cost of an MPX I could have a an evo scorpion, upgrades. mags, a suppressor and the SBR tax stamp.

if the MPX were priced appropriately in the $1000-$1200 price range it would be a great choice. for me its a $2k purchase that I regret.
 
92G said:
as an owner of both the CZ scorpion and an MPX, I don’t see the cost justified for the MPX. The mags are also expensive. It is no better of a suppressor host at least for me. for the cost of an MPX I could have a an evo scorpion, upgrades. mags, a suppressor and the SBR tax stamp.

if the MPX were priced appropriately in the $1000-$1200 price range it would be a great choice. for me its a $2k purchase that I regret.
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Agreed.
 
I asked a similar question so perhaps my reasoning will be helpfu.

I decided on a Kalashnikov KP-9 pistol (with formally a brace)
why:
- I like the AK platform and I am very familiar with it
-It was originally designed for 9X19. This is important for me from a reliability standpoint. Many AR-9’s are just 5.56 guns modified to shoot 9mm Because of this compromises have to be made in the design which, from my experience effects reliability. From the ones I have had and seen in matches and the range they are far less reliable than their 5.56 cousins. Can they be 99% reliable? yes but that means 1 failure every 3 mags!
-It is very likely I will need to take a shot past 35 yards at a coyote or other predator. This rules out shotguns.
-over penetration /max range. First ALL firearms are capable of lethal penetration inside a home. Where I currently live live there are no homes within range of a sub-sonic 9X19 fired horizontally at shoulder level (about 175 yards). The bullet is also very unlikely to leave my property depending on the direction.
-Lower muzzle blast.
-Short, handy size for indoor use
-folding brace for storage in cubby hole
-Training. Probably the most important thing. First ammo is less expensive so more trigger time. For me I can practice on my clubs pistol range where close in steel targets can be shot safely-something you really can’t do with 5.56. There are plenty of PCC matches out there. These are great training aids for self defense!

If it was not for the legal entanglements I would have a suppressor.
 
92G said:
as an owner of both the CZ scorpion and an MPX, I don’t see the cost justified for the MPX. The mags are also expensive. It is no better of a suppressor host at least for me. for the cost of an MPX I could have a an evo scorpion, upgrades. mags, a suppressor and the SBR tax stamp.

if the MPX were priced appropriately in the $1000-$1200 price range it would be a great choice. for me its a $2k purchase that I regret.
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I would agree the cost is outrageous, like most of Sigs offerings. I do think the MPX is better for me after shooting both but in no way would I say the scorpion was a bad choice, definitely the better financial choice. The OEM mags for both the scorpion and the MPX are similar in price, the scorpion does have cheap magpul mags while the MPX is limited pretty much to lancer or thril. Still better better choices than an SP5 or other MP5 clone based off of ergonomics.
 
The comments here have me seriously considering a few things:
- .300 AAC Blackout: I knew of the caliber and have watched some videos on it, but I've never used it myself. I know it started getting popular a few years ago. It does seem like a solid option and I like that you can go subsonic or supersonic on the ammo with a lot of flexibility there based on the situation. The ammo costs a lot and I have none of it right now, so the startup cost here is definitely the highest.
- CZ Scorpion: If 9mm is adequate, this does appear to be a solid option.
- 223: I could always stick with a standard AR-15 and suppress it. Maybe grab a BCM 11.5" upper and SBR a lower. This doesn't allow for useful subsonic ammo, but I could suppress it and keep it around 16" in barrel length. The bulkiest but least expensive option.

Eventually the answer is probably "all three," but I need to figure out what the shorter term reality looks like.
 
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I think the subgun in its original habitat IE 100yrds and less, more like 0-10ft is one of the best options one can buy for home defense. Adding a RDS and WML and you are set for a really great CQC firearm that is designed for that mission specific to indoor activities.
 
Luckbad said:
The comments here have me seriously considering a few things:
- .300 AAC Blackout: I knew of the caliber and have watched some videos on it, but I've never used it myself. I know it started getting popular a few years ago. It does seem like a solid option and I like that you can go subsonic or supersonic on the ammo with a lot of flexibility there based on the situation. The ammo costs a lot and I have none of it right now, so the startup cost here is definitely the highest.
- CZ Scorpion: If 9mm is adequate, this does appear to be a solid option.
- 223: I could always stick with a standard AR-15 and suppress it. Maybe grab a BCM 11.5" upper and SBR a lower. This doesn't allow for useful subsonic ammo, but I could suppress it and keep it around 16" in barrel length. The bulkiest but least expensive option.

Eventually the answer is probably "all three," but I need to figure out what the shorter term reality looks like.
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I have all three and my home defense gun is a CZ Scorpion.

The 300blkout shoots a bullet equal any pistol round in weight, speed and energy when subsonic. So way sling a $1.00 downrange when you can sling $0.52?

I lost a lot of my hearing in my military days. So much so that at 39 years old I got my first set of hearing aids.

When I had my home invasion back in 2020 I used my Scorpion to correct that man's actions ok, I lost 40% more hearing in my right ear.

By the time I got my firearm back from the evidence locker, I had a Gemtech suppressor to add in the mix.

Most of my hearing loss back in the day was from 5.56mm inside structures.

Fyi.

John
 
Luckbad said:
The comments here have me seriously considering a few things:
- .300 AAC Blackout: I knew of the caliber and have watched some videos on it, but I've never used it myself. I know it started getting popular a few years ago. It does seem like a solid option and I like that you can go subsonic or supersonic on the ammo with a lot of flexibility there based on the situation. The ammo costs a lot and I have none of it right now, so the startup cost here is definitely the highest.
- CZ Scorpion: If 9mm is adequate, this does appear to be a solid option.
- 223: I could always stick with a standard AR-15 and suppress it. Maybe grab a BCM 11.5" upper and SBR a lower. This doesn't allow for useful subsonic ammo, but I could suppress it and keep it around 16" in barrel length. The bulkiest but least expensive option.

Eventually the answer is probably "all three," but I need to figure out what the shorter term reality looks like.
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I wouldn’t use a 300BLK subsonic for SD, a 9mm or 350 Legend is a better choice.
The 100g Raptors will run 2,600+ fps in a short barrel.
 
I've owned and shot the following, most in PCC/3 gun matches:

Hi Point 9mm and 45ACP (not in matches). Didn't like the recoil impulse or the limited mag capacity. Were reliable with steel case in the short time I owned them (@100-200 rounds).

K USA KP 9 carbine. Liked it ok. Sights sucked. Stock cheek weld sucked. Proprietary mags and no last round bolt hold open. Still fun to shoot.

Ruger PCC. One with standard stock and one with the pistol grip and AR stock. First one, I didn't like the short sight radius on the ghost ring sights, the recoil impulse, or the fact that the Glock magwell wouldn't run the ETS mags (My AR 9m did). The second one I liked better and the magwell would run the ETS mags (first one probably just needed fitting/tightening, but I was afraid of snapping the little hex screw). Shooting it side by side with my AR 9, I felt like the AR 9 was softer and smoother shooting.

AR 9's. One frankengun using Colt SMG mags and one Foxtrot Mike front charger. Both ran great. The Colt mags are a pain to load and really needed the Lula loader (your thumb will never forgive you if you leave it at home). Also, if you drop a loaded Colt mag, it will spit out rounds. And, it ain't easy reloading a full mag on a closed bolt. The Glock mag FM front charger was my favorite AR 9. However, the novelty of the front charging wore off fast. Lost like half of the front handguard screws because they weren't loctited in place. Come on Man!

Kriss Vector 9mm pistol with brace. Wanted to love this gun, but never warmed up to it. Had several issues with reliability (I bought it used). Once I got it running, I never could find a good place to put my support hand that wasn't in the way. If I did another I'd SBR it and put a forward grip on it. Would have liked a slightly longer barrel or a longer linear comp for my digits piece of mind.

I had both the K9 and the AR9 get so dirty that they would randomly bump fire. Wasn't as fun or controllable as it sounds. Was a waste of ammo trying to finish the matches with the gun to try and diagnose the problem. I should probably clean my guns more. LOL.

I sold both the AR9's I was using for 3 gun/PCC @6 months ago to try and save money and ammo, but I want another....

Good luck on your search and keep us posted.

GregB
 
Luckbad said:
- .300 AAC Blackout: ... The ammo costs a lot and I have none of it right now, so the startup cost here is definitely the highest.
- CZ Scorpion: If 9mm is adequate, this does appear to be a solid option.
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JBoyette said:
The 300blkout shoots a bullet equal any pistol round in weight, speed and energy when subsonic. So way sling a $1.00 downrange when you can sling $0.52?
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PSA bought AAC. Prices will come back down because of it. Right now PSA is selling 124gr for 59c/rd
Not wrong though - 300blk is basically a choice between pointy 9mm or .45 but with 30rd magazines.
 
DrScaryGuy said:
PSA bought AAC. Prices will come back down because of it. Right now PSA is selling 124gr for 59c/rd
Not wrong though - 300blk is basically a choice between pointy 9mm or .45 but with 30rd magazines.
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Oh its a great option I love mine, but its not replacing my 9mm in the house.

Everyone talks about 9mm and body armor.

Bro, if my home invasion dude or gal has on body armor,
1. I am in a job or doing things where I expect this visit.
2. I will replace the 9mm with a my "other" options.

John
 
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