What ever you practice with the most is going to be the best option for EDC. In a high stress situation your not thinking about “finding the dot” or “finding the front sight”. Your mind will tell your body to do what comes natural, feels natural and is the most farmiliar. Why do you think bad habits are so hard to break.
EDC with optics
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Moneyshot1982
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I skimmed through this so I’m not sure if anyone mentioned it or not.
All require a battery. And most require you to turn them on. I had a holosun 507c which was awesome. Solar aux power for ridiculously long battery life and shake awake technology. So you are never left wondering….. 🤔 did I turn it on when I left the house? 🤔Is it still on or did it time it’s self out? 🤔When did I change the battery last. I’d also be looking for something that would work along with suppressor height sights or has a rear sight built in to it that works with your existing front sight. When all of these completion shooters are setting the range on fire their lives are not on the line. So what their times are have nothing to do with the decisions I make for EDC.
All require a battery. And most require you to turn them on. I had a holosun 507c which was awesome. Solar aux power for ridiculously long battery life and shake awake technology. So you are never left wondering….. 🤔 did I turn it on when I left the house? 🤔Is it still on or did it time it’s self out? 🤔When did I change the battery last. I’d also be looking for something that would work along with suppressor height sights or has a rear sight built in to it that works with your existing front sight. When all of these completion shooters are setting the range on fire their lives are not on the line. So what their times are have nothing to do with the decisions I make for EDC.
OP
I can play an augmented 11 chord on the piano with one hand! [emoji38]
I’m pretty set on the 43x or 48, and I think I’m going with an RMR optic. I’ve got friends in the military and nearly all of them are running 19’s with RMR optics and TLR-1 WML’s. I may try a Holosun green just because….
I have Holosuns with Shake-awake on several AR’s and I really like them.
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Wilmingtonppb
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After trying a Trijicon RMR I was firmly against dot sights, and then got to try a holosun. Something about the RMR doesn’t jive with my astigmatism and I couldn’t shoot it worth a damn. The holosun is a game changer for me and I am shooting way more accurate, way further out, and way faster than ever before. As has been said a lot, the key is dry fire and presentation reps. Whether I’m standing still or at a full run I can draw, keep both eyes on the target, and have that reticle on it in no time. For me that’s a big benefit
jjwestbrook
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I have both the 407k and the Romeo zero in 6 moa. Much prefer the 407k. Actually gonna get another in green
biganimal
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I had the holosun on a p365 and hated it. It was great for slow target shooting but terrible for self defense quick drawing. I found that it took me 6x longer to put the dot on target vs. irons.
While they work well for some I’ll stick to the irons I’ve used for close to 50 years.
While they work well for some I’ll stick to the irons I’ve used for close to 50 years.
Murtaugh
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Vs Irons - I can get a sight picture in any lighting condition even if I can't get a light turned on, if my light is broken/dead, or it is advantageous to not have my light provide a beacon to others as to where to shoot.
Compared to the handgun dot - no worries with: batteries, dot wash, dot too bright, glare/halo/starburst, finding the dot, dirt/debris/water obscuring the emitter, or that big housing messing with less precise sight pictures. I think handgun dots will evolve where more and more will be fully enclosed and smaller which will mitigate some of this.
OP
This is pretty much the crux….
I’m interested to see if for me, personally optic EDC is an option. I’m sure in a courtroom it will not bode well as the prosecutor will try to demonstrate it as “an enhancement to an already deadly and dangerous weapon”. BUT the subject has definitely piqued my interest and I definitely want to try it. I shoot dots on my PCC’s and AR’s and I am WAY faster and more efficient with them, so why not? If it don’t work, I’ll put it in the safe and unload it during the next herd thinning!![emoji16]
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Can you send me links to that information, i.e. 6 - 21, 10 - 15 ft., etc. and Aaron Conan's White Paper (nothing came up in a quick Google search).
Were these stats broken down by location, population density, etc. or just a nationwide scan? I would imagine the numbers might be somewhat...to a-whole-lot different from a Montana OIS to a Brooklyn NY OIS. For instance, Boone, NC has approximately 3200 people per square mile, while Brooklyn, NY has 38,600+ people per square mile.
Thanks.
EDIT: I just watched a video on Lucky Gunner. Interesting stats - NYPD OIS were 50% 10' for less, but surpringly, 36% over 15". I'm going to re-think these red dot sights now that I'm "in the country"!!!
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I’d love to have those as well; thanks ! No dog in this fight either way.
I shoot both, and it really comes down to training time. At 73 and a 60 year pistol shooter, I have a real fixation on front sight focus. I put a red dot on a pistol I use in USPSA, and it was a really tough adjustment to look at the target instead of the sight (dot). Once I got used to it was faster, but it was still a constant mental battle to keep my focus on the target. Properly zeroed, if you see the dot anywhere on the target, it will be a hit.
Having now rambled on, I think it's up to the shooter and his training time if you're going to shoot an optic you need a lot of practice.
Having now rambled on, I think it's up to the shooter and his training time if you're going to shoot an optic you need a lot of practice.
A few counterpoints:
1) Not all dots require batteries. See: RMR dual illumination sights.
2) The idea of shake awake is that you leave it on and it automatically turns off. Under this setting, it would turn on when you drew the pistol.
3) Battery-powered dots will have blinking reticles when the battery gets low. It's a pain to change RMR batteries, but it's a minute long process on a Holosun. Either way, you should be changing your batteries at regular intervals anyways.
4) Even if your dot *does* die, you're back to iron sights, so it's not like you're completely helpless.
Aaron Cowan’s white paper. He is probably the most extensive tester/reviewer of pistol red dots in the industry and this paper is a living document that updates periodically with new data from the ongoing tests.
No clue, I've never checked.
Yup, the slightest motion will turn the on. You barely tap on the gun and the dot will awaken. I have motion activated dots in 6 different optics and they all work great.
Have you shot a 43x/48 before?
A 43x has been my main EDC for about the last 3 years, carrying a 43 when I needed something a little slimmer/lighter. Always amazed at how well they shoot to be so small, especially the 43. Until I got a 26....
I avoided the 26 for years, because it "feels terrible in my hand". I bought a group of 3 Glocks from a fellow CFF inmate, one of them being a Gen 5 G26, which I almost sold off before shooting it. A friend said he might be interested in it, then bailed; so I decided, what the heck, give it a try. It turns out that I shoot the G26 better than any centerfire pistol I've ever shot, even with my pinky dangling. Better than a G19 or G45. Makes no sense to me, but I'm going with it.
Suddenly, the G26 feels great in my hand, and the 43x doesn't; and it's the trigger reach issue mentioned by @JRV above. The G26 (no backstrap added) trigger reach is perfect, the 43x reach is shorter, causing my trigger finger to go through too far. I had realized this before, but had just compensated by retracting my finger a little; more than a little with the 43. With the G26, I grab and go, and everything falls into place with out having to compensate.
My hand is nowhere near as big as yours. I wear a size "L" glove.
As for the dot, it's a game changer for me, but I'll go into that in another post instead of making this one even longer.
Thank you. Never heard of him - but I'm not a RDS guy. I've hosted all of the big companies at my range for a patrol rifle red dot 2-day events, many years ago they brought their handgun prototypes. I felt that they were great for range/paper/steel use, but...gimmicky...for police handguns. I still feel that way, especially how hard the reps are pushing them (makes me skeptical), but I'm becoming more open to the idea of it - even more so as I read this thread and consider different population densities and geography, real-life shooting distances, etc.
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Spend some time reading that paper and go on YouTube and watch some of his optic tests and you might find yourself coming around more quickly.
While I find the first 38 pages mildly interesting, the first truly interesting thing I found in the 73-page paper starts at page 39. There starts a 2011 study of 27 college students shooting iron sights vs RDS at 15, 30 and 45 feet, then with Simmunitions in force-on-force scenarios. On the range, the students started with their guns out at 'center chest retention', not a duty or concealment holster - which is vastly different, of course. The biggest complaint to RDS is actually 'finding' it from the draw. So, from the center chest retention, and at only distances of 15 ft and beyond - the students shot the RDS better. I think most average gun-guys could have saved him the time of the experiment and told him the outcome of that.
The scenario testing was done using the accuracy of where the Simunition projectiles impacted.......I was a Sims instructor way-back-when, they were extremely inaccurate, even in 2011. I can't speak as to their accuracy nowadays.
I kinda' breezed through the rest and didn't see any more actual testing. LOTS of information though, and I appreciate you finding it and posting.
Did you find the other links to the distances information you posted?
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fieldgrade
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Condescension doesn’t play real well down here.
Huh? Derek didn't write it. If he takes offense that I don't love a 2011 study that he had nothing to do with - too bad. There was LOTS of good info in that paper, I just wanted more than a 2011 study of 27 college students. Should I have said that in a more flowery way?
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I'm right handed, and was taught to shoot a rifle with my left eye shut, by my dad. He was taught to shoot that way by his dad, and possibly by the Army when he joined in 1950. It was a natural extension of this for me to shoot a pistol one-eyed from a Weaver stance, which I did for years. I also shot a shotgun with my left eye shut, and couldn't grasp how my dove-hunting buddies did it with both eyes open. I saw double when I tried it.
I somehow made it well past 40 (I'm 58) before I learned about eye dominance, which explained the shotgun problem. I tried a number of different methods of dealing with this in order to shoot with both eyes open. After a convo with @AR10ShooterinNC in one of the other dot threads, I decided to try a dot, and put one on a recently-acquired G19 MOS. I could immediately shoot comfortably with both eyes open for the first time in my life.
After several weeks of several minutes a day (most days) of presentation practice with the dot, I discovered that I was aligning the gun to my left eye without consciously trying to. So I grabbed a G19 with irons, and found that I was then naturally aligning the irons to my left eye. So, the dot helps a lot of stuff for me, even improving my use of irons.
I'm now preparing to carry a pistol with a dot. If I'm in a tight spot, and jacked up on adrenaline, both eyes are probably going to be wide open anyway no matter what I do. I might as well be able to train that way, and carry something that works with the way I train.
Murtaugh
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Those recognized as the best in dot training are still teaching point shooting, using suppressor sights, and even the optic housing as a sighting aid from out of the holster to short range. I am also skeptical about dots being better up close at this point. It hasn't panned out in my own experience.
I should have typed “Aaron Cowan,” glad someone else cleared that up.
Human Performance institute did a nice executive summary of an older but extremely comprehensive NYPD study and some Miami-Dade data.
Human Performance institute did a nice executive summary of an older but extremely comprehensive NYPD study and some Miami-Dade data.
I would call that a significant advantage for every possible shooter. Maybe even a clue when $200 can buy a serviceable red dot and every pistol manufacturer is rushing to optic-cut their products as the market dictates it. This thread reads like a early 2000s discussion on why the Aimpoint and ACOG are terrible ideas for anything but the range whilst posting from the super computer that fits in their pocket.
The smallest RDSs like the RMRcc & 407/507k are harder to learn due to the physically small screen space. The RMR, 407/507c, DPP are much easier to acquire the dot since you have a larger window.
Also, astigmatism folks seems to do very well with green dots IME.
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In another lifetime I was an industrial commercial account rep for Sylvania for ten years. Our lab scientists told us that green is the easiest color for the human eye to see.
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Everyone who shoots with/knows me well knows I love red dots on pistols. Been shooting them around 10 years now, and there is no short cut to shooting well with them. It takes practice like everything else.
I will be putting a Holosun on my G-48 this year sometime when I can get my buddy to mill and cerakote it for me. Luckily for me, I can still see good enough to shoot with standard irons. I used my 48 to run the El Prez, and my Gen 2 19 to beat the wizard at Battery Oaks. Both with just irons. But I love me some dots though, lol.
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I will be putting a Holosun on my G-48 this year sometime when I can get my buddy to mill and cerakote it for me. Luckily for me, I can still see good enough to shoot with standard irons. I used my 48 to run the El Prez, and my Gen 2 19 to beat the wizard at Battery Oaks. Both with just irons. But I love me some dots though, lol.
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I was just going to ask Billy if anyone had beat The Wizard running a dot.
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Yes, I have passed it with my edc 19 with a Holosun on it.
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I have moderate astigmatism. Before I found a decent DO who gave me a spot-on contacts prescription, I struggled with washout and distortion on all electronic sights.
Meprolight and Trijicon dual-illum sights were absolutely perfect, though. Even without correction, they were clean, usable reticles.
Green also works well uncorrected. I think the sweet spot is a sight that balances higher visibility (tracking with what @fieldgrade said) with a lower output, which reduces bloom and glare.
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I was remembering looking at old red numeraled digital clock radios at night maybe 20-25 years ago when my vision first started to deteriorate in my early 40’s. The red digits were very blurry. Hard to read for me. I also remember a new 2007 Pontiac that had an all red instrument cluster and I could not read any of it at night.
I replaced those red digital clock radios with newer ones that had green/blue digits. I now see them perfectly at night with no correction, even though I’ve had torn retinas and detached retinas, and deteriorating eyesight.
I also had this discussion with a former .mil helo pilot and fellow IDPA SO who recalled when their gauges were all changed from red to green. He said it was a huge improvement.
I replaced those red digital clock radios with newer ones that had green/blue digits. I now see them perfectly at night with no correction, even though I’ve had torn retinas and detached retinas, and deteriorating eyesight.
I also had this discussion with a former .mil helo pilot and fellow IDPA SO who recalled when their gauges were all changed from red to green. He said it was a huge improvement.
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I have carried a G26 for years, shoot it well. In the past couple years I put an RMR on a G19 and carried it occasionally. I started wanting something a little smaller for carry on the motorcycle and picked up a G43X with a Halosun. For EDC I am running the redicle with the dot/circle for easy acquisition. I shoot it well also.
Red dot's take a little practice and muscle memory but as I get older, I like them more.
Red dot's take a little practice and muscle memory but as I get older, I like them more.
That's my opinion too. I used to dismiss them as gimmicks until I actually got some range time with them. Now I've got 12 optics compatible pistols. 🤷♂️
Thanks for that! Great article!
I know quite a few dudes recommend Cat Crap and similar antifog coatings.
Fogging shouldn’t be a huge issue in a decent single lens (reflex) sight or a well-built and nitrogen-purged enclosed sight. NC and humidity being what they are, it still happens, but it’s never been enough to prevent a usable sight picture at reasonable distances. Blurry red blob goes on target—and a “20 MOA” blob isn’t that big at 25 yards (it’s going to cover 5” at that distance… or the black on a B8). Plus, you don’t really need a “clear” image like you need with corrective eyeglasses. If you’re shooting target-focused, you can shoot a red dot with a paster over the glass and still get the same results.
Honestly, my biggest sight obstructions were accumulated shirt lint and body hair. I would get occasional dot scattering if I forgot to blow out my optic after a couple days.
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