frangible versus HP ammo

Stogies

Stogies

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For HD purposes what are you using? Sometimes you read comments about 5.56 going too easily through walls. Would frangible or HP ammo be a cure for that?
 
overpenetration is overblown. further, penetration is primarily driven by bullet shape and momentum (mass x velocity). With an unstable (yawing) or expanding bullet, more velocity generally means less penetration.

since m193 or .223 equivalent is plentiful for training and very effective load. concern about overpenetration would not be enough for me to leave it.
 
Anybody have any experience with either type of ammo and drywall penetration?
 
Stogies said:
Anybody have any experience with either type of ammo and drywall penetration?
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Fluid usually drives HP expansion, not solids, so I wouldn’t think HP is a solution.
 
The older I get the weirder I start to view some of these conversations in the gun community.

Switching to a rifle is CHOOSING over penetration, it's a feature of a rifle not a bug. I understand trying to mitigate that. But there is no complete mitigation for penetration running a rifle indoors. Hitting your target may not even fix the issue. As a hunter I choose a rifle because I WANT the projectile to pass through the target and leave a larger wound.

If I had serious issues with over penetration, and I do in my house the way it's laid out. I'll choose a shotgun indoors. And that's not even absolute depending on loads, chokes, etc. I'm in a fairly small ranch house. I'm running #5 with an open cylinder in 12 ga. I've got 2 walls between my bedroom door and the inside of my daughter's bedroom that is on the other side of the front door.
 
Frangible is good for about one thing only, shooting steel up close. I’m sure it’s better than a sharp stick in the eye but it would be my last choice for HD use.

Also it is a common misconception that 5.56 will penetrate walls more than other rounds. Your 9mm will actually penetrate more walls in a house than 5.56 will.
 
"For HD purposes what are you using?"

HP in pistol.
Ballistic Tip in rifle.
#1 Buck in shotgun.
 
We have to keep in perspective every over Penetration is a missed shot.

Understanding your backgrounds and layering in-depth in the home is more useful then some bullet.

As a example, if the bad guys (foreground) location is inline with my child's room (background) then I or them need to move so my background is now clear.

If a gun owner can not keep that understanding of depth within a structure , then going hot might not be a good idea.

John
 
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I specifically bought a shotgun for home defense. It's far easier to tailor your load to make hits count and potential misses have a higher probability of being contained in the structure. I know 9mm will shoot through my house and probably my neighbor's house. I expect 5.56 might shoot though my house and enter my neighbor's. So I've got #4 buck in the shotgun, and 00 on the side of the receiver.

 
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JBoyette said:
We have to keep in perspective every over Penetration is a missed shot.
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A missed shot will certainly over penetrate. As someone that has a lot of experience with rifles on human sized game, I'm going to assume that a lot of hits will over penetrate as well. Particularly in the absence of any kind of bullet resistant armor, even soft stuff. I think that's a missing part of the discussion. A rifle is designed to over penetrate. And anything less is a crap shoot that does not begin and end with accuracy. While my experience with 556 in this manner is pretty non existent. I just have a hard time imagining that increasing the velocity of that small projectile does not produce pass through shots. I'm sure that's more so with some projectiles, but I'm skeptical on all hits equal stoppage since not all hits are equal.

And penetration is a game of inches, if not millimeters. I lost a deer this season because of the angle I shot into the body. I'm assuming the projectile hung up on the far shoulder in the hide. I've shot through and through similar sized deer before when not at that acute angle. Just enough resistance to not give me an exit wound and a blood trail. I've got to assume people are similar. Some shots will pass through, some shots will stop based on impacts with bone, muscle, fluid, etc.

Knowing the backdrop and your situation is the solution to all of that though.
 
Derek8404 said:
Frangible is good for about one thing only, shooting steel up close. I’m sure it’s better than a sharp stick in the eye but it would be my last choice for HD use.

Also it is a common misconception that 5.56 will penetrate walls more than other rounds. Your 9mm will actually penetrate more walls in a house than 5.56 will.
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This ^^^
9mm will go through most houses built today unless it hits something solid. 7.62 is the same.

Frangible (like someone said earlier) is just for range work. It’s basically a soft or pressed/powder metal projectile designed to destruct on whatever it hits with.
 
xtp308 said:
This ^^^
9mm will go through most houses built today unless it hits something solid. 7.62 is the same.

Frangible (like someone said earlier) is just for range work. It’s basically a soft or pressed/powder metal projectile designed to destruct on whatever it hits with.
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So HP ammo is probably the better choice for HD then?
 
chiefjason said:
A missed shot will certainly over penetrate. As someone that has a lot of experience with rifles on human sized game, I'm going to assume that a lot of hits will over penetrate as well. Particularly in the absence of any kind of bullet resistant armor, even soft stuff. I think that's a missing part of the discussion. A rifle is designed to over penetrate. And anything less is a crap shoot that does not begin and end with accuracy. While my experience with 556 in this manner is pretty non existent. I just have a hard time imagining that increasing the velocity of that small projectile does not produce pass through shots. I'm sure that's more so with some projectiles, but I'm skeptical on all hits equal stoppage since not all hits are equal.

And penetration is a game of inches, if not millimeters. I lost a deer this season because of the angle I shot into the body. I'm assuming the projectile hung up on the far shoulder in the hide. I've shot through and through similar sized deer before when not at that acute angle. Just enough resistance to not give me an exit wound and a blood trail. I've got to assume people are similar. Some shots will pass through, some shots will stop based on impacts with bone, muscle, fluid, etc.

Knowing the backdrop and your situation is the solution to all of that though.
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Correct,
Hears the deal as you pointed out a well placed shit does not mean you get a exit hole, and if you do that pass through might not be inline with the point of aim.

It's a wild card that can not be accounted for or calibrated in the results category.

But ever missed shot is 100% inline with the line of sight and is accounted for.

--

There is no reason for anyone to not have a actionable plan to repel a home invasion at this point. Nor the tools to do it well.

Between training classes, YouTube, blog posts and CFF people should be good to go
 
Read a report sometime back that showed m193 being the preferred choice for entry teams because it had less "over penetration" than 9mm in houses. The m193 fragmented when striking structure, reducing penetration. (Although, my personal experience says m193 will pretty much shoot through a house.)

Overall, any round that works is going to "over penetrate" a house and this includes shotgun. Although, birdshot at house/room distances can be effective and reduce the chances of projectiles leaving the house, a packed shot charge will still penetrate drywall.

I would focus more on chosing a round that works and being accurate with it, rather than focusing on what a round doesn't do.
 
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Eastwood Outfitters said:
Correct,
Hears the deal as you pointed out a well placed shit does not mean you get a exit hole, and if you do that pass through might not be inline with the point of aim.

It's a wild card that can not be accounted for or calibrated in the results category.

But ever missed shot is 100% inline with the line of sight and is accounted for.

--

There is no reason for anyone to not have a actionable plan to repel a home invasion at this point. Nor the tools to do it well.

Between training classes, YouTube, blog posts and CFF people should be good to go
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A "well placed shot...shot"


LOL
 
Bwahahaha !! Yep, you do need to aim that carefully and be sure your Fatboy belt is well broken in before entering the approach space if in crisis mode.
 
This thread reminds me to load up some of my frangible projectiles I got. My brother used to make them. He got me a bunch
 
Part of the reason for asking is I have some 10 years old 45 ACP frangible ammo that at the time was marketed for HD.
 
Stogies said:
Part of the reason for asking is I have some 10 years old 45 ACP frangible ammo that at the time was marketed for HD.
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I think I remember youtube video of frangible ammo being tested and falling short in penetration. It makes a nasty surface wound, but likely not enough to stop a determined or drugged up attacker.
Remember, the two things that stop an attacker are rapid blood loss and CNS hits. Both require penetration.
 
www.theboxotruth.com

The Box O' Truth #12 - Insulated Walls

Since we started this project, many people have asked, "Why don't you fill the walls with insulation before you shoot them? Maybe it would make a difference." Well, the standard answer is, "Interior walls, at least here in Texas, are not insulated. Only exterior walls are insulated." But…..who...
www.theboxotruth.com www.theboxotruth.com

The box o truth tested all sorts of stuff. Link is to insulated interior wall construction. Might find it informative...
 
I shot a ton of 5.56 frangible at some rocks in the desert last night.
 
Stogies said:
Part of the reason for asking is I have some 10 years old 45 ACP frangible ammo that at the time was marketed for HD.
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There was a trend years back where people actually thought frangible was good HD ammo. Lots of companies were marketing it, and was expensive AF. Like 5-6 bucks a round. MagSafe, Glaser, extreme shock…
 
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