Get off the bench!

Tim

Tim

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I’m at the Run n Gun this weekend RO’ing a rifle only stage.

So far, I’ve seen ~125 shooters. Course of fire is
- 90 seconds
- 2 shooters per team both do the following:
- 3 impacts at 175yds on an 18X36 target from standing
- 3 impact from sitting/kneeling on 36” square at 215yds
- 3 impacts from prone on 24x36” at 340yds

We are running ~75% failure rate. Most of those can’t get past the standing.

These are BIG targets at reasonable distance for an AR. Folks need to get off the bench! It’s amazing us how poorly shooters are performing.
 
My military rifle match has us shooting at 8"x13" plates from prone at 200 yards with irons. We also shoot at a 18"x36" from 200 yards standing.
I'd say our success rate is better, but there's no running going on.
 
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how much running are we talking? I haven't done much since knee surgery 14 years ago. if i run more than a few yards, i feel it for at least a few days and any one of my footfalls can turn into a faceplant without warning. I get that just walking sometimes these days.
is there a shot limit? shooting after running? what are we talking?
 
Torn and Frayed said:
average age of shooters?
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Early 30s?

Actual range of 16-63

Active duty Mil, Fat guys, skinny guys, marathoners, walkers, slow guys, old guys, old ladies,
 
That sounds fun. How much running is involved?
 
I don’ shoot rifles much, but when I take my son, he will only sit at a bench to zero a rifle, or shoot at 400 yards, otherwise he’s standing.
 
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DrScaryGuy said:
how much running are we talking? I haven't done much since knee surgery 14 years ago. if i run more than a few yards, i feel it for at least a few days and any one of my footfalls can turn into a faceplant without warning. I get that just walking sometimes these days.
is there a shot limit? shooting after running? what are we talking?
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Catfish said:
That sounds fun. How much running is involved?
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The course this weekend is around 3.5 miles. Not a bit of it flat! Think gravel roads and forest trails. A few obstacles along the way. I’m out of shape with bad knees and was able to do it comfortably. Everyone I’ve ever encountered at these matches has had the attitude of “compete against yourself, have fun”. There’s very little ego involved.

Top speed was 54 minutes, slowest 116 minutes. You carry rifle, pistol, ammo, water and anything else you may want. And it truly was very hilly.

6 shooting stages along the way. Your overall score is based 50% on run time and 50% shooting score.

This match was a 2-man team event. So I walked with a partner. Each stage had an element of teamwork involved. Just a ton of fun.
 
Where is the match? Link to details? Sounds like DMM matches almost that woody use to run
 
Moth said:
The course this weekend is around 3.5 miles. Not a bit of it flat! Think gravel roads and forest trails. A few obstacles along the way. I’m out of shape with bad knees and was able to do it comfortably. Everyone I’ve ever encountered at these matches has had the attitude of “compete against yourself, have fun”. There’s very little ego involved.

Top speed was 54 minutes, slowest 116 minutes. You carry rifle, pistol, ammo, water and anything else you may want. And it truly was very hilly.

6 shooting stages along the way. Your overall score is based 50% on run time and 50% shooting score.

This match was a 2-man team event. So I walked with a partner. Each stage had an element of teamwork involved. Just a ton of fun.
Click to expand...
I need to do this. I want to do this. But It'll be a hike for me. When's the next match?
 
Even the lever gun guys have gotten into showing itty bitty groups. There is nothing less fun than shooting a light levergun chambered in 45-70 or greater off a bench.
 
Tim said:
I’m at the Run n Gun this weekend RO’ing a rifle only stage.

So far, I’ve seen ~125 shooters. Course of fire is
- 90 seconds
- 2 shooters per team both do the following:
- 3 impacts at 175yds on an 18X36 target from standing
- 3 impact from sitting/kneeling on 36” square at 215yds
- 3 impacts from prone on 24x36” at 340yds

We are running ~75% failure rate. Most of those can’t get past the standing.

These are BIG targets at reasonable distance for an AR. Folks need to get off the bench! It’s amazing us how poorly shooters are performing.
Click to expand...

Color me NOT SURPRISED, but that's not a popular opinion.
 
JimB said:
Even the lever gun guys have gotten into showing itty bitty groups. There is nothing less fun than shooting a light levergun chambered in 45-70 or greater off a bench.
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Shooting a lightweight 12gauge with hi velocity slugs off a bench?
 
Ouch. Definitely in agreement with you there. Shooting from a comfy bench with all the time in the world and no expectation of physical input is fine and dandy, but what matters in the real world is holding your rifle steady enough to make hits supported solely by your own body strength and skill. We could all do with more practice on that front, myself included.
 
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I know my opinion on pew pew is unpopular but Tim saw the results first hand. I'm a certified Muzzleloading Instructor and many of you on this board discount that but what you don't understand is that also teaching MARKSMANSHIP is part and parcel to the gig. Poor fundamentals is in direct relation to poor results on target. All a modern arm does is make it easier for poor shots to hit anything. Black powder/muzzleloaders are very unforgiving in that respect.

In North South Skirmish competition with Civil War arms, all shooting is offhand for accuracy and against the clock with unbroken targets counting against your score. On more than one occasion, a N-SSA team has gone head to head with a military team with modern guns and thrashed them. The only "leveling" rule is the modern guys have to fire single shot and load from their pockets.

So yeah, get off that bench and learn to shoot properly.
 
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Dave951 said:
I know my opinion on pew pew is unpopular but Tim saw the results first hand. I'm a certified Muzzleloading Instructor and many of you on this board discount that but what you don't understand is that also teaching MARKSMANSHIP is part and parcel to the gig. Poor fundamentals is in direct relation to poor results on target. All a modern arm does is make it easier for poor shots to hit anything. Black powder/muzzleloaders are very unforgiving in that respect.
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I don't discount it all. I grew up shooting flintlocks almost exclusively. Recreationally, competitively, hunting...I never touched a center fire rifle until I was in the Navy.

I can say with confidence that learning to shoot this way made me a much better marksman.

Nothing tames a flinch and teaches follow through like shooting a flintlock. There's just that split second for the process to work that you need to wait for. And the flash in the pan makes you adjust to any kind of distraction during follow through.

Nothing says, "hit your target!" like knowing you only have that 1 shot on the trophy buck.
 
I personally don't like shooting off a bench at all but I can't think of a single range near me that lets you shoot from anything other then standing or the bench. Sitting, kneeling, prone....they aren't options.
 
Tim said:
I don't discount it all. I grew up shooting flintlocks almost exclusively. Recreationally, competitively, hunting...I never touched a center fire rifle until I was in the Navy.

I can say with confidence that learning to shoot this way made me a much better marksman.

Nothing tames a flinch and teaches follow through like shooting a flintlock. There's just that split second for the process to work that you need to wait for. And the flash in the pan makes you adjust to any kind of distraction during follow through.

Nothing says, "hit your target!" like knowing you only have that 1 shot on the trophy buck.
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Darn Skippy.

I'd like to see how many of the run n gun pew pew Bois can hit 4 clay pigeons hanging on strings, offhand at 50yd shooting single shot, loading from the pocket, in under 1:10. With iron sights no less. There's more than a few N-SSA guys who can with a Civil War musket.

Shooter Ready. Standby. Beep. Watch the fumbling commence and the excuses flow like water.
 
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spittinfire said:
I personally don't like shooting off a bench at all but I can't think of a single range near me that lets you shoot from anything other then standing or the bench. Sitting, kneeling, prone....they aren't options.
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@VOD Tactical is only 1:20 from Denver, NC. Shoot darn near any way you like as long as you're not an idiot.
 
Dave951 said:
Darn Skippy.

I'd like to see how many of the run n gun pew pew Bois can hit 4 clay pigeons hanging on strings, offhand at 50yd shooting single shot, loading from the pocket, in under 1:10. With iron sights no less. There's more than a few N-SSA guys who can with a Civil War musket.

Shooter Ready. Standby. Beep. Watch the fumbling commence and the excuses flow like water.
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meh...now you're going a bit overboard. N-SSA, NMLRA, etc. types tend to be dedicated hobbyists that put in the work. Therefore they have good results.

Folks shooting modern arms that put in the work on par with N-SSA shooters are outstanding marksmen. The common denominator is the work, the effort.

FYI...one of the major reasons why I no longer shoot with muzzleloading groups that often is the crippling virtue signaling about how superior their choice of hobby is. The Run-N-Gun crowd is - by far - the most encouraging and welcoming community of shooters I've been around.
 
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Tim said:
meh...now you're going a bit overboard. N-SSA, NMLRA, etc. types tend to be dedicated hobbyists that put in the work. Therefore they have good results.

Folks shooting modern arms that put in the work on par with N-SSA shooters are outstanding marksmen. The common denominator is the work, the effort.

FYI...one of the major reasons why I no longer shoot with muzzleloading groups that often is the crippling virtue signaling about how superior their choice of hobby is.
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Same thing can be said about tacticool types. I used to shoot 3G, IDPA, IPSC, IHMSA. I quit 3G after the first Ft Benning match. But, in nearly every case, they look down on muzzleloaders as inaccurate and you'll have to pardon my schadenfreude when I hand tacticool his head at the range these days.
 
Dave951 said:
Same thing can be said about tacticool types. I used to shoot 3G, IDPA, IPSC, IHMSA. I quit 3G after the first Ft Benning match. But, in nearly every case, they look down on muzzleloaders as inaccurate and you'll have to pardon my schadenfreude when I hand tacticool his head at the range these days.
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I suspect you'd be comparing "YOU", the dedicated practitioner of your craft, against a casual 3G shooter. Muzzleloading doesn't exactly lend itself well to the casual shooter. Again, I'd stake my claim on it being the 'work' not the particular discipline that sets shooters apart.

It would be an interesting social experiment to take a Top N-SSA shooter and a Top 3G shooter and put them side by side. Give each some period of time to work on the other's platform. Then put them together in a head to head. Have each set up a typical competition scenario for their discipline, then have both shooters shoot both courses of fire.

I wonder who'd come out ahead? Could be a groovy game show.
 
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spittinfire said:
I personally don't like shooting off a bench at all but I can't think of a single range near me that lets you shoot from anything other then standing or the bench. Sitting, kneeling, prone....they aren't options.
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Tim said:
@VOD Tactical is only 1:20 from Denver, NC. Shoot darn near any way you like as long as you're not an idiot.
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@spittinfire , come on out and we can shoot really fast and miss everything together.
 
Tim said:
I suspect you'd be comparing "YOU", the dedicated practitioner of your craft, against a casual 3G shooter. Muzzleloading doesn't exactly lend itself well to the casual shooter. Again, I'd stake my claim on it being the 'work' not the particular discipline that sets shooters apart.

It would be an interesting social experiment to take a Top N-SSA shooter and a Top 3G shooter and put them side by side. Give each some period of time to work on the other's platform. Then put them together in a head to head. Have each set up a typical competition scenario for their discipline, then have both shooters shoot both courses of fire.

I wonder who'd come out ahead? Could be a groovy game show.
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The Top Shot game show has had a number of 3G types on it and while they do better than a trap shooter, they usually don't fare too well when any event involves accuracy. The winner is often somebody with experience across several disciplines.

In my time in competition shooting, I've held my own most times, wheels fell off a couple and sometimes finished in "the money". I'm currently shooting N-SSA because
1)I like history
2) where else can a "civie" shoot live artillery
3) it's a darn sight less expensive than 3G even with me having a Dillon
4) it's the only shooting sport done as a team
5) it's a balance of speed against accuracy, you can't miss fast enough to hit anything.
6) because it's a team event, range lawyers are darn rare. My 88yo dad is on our team and that can't happen in any other shooting sport. Multi generational teams are not uncommon in the N-SSA
7) bonfire/campfire parties at Nationals are great fun where you can get as inebriated as you want or as full of good cooking as you can hold

There's a lot to be said for N-SSA but back to the original question, as I've said before, pew pew is fine but you should eat yer peas before dessert and learn the fundamentals first.
 
spittinfire said:
I personally don't like shooting off a bench at all but I can't think of a single range near me that lets you shoot from anything other then standing or the bench. Sitting, kneeling, prone....they aren't options.
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location | Project Appleseed

appleseedinfo.org appleseedinfo.org

Charlotte Rifle and Pistol, April 23-24, Project Appleseed event: doesn't just allow sitting, standing a prone, but actually teaches how to do them well! :)

There are other events in Charlotte, plus lots at Ramseur. My NC geography isn't what it ought to be, but I'm pretty sure Charlotte's pretty reachable from Denver. https://appleseedinfo.org/schedule/?qstate=NC&state=North Carolina
 
People should endeavor to find ranges and activities that allow them to learn to move and shoot from different positions with their rifle/carbine. Shoot while moving, with sling, around and off barriers, etc.

Super fun and eye opening to get a better understanding of the capabilities of a modern sporting rifle and get some confidence in it's use.
 
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