Gun laws in Switzerland vs US

IroquoisPliskin

IroquoisPliskin

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So as someone who is putting kids through school, I start to scrutinize policies more so than I used to. Sending kids to a public school is scary because there are shootings all the time and you never know when one day the news is going to come on and it will be your kids school that just got shot up. Obviously no one has come up with a good solution to prevent this from happening yet or we wouldnt still be hearing about it nearly everyday. So, while the US might not have the worst gun violence issue (ie. Mexico), we are still toward the top of the list for mass shootings.

Now, Id like to take a look at what is going on in other countries that are more lenient on gun laws, particularly Switzerland, since they have very high gun ownership yet haven't had a mass shooting in roughly 2 decades. I'm not saying that they have everything perfect, but lets take a look at some of the things that they get right. Below is an article I have sourced:
https://www.businessinsider.com/switzerland-gun-laws-rates-of-gun-deaths-2018-2
https://www.businessinsider.com/switzerland-gun-laws-rates-of-gun-deaths-2018-2

TLDR points on what they do right;
1. The Swiss take handling guns very seriously and make every effort to instill good practices at a young age. Every year there is a marksmanship contest that all boys and girls between ages 13-17 are encouraged to enter where along the way they are taught proper and safe gun handling techniques, basic operation, and above all how to make an accurate shot every time. At then end a King or Queen marksman is crowned for the year.

2. Starting at the age of 18 everyone is required to enlist in the Swiss armed services. Even though the Swiss have not participated in a global conflict in some time, they retain an attitude of armed neutrality where every citizen is prepared. They also participate in peace keeping operations.

3.At the end of their service, every citizen is allowed to purchase their service rifle and keep it at their home. The only requirement is participating in training exercises periodically to retain proficiency with their rifle. Side note, I once met a guy from Switzerland who had 4 generations of service rifles hanging up in his office, it was really cool.

4. They have vetting processes to prevent unstable people from owning firearms, which has drastically reduced the number of violent crime involving firearms compared to the US.

Finally, for anyone who works in the gun industry, there is nothing worse than finding out that your establishment sold a gun to someone who then went and used it in some atrocity, or killed children. Its always the people that seem normal who end up committing the worst crimes.
What do you guys think of the Swiss laws?

Lets have a discussion, not a flame war.
 
With respect to a discussion of how it might work outside of Switzerland, #4 ends everything as evidenced by every may-issue state in the union. Once there is a way to pick and choose without basis, the elites will choose themselves alone.
 
IroquoisPliskin said:
Finally, for anyone who works in the gun industry, there is nothing worse than finding out that your establishment sold a gun to someone who then went and used it in some atrocity, or killed children. Its always the people that seem normal who end up committing the worst crimes.
What do you guys think of the Swiss laws?

Lets have a discussion, not a flame war.
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Should the people who sold cars feel bad when people die? You know some atrocities like running over people in a parade. Maybe the truck rental place who rented the truck used for the London bridge incident. School shootings are actually pretty rare when you take out all the BS criteria.
 
A perspective is that Switzerland's laws are highly restrictive, not more lenient. Unless you do 'these things,' you cannot have a gun. I would say from a strict constitutional perspective, ours is the most lenient: you want a gun, you can have a gun.

Also, the population of Switzerland of ages 15-64 is under 6 million, so just over half the population of North Carolina. I would think that with a small, presumably homogenous population AND with a requirement to serve, it's easier to have higher ownership with fewer crimes and higher gun : owner proportion.

Edited to add, from the school perspective, I have no contribution. We homeschool.

Interesting discussion.
 
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#1: Great.
#2: Nope.
#3a: Cool. But 3b "The only requirement is participating in training exercises periodically": Nope
#4: I echo what @Jayne says above, the vetting process is a slippery slope that is best avoided. And I'd add that your statement "has drastically reduced the number of violent crime involving firearms" is false. I posit that their homogeneous society is the cause of their low violent crime rate.
 
One of the problems with the "mass shooting" statistics is what they include as a "mass shooting".

When some gang bangers in south Chicago shoot up some rival gang, it's classified as a "mass shooting". If you remove all of these instances, the actual amount of "mass shootings" in the US is significantly lower.
 
Scsmith42 said:
One of the problems with the "mass shooting" statistics is what they include as a "mass shooting".

When some gang bangers in south Chicago shoot up some rival gang, it's classified as a "mass shooting". If you remove all of these instances, the actual amount of "mass shootings" in the US is significantly lower.
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Most places except the US define a 'mass shooting' as 4 or more victims.
 
I’d be interested in knowing how the Swiss legal system handles criminals. Are there plea deals? Do they release prisoners because of overcrowding? Is there low or no bail, etc.? One of our many problems is that we’re too lenient on crime.
 
While training is nice, it shouldn’t be mandatory.

If you’re not such a problem that you’re (1) still in prison (2) institutionalized or (3) executed…there should be no limitations. No NFA, no NICS, no waiting periods.

Your “need” for safety shouldn’t impact my freedom.

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Jeppo said:
I’d be interested in knowing how the Swiss legal system handles criminals. Are there plea deals? Do they release prisoners because of overcrowding? Is there low or no bail, etc.? One of our many problems is that we’re too lenient on crime.
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I agree that it really isn't as much a gun control debate as it is a mental health management problem where in the US too much money is invested in over policing with poor outcomes due to the court system. Money would be better spent on the education system and making schools safer while also getting people the help they need before they resort to crime by being a proactive force instead of reactive policing.
 
IroquoisPliskin said:
I agree that it really isn't as much a gun control debate as it is a mental health management problem where in the US too much money is invested in over policing with poor outcomes due to the court system. Money would be better spent on the education system and making schools safer while also getting people the help they need before they resort to crime by being a proactive force instead of reactive policing.
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This has to be a joke right. You think more money needs to go to schools?
 
It's a hell of a lot easier to lower crime statistics when you don't have generational criminality and fostered government handout dependence and import more of it every day in order to displace the people you disagree with or provide your political contributers with slave labour. Both sides of the aisle do it and both sides need a trip to the landfill on a rail.
 
Cowboy said:
This has to be a joke right. You think more money needs to go to schools?
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I think we need to spend money…but just to build gallows in the town squares. 😎
 
I'm seeing two different topics here, how the Swiss do it, and something something in schools. I'd prefer not to conflate the two as one discussion because I think they're two separate discussions.

But regarding public schools, if I can get the state to give me back $10k a year per school age child, I'll guarantee that their school is well protected and well armed!
 
IroquoisPliskin said:
Im not joking, are you joking?

It really wouldn't hurt for the local police to at least beef up security around grade schools to keep the kids safe instead of piddling around busting potheads.
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Ok so you are talking about two different things. That would be spending more money on police not the school system. I think a SRO should be at every school but let's not go overboard with security when the percentage of incidents is barely measurable.
 
Cowboy said:
Ok so you are talking about two different things. That would be spending more money on police not the school system. I think a SRO should be at every school but let's not go overboard with security when the percentage of incidents is barely measurable.
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No schools actually have to provide a budget for the "rentacops" that usually patrol on bikes and don't carry guns.
But police and schools both get funded from a pool of local resources, it's more about allocating them better.
 
IroquoisPliskin said:
No schools actually have to provide a budget for the "rentacops" that usually patrol on bikes and don't carry guns.
But police and schools both get funded from a pool of local resources, it's more about allocating them better.
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Rent a cops aren't SRO's.
 
Chuckman said:
I'm seeing two different topics here, how the Swiss do it, and something something in schools. I'd prefer not to conflate the two as one discussion because I think they're two separate discussions.

But regarding public schools, if I can get the state to give me back $10k a year per school age child, I'll guarantee that their school is well protected and well armed!
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Yeah I go off on tangents.
I picked the swiss though because the NRA likes to compare the US to them even though our laws are radically different.
 
Catfish said:
I'm glad that the Swiss found a solution that works for the Swiss.

They dont seem to be fighting amongst themselves over the issue.

I dont want to import theur system though.
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Yeah I mean the takeaway was Not to adopt their laws but look at them while being introspective, from what I understand they are fairly unified in their patriotism and don't suffer the same fierce division that we unfortunately do here in the states.
 
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A. Swiss citizens are basically armed bank security and the country is a fortified bank.
B. Despite the linguistic diversity, Swiss culture is very homogenous.
C. Swiss police will crack open skulls and citizens would quickly end "Peaceful, but fiery" riots protests.
D. They also wouldn't throw protests for a career criminal ODing after resisting arrest after passing off counterfeit currency.
E. You gotta be Swiss or a very rich conformist to Swiss culture to live in Switzerland.

It's not a gun issue.
 
I think Pliskin made some good points up front. No one has so far explained why if #4 permits widespread ownership in Switzerland, it would somehow preclude widespread ownership in the US.

Anyone who thinks our criminal justice system is too lenient, or that our schools are overfunded, obviously hasn't spent any time up close with either. Switzerland has far more lenient sentencing than we do, and their gun crime rates are far lower. They spend far more on their schools, too.
 
JohnFreeman said:
Except they don't

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1) Will find the studies later, but looking at schools outside of the other social services that affect children is silly. Same with healthcare: we spend way more than any other country, but because we don't, e.g., give poor people places to live or access to basic primary care, our outcomes are awful. If you load in other spending, confident Switzerland is spending on its children at a far higher rate.

2) Quantity of spending is no substitute for egalitarian spending. We spend far less in poor areas than in rich ones; ergo quality and outcomes are widely variant here in a way they are not in Switz.
 
Fellas, to be fair, this is a pointless endeavor.

The wildly different demographics have already been pointed out. Immigration into Switzerland is tighter than a bank vault. Whereas our southern border alone is a giant seive.

The country is 55 times smaller than the US in terms of population.

They do speak three different languages there, but we now speak two, soon to be eleventy seven.
 
holdenarm said:
I think Pliskin made some good points up front. No one has so far explained why if #4 permits widespread ownership in Switzerland, it would somehow preclude widespread ownership in the US.

Anyone who thinks our criminal justice system is too lenient, or that our schools are overfunded, obviously hasn't spent any time up close with either. Switzerland has far more lenient sentencing than we do, and their gun crime rates are far lower. They spend far more on their schools, too.
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In the article I attached it said the vetting process is like acquiring a driver's license with a basic proficiency test. I need to research that part More.
 
My youngest son’s girlfriend is a dual Swiss citizen. Born in Switzerland. She’s a PHD candidate here. Swiss dad is an engineer. US mom is an engineer. Dad got stiffed by the IRS over something they weren’t happy with years ago regarding some of his assets that had always been in Switzerland or something and they took something from him. Never been happy with the US gov over that.

Nevertheless, they are all flaming libs.

Go figure.
 
There's no comparison between Switzerland and the U S. For firearms ownership and use. The Swiss are no longer a nation of enthusiastic riflemen. For many adult Swiss of military age, having the service rifle at home and qualifying annually is an obligation. Once it ends, they are done. The ammunition basic load is no longer kept at home but rather at the armory due to a shooting with a service rifle. Sporting shooting is very controlled. The primary shooting is prone, 300 meter service rifle. If you aren't doing that, it can be difficult to find a place to shoot.

Not putting Switzerland down, as far as firearms and shooting goes but it is good to know the facts

However, firearms (service rifles) are accepted by the public and no one gets hysterical when some teens get on a city bus with their rifles to go to a schutzebfest
 
holdenarm said:
1) Will find the studies later, but looking at schools outside of the other social services that affect children is silly. Same with healthcare: we spend way more than any other country, but because we don't, e.g., give poor people places to live or access to basic primary care, our outcomes are awful. If you load in other spending, confident Switzerland is spending on its children at a far higher rate.

2) Quantity of spending is no substitute for egalitarian spending. We spend far less in poor areas than in rich ones; ergo quality and outcomes are widely variant here in a way they are not in Switz.
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So you think more welfare to the freeloaders is the answer! Yeah that’ll get er done!
 
I never noticed any school shootings when it was not illegal to carry a firearm on school property. I know the prohibition of firearms on school property has been eased a bit, but carrying concealed inside a school building, unless I am mistaken, is still not allowed. The possibility of someone at a school having a firearm and the will to use it evidently was a deterrent to anyone doing something stupid on campus. When they became gun-free zones, the evil people had a safe place to be evil.

What happens in Switzerland may be fine for Switzerland. We are not Switzerland. We have freedoms they lack. I will take freedoms over excessive government control
 
IroquoisPliskin said:
I agree that it really isn't as much a gun control debate as it is a mental health management problem where in the US too much money is invested in over policing with poor outcomes due to the court system. Money would be better spent on the education system and making schools safer while also getting people the help they need before they resort to crime by being a proactive force instead of reactive policing.
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You assume a potentially invalid starting point for your discussion and questions.

As previously noted, Switzerland's population is much more homogeneous than ours. That results in a society with a far greater degree of shared values and far fewer differences to cause social friction.
 
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JohnFreeman said:
It's worked so well everywhere we've tried it.
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That's actually quite true.

If there are problems with state redistribution in the United States, they are specific to the way it has been implemented in the US. Believe me, I work with people who deal with government benefit programs. In many instances, those programs are horribly run because we underinvest in administration and set up arbitrary rules that reduce their efficiency. It doesn't have to be that way.
 
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