Help a newbie out

thrillhill

thrillhill

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I want a silencer for a .22 rifle to squirrel hunt with during deer season.

My job keeps me super busy in a really detailed way. I know the information I need is in this sub-forum. But by the time I get home and try to wade through all the nomenclature my brain starts shutting down or begging for libation of the weekend variety.

So at the risk of sounding super lazy, can y'all spell it out for me like your talking to someone who doesn't have a clue?

I have no experience whatsoever with anything NFA related other than notarizing trust stuff for customers back when I was a notary and worked at Ed's.



I'm thinking about going to one of the local gun shops and using a kiosk. Or is there a better way that results in me making less trips?

Do I need to do anything before I go?

Do I need to choose my silencer ahead of time and then pay for it on my first visit? If so, can I pay cash or do I need to use a credit card? What website do I go to to pick one out.

Do I also pay the government tax on my first trip to the kiosk?


What happens if I buy one from the kiosk and then later die of natural causes? Does somebody from .gov come to my house to take the silencer? Because if I buy from the kiosk I haven't made a trust or anything like that correct?

Please keep in mind I don't know the differences between Form whatever and I barely know any of the lingo/nomenclature.


Thanks for any help!
 
I’d call your LGS / SS to ask some of these questions. I just wanted to mention the Capitol Armory option if you were not aware - you can get a silencer without leaving your house. They can literally ship your silencer to your house after F4 approval. I’ve heard positive feedback on their process but haven’t yet been a customer myself.

How to Buy a Suppressor Online - Capitol Armory

Capitol Armory makes it simple to buy a suppressor online with a large selection of "in stock" suppressors from 8 major manufacturers.
www.capitolarmory.com www.capitolarmory.com
 
thrillhill said:
I want a silencer for a .22 rifle to squirrel hunt with during deer season.

My job keeps me super busy in a really detailed way. I know the information I need is in this sub-forum. But by the time I get home and try to wade through all the nomenclature my brain starts shutting down or begging for libation of the weekend variety.

So at the risk of sounding super lazy, can y'all spell it out for me like your talking to someone who doesn't have a clue?

I have no experience whatsoever with anything NFA related other than notarizing trust stuff for customers back when I was a notary and worked at Ed's.



1. I'm thinking about going to one of the local gun shops and using a kiosk. Or is there a better way that results in me making less trips?

2. Do I need to do anything before I go?

3. Do I need to choose my silencer ahead of time and then pay for it on my first visit? 4. If so, can I pay cash or do I need to use a credit card? 5. What website do I go to to pick one out.

6. Do I also pay the government tax on my first trip to the kiosk?


7. What happens if I buy one from the kiosk and then later die of natural causes? 8. Does somebody from .gov come to my house to take the silencer? 9. Because if I buy from the kiosk I haven't made a trust or anything like that correct?

Please keep in mind I don't know the differences between Form whatever and I barely know any of the lingo/nomenclature.


Thanks for any help!
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I know there’s been a couple replies as I start typing this, and might be more before I finish…but I’m going to attempt to number all your questions and answer them.

1. First, keep in mind the kiosk is for nothing other than collecting fingerprints for Silencer Shop. That’s all it does. You can actually roll your own at home if you prefer. The ATF will send you blank cards for free, and you can get a fingerprint pad off Amazon (or lots of other places) for <$10. If you did it all just the right way, you could get away with zero trips anywhere. Capitol Armory is one of those options. But you could also roll your own prints and mail them in and not have to visit a kiosk without using CA. Any dealer in NC can mail you your silencer once it’s approved…but a lot of them either don’t know they can, or don’t want the hassle of filling out another form. (It’s a standard non-OTC firearms transaction after the NFA approval, and qualifies in NC because no background check is needed since one was done during the form processing).

2. I can thing of a couple things. (1) I’m going to assume you want to file electronically using eForms. I say this because they’re currently being approved at ~100 days, compared to 12+ months for a paper form. (You can file with eForms but send paper prints if you want). So you need to eforms.atf.gov and create an account/PIN. You’ll have to use that during the submission process. (2) You need to decide if you want to file as an individual or an entity (trust/LLC/corp).

3. Easiest way would be going in knowing what you wanted to buy. If you want to take all the guess work and research out of the process, just buy a Dead Air Mask. Lots of options out there, but you usually can’t go wrong with that one. But if you want to get your hands on various options, that can only be done at the store, or a silencer shoot, or if you know somebody with a variety.

4. That’ll depend on where you go. I’d assume any shop would take cash for the silencer. Most would take cash for the tax stamp as well and then pay the ATF using the dealer’s credit card. (If using eForms, paying for the stamp is part of the process. Simplified process is you fill out the form, then pay, then hit submit.)

5. Even if you don’t buy from Silencer Shop, their site is a good place to shop. Also check Capitol Armory, Hansohn Brothers, and Tar Heel State Firearms.

6. (Remember from above, kiosk is just for collecting prints). As I mentioned in #4, if using eForms, you’ll pay for the stamp when submitting the form. You could pay the dealer cash well in advance of that happening? I know you can buy a stamp from Silencer Shop and it attaches to your submission, and that would take a credit card. But most local SS dealers can actually sell you a silencer from their inventory for less than they list it on SS (dealers set prices on SS…they’re not controlled by SS), and you could probably pay cash that way.

7. Regardless of how you buy it (individual vs entity), it will transfer tax free to your legal heir or somebody else depending on how the entity is set up.

8. Nope. As an individual, the executor of your estate can be in possession until it’s legally transferred (tax free) using a Form 5. As an entity, it would be able to be possessed by the other trustees, beneficiary, etc.

9. Again…kiosk is just for prints. You can buy from SS as an individual or entity.


Ask anything else you want. Or if you want to talk through it at some point, send me a PM with your number.
 
I will add this…

I choose to use a local dealer (THSF) for all mine. He has his own fingerprinting equipment.

If you use SS, and their kiosk system, you only need to scan prints one time. Then you can buy your next one while sitting by the fire bowl. (I can do the same from THSF).

The key to the SS system is the dealer you choose. Some have the eForms thing figured out, and some are taking multiple weeks or even over a month to do what can be done in <15 minutes.
 
@BigWaylon Tar Heel State Firearms is one of our sponsors I see. I don't mind a trip or two to support a sponsor that folks speak highly of.

So, I could take one trip to Mathews and fill out everything there, get fingerprinted and whatnot?

Then I could go back to pick up the silencer after everything goes through? Or would they mail it to me? Is that safe nowadays? USPS and UPS both might wanna steal my stuff? And FedEx probably destroy it.

If I do it that way, and want to e-file, do I still need to establish my account and pin before I visit THST?

Two trips to a forum members place wouldn't be bad.
 
And I believe I may have been there once before with burnedoutgeek but I stayed in the truck because I was feeling a little under the weather. I think it was when he and RR and I took a sewing machine to gunbelt maybe.
 
thrillhill said:
@BigWaylon Tar Heel State Firearms is one of our sponsors I see. I don't mind a trip or two to support a sponsor that folks speak highly of.

So, I could take one trip to Mathews and fill out everything there, get fingerprinted and whatnot?

Then I could go back to pick up the silencer after everything goes through? Or would they mail it to me? Is that safe nowadays? USPS and UPS both might wanna steal my stuff? And FedEx probably destroy it.

If I do it that way, and want to e-file, do I still need to establish my account and pin before I visit THST?

Two trips to a forum members place wouldn't be bad.
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He used to mail silencers across the state, but I believe he stopped doing it. But like you mention, I’m not sure I’d trust most carriers with them these days (although every one I own has been shipped at least twice).

If you wanted to mail prints, I believe you could get away with just the trip to pick it up. But going there would make it pretty easy…two trips.

It’ll be easier if you have the eForms account set up before you arrive. Otherwise you’d have to create/register the account while you’re there. You could do that right now in a couple minutes on whatever device your posting from.
 
thrillhill said:
And I believe I may have been there once before with burnedoutgeek but I stayed in the truck because I was feeling a little under the weather. I think it was when he and RR and I took a sewing machine to gunbelt maybe.
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Possibly. He and Curt aren’t very far apart at all.
 
I've used Scott at THSF for three suppressors and he also engraved my Glock pistol as SBR. I have these items in my Button Pusher Family Trust.
 
What you need to do is make sure to plan one of the trips on the first Friday of any month. Then you can join us for lunch at @lowspeed’s place. 😎

(Curt usually attends those as well)
 
Is there anything I can mess up by filling out the eform thing ahead of time?

When I do that do I need to know how I am going to set things up entity wise? Still not sure on that front. Or can I go ahead and do the eform then talk to THSF when I get there to get advice?
 
Button Pusher said:
I've used Scott at THSF for three suppressors and he also engraved my Glock pistol as SBR. I have these items in my Button Pusher Family Trust.
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@thrillhill

They do the best engraving at the most competitive price you’ll find. If you ever thought about building an SBR, just go ahead and bring a lower and have it engraved on one of your trips. (No engraving necessary on an existing NFA item like the silencer you’ll buy)
 
BigWaylon said:
What you need to do is make sure to plan one of the trips on the first Friday of any month. Then you can join us for lunch at @lowspeed’s place. 😎

(Curt usually attends those as well)
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It is super hard for me to leave work on Monday or Friday. Almost impossible on Fridays.

BigWaylon said:
@thrillhill

They do the best engraving at the most competitive price you’ll find. If you ever thought about building an SBR, just go ahead and bring a lower and have it engraved on one of your trips. (No engraving necessary on an existing NFA item like the silencer you’ll buy)
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If I can pop my cherry on a .22 silencer, I'm gonna look at a short barreled shotgun (or 3) next.
 
thrillhill said:
Is there anything I can mess up by filling out the eform thing ahead of time?

When I do that do I need to know how I am going to set things up entity wise? Still not sure on that front. Or can I go ahead and do the eform then talk to THSF when I get there to get advice?
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When you register, you’ll fill out the info as an individual or an entity. So you’ll need to know that before you do it. But I’m pretty sure you can change it after you’ve created it.

There’s a lot of flexibility in doing it as an entity. Even if you’re creating a trust with you as the only trustee. You have the option to add other people later…which can’t be done if buying as an individual. For example (not that anybody would ever know on your property), if you buy it as an individual you can’t just let one of your kids take off and go hunting without you present. If you bought as an entity, you could add them down the road and they’d be free to roam free.

The only big difference in filing as an individual vs entity is the questions are split across two forms. You skip a lot of the Form 4 and fill out a different form to answer the questions you skipped. Scott can explain all that, or I’d be glad to if you wanted.
 
thrillhill said:
It is super hard for me to leave work on Monday or Friday. Almost impossible on Fridays.



If I can pop my cherry on a .22 silencer, I'm gonna look at a short barreled shotgun (or 3) next.
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Understood.

Same would go for SBS. If you wanted to shorten one you already owned, you could go ahead and engrave it now and see how it goes. No harm done if you ever do anything to it…just a shotgun with a little extra engraving hidden away.

With the SBS, assuming you’ll modify an existing one Instead of buying a factory SBS, you’d do that all by yourself with the eForms account you created. No dealer involved.
 
@BigWaylon I certainly appreciate the help. I think I'll call Scott tomorrow during business hours and see if I can set up an appointment.


Looks like the one you recommended (Dead Air Mask) is one that I would like. First shot is important to me, as well as how long I can go without cleaning and the ability to clean.

I don't have a rifle that I want to use it on yet, but I assume that it would be pretty easy to get a threaded 10-22 or maybe the Bergara and use it that way. I need semi-auto as movement seems to be more of a giveaway than degree of sound up to a point. And as much as I love the M&P 15-22 the "straight line" stock is quite an impediment when it comes to being able to precisely hit the squirrels from as close as 3-5 yards and then still have a usable point of impact out to 50 yards.

I'm not sure what direction I wanna go yet with the SBSs. I want a very short coach gun and an 870 of course. And maybe the same options in 20 gauge. May want 4 or so. LOL!
 
thrillhill said:
@BigWaylon I certainly appreciate the help. I think I'll call Scott tomorrow during business hours and see if I can set up an appointment.


Looks like the one you recommended (Dead Air Mask) is one that I would like. First shot is important to me, as well as how long I can go without cleaning and the ability to clean.

I don't have a rifle that I want to use it on yet, but I assume that it would be pretty easy to get a threaded 10-22 or maybe the Bergara and use it that way. I need semi-auto as movement seems to be more of a giveaway than degree of sound up to a point. And as much as I love the M&P 15-22 the "straight line" stock is quite an impediment when it comes to being able to precisely hit the squirrels from as close as 3-5 yards and then still have a usable point of impact out to 50 yards.

I'm not sure what direction I wanna go yet with the SBSs. I want a very short coach gun and an 870 of course. And maybe the same options in 20 gauge. May want 4 or so. LOL!
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I sent him a heads-up and a link to this thread. 😉

Every 22 I’ve ever seen is threaded 1/2-28, so you shouldn’t have a problem finding hosts that work.

Take an 870 (or two) with you to get engraved and use that for your first one. (Make sure you mention that when you discuss your visit, as Teri does the engraving). I have a 20ga 870 with a 12.5” barrel and a 12ga 870 police magnum with a 14”. They engraved both.

(I’ll talk this stuff until you cry uncle…so ask away) 🤓
 
If I have an 870 engraved, then SBS it, can I then, whenever I want (legally), throw a longer barrel on it and go hunting? Or once it is SBSed, I have to leave the shorter barrel on it at all times?
 
And if I go the 870 route, can I order a shorter barrel for the SBS, or do I have to have it made since I'm not buying the whole gun?
 
thrillhill said:
And I believe I may have been there once before with burnedoutgeek but I stayed in the truck because I was feeling a little under the weather. I think it was when he and RR and I took a sewing machine to gunbelt maybe.
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It was.
 
thrillhill said:
If I have an 870 engraved, then SBS it, can I then, whenever I want (legally), throw a longer barrel on it and go hunting? Or once it is SBSed, I have to leave the shorter barrel on it at all times?
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It’s only an SBS when configured as such. Otherwise it’s just a shotgun with some extra info engraved.

You could also choose to engrave the the shorter barrel instead. 😉

With an 18” (or more) barrel installed, you can hunt where SBSs aren’t allowed, cross state lines without permission, and even sell it without any NFA paperwork. Same goes if you had no barrel installed (except the hunt part would be a little rough).


thrillhill said:
And if I go the 870 route, can I order a shorter barrel for the SBS, or do I have to have it made since I'm not buying the whole gun?
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As long as you can find one, yes. The barrel by itself isn’t regulated and can be shipped to your house. It’s up to you to not use it in an illegal configuration. 😎
 
Here are my two 870s…really need something full-size in the pic to compare them to. The camo 20ga is on a youth model, and I think it’s only ~32” OAL.

index.php
 
RR said:
I'm paying attention because I'm about ready to do the same. Only I want .22 and .308 cans. Then we will talk SBS and SBRs.
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Then hopefully y’all can both report back how the process, however unconstitutional it is, is not the big hassle some would have you believe.

And realize the only real difference in buying a 6” metal tube and a full-auto M4/M16 is writing Silencer in box 4b instead of Machinegun. So when people say you can’t buy a machinegun, you can tell them you’ve been through the whole process and were approved. 😁. (Yes, there’s another difference…barrel length is N/A for the Silencer, but you get the point).
 
BigWaylon said:
I sent him a heads-up and a link to this thread. 😉

Every 22 I’ve ever seen is threaded 1/2-28, so you shouldn’t have a problem finding hosts that work.

Take an 870 (or two) with you to get engraved and use that for your first one. (Make sure you mention that when you discuss your visit, as Teri does the engraving). I have a 20ga 870 with a 12.5” barrel and a 12ga 870 police magnum with a 14”. They engraved both.

(I’ll talk this stuff until you cry uncle…so ask away) 🤓
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You sucked me in… lots of talk on suppressors but can you talk on SBR process and caveats? Can I SBR a 10/22 TD for example while in its stock config and leave it that way long as I want then get a cut down battery later? Can I keep stock barrel and swap for a 10” barrel back and forth as I like? What about a threaded charger. Could I buy a Charger pistol, then SBR it and then add a stock as desired? If I do that does it become a rifle and if so can I remove the stock and have it be a pistol again and conceal it under a CCW?
 
Mathieu18 said:
You sucked me in… lots of talk on suppressors but can you talk on SBR process and caveats?
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Yes
Mathieu18 said:
Can I SBR a 10/22 TD for example while in its stock config and leave it that way long as I want then get a cut down battery later?
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Yes. And you actually have 3 years from when you pay the tax to change your mind and get your $200 back assuming you never installed a shorter barrel.
Mathieu18 said:
Can I keep stock barrel and swap for a 10” barrel back and forth as I like?
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Yep. It’s only an NFA firearm when configured as such.
Mathieu18 said:
What about a threaded charger. Could I buy a Charger pistol, then SBR it and then add a stock as desired?
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Yep.
Mathieu18 said:
If I do that does it become a rifle and if so can I remove the stock and have it be a pistol again and conceal it under a CCW?
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You can swap from rifle with long barrel to pistol with short barrel and never have to file an NFA form. If you want to use the stock and short barrel, then you’d need to pay the man.
 
I just saw this a minute ago. It explains the e-form process some, at least as how it applies using Silencer Central.

 
I’ll trust you on that…I’m not watching 2 seconds of anything related to SC.
 
BigWaylon said:
Yes

Yes. And you actually have 3 years from when you pay the tax to change your mind and get your $200 back assuming you never installed a shorter barrel.

Yep. It’s only an NFA firearm when configured as such.

Yep.

You can swap from rifle with long barrel to pistol with short barrel and never have to file an NFA form. If you want to use the stock and short barrel, then you’d need to pay the man.
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Provided to you start with a Pistol as you educated me not too long ago. Don’t start with a 10/22 and try and make a charger less they check the S/N.

Also, I’d like to see where the ATF Brace rule making goes, but a SBR/Pistol legal conversion might be appealing. I don’t want to be a felon, even an unconstitutional one.
 
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Mathieu18 said:
Provided to you start with a Pistol as you educated me not too long ago. Don’t start with a 10/22 and try and make a charger less they check the S/N.

Also, I’d like to see where the ATF Brace rule making goes, but a SBR/Pistol legal conversion might be appealing. I don’t want to be a felon, even an unconstitutional one.
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Well…yes. But his question started with “can I buy a charger pistol”, so that’s the scenario the answer was pertaining to.
 
I know nobody in this thread actually asked about this directly, but since newbie is part of the thread title I’m going to add some really fundamental info for anybody that stumbles across the thread later. As some of you know, I worked the THSF table at gun shows for a brief period, and basic questions about tax stamps were some of the ones I answered over and over again.

One of the first ones was whether you bought a tax stamp first or a silencer first. (I’ll discuss silencers only at this point, but all of this is applicable for any of the six categories, as well as for both Form 1 and Form 4 submissions). While you can actually pay for a stamp without paying for a silencer, you won’t get the stamp that way. Several dealer websites will let you go online right now and buy nothing other than a $200 stamp.

What you need to realize is that the NFA (National Firearms Act of 1934) is really nothing more than tax code. The stamp is the receipt for a tax paid, also called an excise/revenue stamp. That’s the reason you’ll here some people argue that they won’t show an approved form to anybody other than the ATF, because it’s a personal tax form and no range employee/etc has any right to see that info.

And in case you want to ask, no…you can’t deduct tax stamps paid when you file your taxes each year. IRS lists taxes that are deductible and then the code section goes on to note that “any tax (not described in the first sentence of this subsection) which is paid or accrued by the taxpayer in connection with an acquisition or disposition of property shall be treated as part of the cost of the acquired property.” and then adds in a different place that “Some taxes and fees you cannot deduct on Schedule A include federal income taxes, Social Security taxes, transfer taxes (or stamp taxes)”

To go back to the fact that it’s really just tax code, all NFA items are considered “weapons of mass death and destruction” in North Carolina, and are illegal with a few exceptions. The law starts with:

§ 14-288.8. Manufacture, assembly, possession, storage, transportation, sale, purchase, delivery, or acquisition of weapon of mass death and destruction; exceptions.

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to manufacture, assemble, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any weapon of mass death and destruction.

And then you get down to this exception in the list:

(5) Persons who lawfully possess or own a weapon as defined in subsection (c) of this section in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871. Nothing in this subdivision shall limit the discretion of the sheriff in executing the paperwork required by the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for such person to obtain the weapon.

Wanna guess what the code referenced is? It’s Internal Revenue Code and includes this part:

(a)Rate
There shall be levied, collected, and paid on firearms transferred a tax at the rate of $200 for each firearm transferred, except, the transfer tax on any firearm classified as any other weaponunder section 5845(e) shall be at the rate of $5 for each suchfirearm transferred.
(b)By whom paid
The tax imposed by subsection (a) of this section shall be paid by the transferor.
(c)Payment
The tax imposed by subsection (a) of this section shall be payable by the appropriate stamps prescribed for payment by the Secretary.

So…back to the what comes first, the stamp or the silencer question. While you technically can buy either one first, they’re usually paid for simultaneously. That’s because (unlike what a lot of people at the gun shows think), you don’t acquire a stamp and then use that to go buy a silencer. The serial number of the silencer you’re buying goes on the Form 4. So, not only do you have to pick out a silencer before before submitting, you have to pick out a particular silencer (as opposed to just naming a brand & model). Once the whole background check is complete and the form is processed/approved, a stamp is attached to the form as proof you paid the tax. On an eForm, it’s simply a digital stamp/watermark on the form. With a paper form, it’s an actual stamp stuck onto the form.

To note, if your forms are ever lost, you can request a certified copy. You won’t get another stamp, as you’re not paying the tax again. Instead, the form will have a “certified copy” stamp on it similar to a notary stamp. I have one of those around here if anybody actually wants to see it. (I have a scanned copy of an approved form, but can’t find the original). This includes if your form is lost between the ATF mailroom and your dealer. So you maybe never actually see your stamp if that happens, and all you’d have is the certified copy.

Maybe somebody read that and learned something…or maybe somebody will down the road. 😎
 
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