Help me pick my first MG

JTM35A2

JTM35A2

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I am ready to take the plunge. The budget is under 13k, preferably closer to 10k. I have 3 guns on my radar. Please offer advice on your experience with these, or maybe something else I have overlooked.
BRP STG, I like this one because it’s brand new manufactured and has readily available product support from the builder.
Uzi , great design, cheap mags, and well it’s an uzi!
Mac10/11, all the new uppers and various ways it can be setup have me really curious about these.
 
Mac 10's and 11's are very difficult to shoot with any type of accuracy (unless you modify them extensively). The cyclic rate on a Mac 11 is such that it's just about impossible to squeeze short bursts. Of the ones that you listed, the STG U9 Slow Fire (it replaced the BRP STG) would be my first choice due to accuracy and controllability.

Personally I'd opt for a Swedish K over an Uzi. I'd stay away from the MK76, the Sten's and the Sterling's, due to accuracy and reliability issues.

A West Hurley Thompson may be within your budget, and that is another good option to consider. Much heavier than the Swedish K, but it's a very high quality gun.
 
Scsmith42 said:
Mac 10's and 11's are very difficult to shoot with any type of accuracy (unless you modify them extensively). The cyclic rate on a Mac 11 is such that it's just about impossible to squeeze short bursts. Of the ones that you listed, the STG U9 Slow Fire (it replaced the BRP STG) would be my first choice due to accuracy and controllability.

Personally I'd opt for a Swedish K over an Uzi. I'd stay away from the MK76, the Sten's and the Sterling's, due to accuracy and reliability issues.

A West Hurley Thompson may be within your budget, and that is another good option to consider. Much heavier than the Swedish K, but it's a very high quality gun.
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Do you happen to have any of these?
 
JTM35A2 said:
Do you happen to have any of these?
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I have shot all of them (except the STG) but of my recommended list the closest that I own is a 1928A1 Thompson. Mine is an original WWII Savage, the West Hurley were 1960 - 1986 new manufacturer 1928A1's.

In terms of controllability, the STG U9 might not be too far off from my MP5SD considering cyclic rate and overall form factor, but it's rifle length instead of SMG length.
 
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Scsmith42 said:
I have shot all of them but of my recommended list the closest that I own is a 1928A1 Thompson. Mine is an original WWII Savage, the West Hurley were 1960 - 1986 new manufacturer 1928A1's.

In terms of controllability, the STG U9 might not be too far off from my MP5SD considering cyclic rate and overall form factor, but it's rifle length instead of SMG length.
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How is the weight of the stg compared to the Thompson?
 
I wouldn’t hold modifying an M11 against it, that’s kind of the point for buying one. With aftermarket uppers and bolts it takes a crude brick bullet hose and makes it accurate/controllable/modern/etc.

Yes, I’d rather have an MP5, but it’s apples and oranges given their price difference.
 
MichaelHK said:
I wouldn’t hold modifying an M11 against it, that’s kind of the point for buying one. With aftermarket uppers and bolts it takes a crude brick bullet hose and makes it accurate/controllable/modern/etc.

Yes, I’d rather have an MP5, but it’s apples and oranges given their price difference.
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I concur. Back in the late 90's I was shooting competition's in Wisconsin. One of the competitors was continually modifying his M11 by installing longer barrel's, slowing the cyclic rate down, better stock's, etc. Over the course of 2 years he really turned it into a reliable, competitive platform that was accurate and controllable.

The first time that he competed, he had to swap mag's every three pulls of the trigger because the rate was so fast, but after two years of continuous mods he got it slowed down to the point where he could shoot controllable 2-3 round bursts on a regular basis.

$ for $ though, a STG U9 might be a nicer end product than a modified M11
 
MichaelHK said:
I wouldn’t hold modifying an M11 against it, that’s kind of the point for buying one. With aftermarket uppers and bolts it takes a crude brick bullet hose and makes it accurate/controllable/modern/etc.

Yes, I’d rather have an MP5, but it’s apples and oranges given their price difference.
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same here but I believe they're north of 50k now :|
 
ronn47 said:
@Scsmith42 Where would a M3/M3A1 fall in your list?
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Grease gun?
I am really liking the modular platform idea. I went into this with the stg being at the top of my list. But seeing rifle caliber and rimfire uppers for the mac have me very interested. I would love to find a member that has a Mac with a lage upper of some flavor to try out.
 
The Lage uppers are pretty sweet. I have tried the 9mm and .22 and they were fun.
In fact my 70+ year old mom shot the .22 full auto. lol.

Although have never owned one. They did change my perception of Macs considerably though.
 
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ronn47 said:
@Scsmith42 Where would a M3/M3A1 fall in your list?
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Above Sterling / Sten, maybe equal to the Swedish K. The M3 is really a close in weapon, like the Sten and Sterlings, the MAC's and even the Uzi and the MP5K.

Personally I prefer SMG's that are not only good for close in, but also 100 yard shooting. The MP5 family, Thompson family guns, MP38's and 40's, Colt DEA 9's, FN P90's are all good 100 yard SMG's too. M4 CQB versions are a joy to shoot - especially the short barrel suppressed versions. On all of these guns the form factor is not that much larger than some of the smaller guns, but their accuracy is much better. If you're shooting competitively, with a more accurate gun the onus is on the shooters skill, not the weapons inherent limitations. So having a gun that you know that you will hit a 4" steel plate at 50 yards gives you both confidence and a competitive edge.

For just "spray and pray" fun times, any of the guns can be and are a blast to shoot. But after a while you might tire of that and want something with a little more accuracy.

I once shot an American 180. Talk about a bullet hose! That thing was a hoot. As I recall it had a 177 round drum on top - similar to a Vickers. .22's are not that great in knocking down heavy steel plates, but the American 180 puts so many of them on target (1,500 rounds per minute with the .22 short magnum version and 1,200 with the standard .22lr) that it's like pushing the plate over by hand.

YMMV.
 
I own M10's (1) and M11's. (2). Two of them have Lage modifications and one has a tungsten bolt. I find the slow bolt M11 to be quite accurate, controllable and huge fun to shoot. I also have a Lage 22 conversion for the M11 and it works really well with selected 22 ammunition (It loves MiniMags).

I have but have not used the .223 upper for the M11. I look forward to using it. I have the M10/9 lage upper for the 45.

I know of no other SMG that's so flexible and with more configurations and accessories . Did I mention they're big fun?

Wish I had the 380 version too, but the prices climbed before I was able to purchase the last in the set .

I am never sorry I spent the money I have on these.
 
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JTM35A2 said:
. I would love to find a member that has a Mac with a lage upper of some flavor to try out.
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Do you have any land to shoot on? If so, we might be able to work something out. PM me?
 
I'm really partial to the "coffee freak" (tungsten) slow fire bolt and the "grey ghost" upper on the 11. I love shooting this thing. For me, it's the best investment in M** accessories.
 
Ive shot and owned a lot if not most of these. If it were my money I'd go with a MP40 tube gun. It might be a little more than a Mac 10 but its cool ass hell and wont lose value. No machine gun will .
 
wired said:
Ive shot and owned a lot if not most of these. If it were my money I'd go with a MP40 tube gun. It might be a little more than a Mac 10 but its cool ass hell and wont lose value. No machine gun will .
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That’s one of my concerns about the stg. They are like $12.5k new, and I found one that is sitting at 10k.
 
Im just going to say it. The Stemple Takedown Gun is ugly as sin.

There . I said it.
 
I think you will find that the price of most Uzis has creeped up over you $13k or less target zone. You might be able to get a registered bolt gun for around that price, but even that isn't a sure thing.

I have four SMGs:

-M10/45 with Uzi Mag conversion
-M10/45 presently at Practical Solutions for an Uzi Mag conversion
-M11A1 .380
-STEN Mk. II

If I was going to buy a new gun today (or if I can scrape together cash for another) I would probably get a Stemple. I have grease gun mags left over from before my M10/45s used Uzi mags and I enjoy shooting .45 ACP in SMGs, so I would probably get the U45 version of the Stemple or the version that comes with both .45 and 9mm parts. I'm half considering selling one of my M10s now that eform 4s are a thing and taking the plunge on the Stemple.

That said, it depends on what exactly you are looking to do. The 5.56mm uppers for the M10 and M11A1 were recently approved by the NFA branch so now one can reasonably expect to be able to convert any of the MACs into something of a light machine gun. I'm on the waiting list for both the M10 and M11A1 versions. I have Lage uppers for both kinds of MACs I have already and they turn the bullet hose stock MACs into quite good SMGs. The 30 round a second .380 is fun in its stock configuration for a mag dump or two on each range trip.

I absolutely suggest going with Uzi mags if you get an M10, either find one already converted or send it to Sam for the conversion. Uzi mags are cheap and reliable. My M10 runs like a top in either 9mm or 45 with Uzi mags and the grip is a lot more comfortable.

The M11A1 is very small, like about the size of a Glock 17 in factory configuration, and is a great host for Lage uppers. It would also be a good choice.

The STEN is a huge POS that is also a huge amount of fun. I do not regret buying it at all and it really is my favorite gun to shoot despite having bad ergonomics and no way to mount optics. Mine has been very reliable and it definitely has character.

The M3/M3A1 guns are really cool historic guns. They are, however, not cheap. Expect to pay $30k for a M3/M3A1. You would think they would be everywhere, but they were still in service when the registry closed so supplies of transferrable guns are limited. I would love to have one, but the Stemple U45 is probably the closest analog for anything like a reasonable price.
 
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"I absolutely suggest going with Uzi mags if you get an M10, either find one already converted or send it to Sam for the conversion."

Is it just the availability of Uzi mags that led you to send yours to Sam? I bought a stack of GG Mags when I got my M10 yrs ago, and have been happy so far with the performance (Mine is a Joisey Arms version). I agree that Sam is the guy to do the work. I've got the "Grey Ghost" upper that he made and he really does some great stuff.

There's a M11A1 with suppressor at Clayton Guns that's a transferrable but it's 10 large $
 
JohnFreeman said:
"I absolutely suggest going with Uzi mags if you get an M10, either find one already converted or send it to Sam for the conversion."

Is it just the availability of Uzi mags that led you to send yours to Sam? I bought a stack of GG Mags when I got my M10 yrs ago, and have been happy so far with the performance (Mine is a Joisey Arms version). I agree that Sam is the guy to do the work. I've got the "Grey Ghost" upper that he made and he really does some great stuff.

There's a M11A1 with suppressor at Clayton Guns that's a transferrable but it's 10 large $
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If one's plan is to shoot .45 ACP in the M10 then the grease gun mags are fine. I didn't have any complaints with the magazines. However, there is not a good solution for 9mm out of a .45 M10 other than the MAX-10/31 upper. That thing is huge, I had one, it was fun, but it just made the gun too big, so I sold it. Additionally, the M10/45 grip is not even remotely comfortable IMO. The Uzi grip is a lot better. Factory Uzi .45 mags are expensive and hard to get, but I have had good success with the ProMag 22 round Uzi .45 mags (surprisingly enough). I mostly shoot 9mm in my M10s anyway, so the Uzi conversion was the way to go there. I figure people these days are mostly interested in shooting 9mm. Brand new Uzi mags can often be had from IWI for under $15.00.

FWIW I paid $7500 for my M11A1 in November 2020 and I got it from Reuben who isn't known for having the lowest prices. Amazing the difference a year and an available 5.56mm upper make.
 
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Yeah, Reuben isn't cheap but he's got a solid reputation as being fair and accurate.

Thanks for the info on the M10 conversion. I've seen a lot of folks having that done by Sam, all with good reports. Since I have the 11 for 9, I shoot 45's out of the 10 and with the big two stage Sionics can, it's a lot of fun.

To think that these things (registered frames) sold at the bankruptcy auction for $10, back in the day.... sigh..... I think Rob is a little high with the 10K asking price, but not by much I guess (I also think that he keeps it as an attention grabber just inside the door in the display case.

That little 380 is super tiny (and cool looking with the original can). You did well to complete the set! :)
 
JohnFreeman said:
Yeah, Reuben isn't cheap but he's got a solid reputation as being fair and accurate.

Thanks for the info on the M10 conversion. I've seen a lot of folks having that done by Sam, all with good reports. Since I have the 11 for 9, I shoot 45's out of the 10 and with the big two stage Sionics can, it's a lot of fun.

To think that these things (registered frames) sold at the bankruptcy auction for $10, back in the day.... sigh..... I think Rob is a little high with the 10K asking price, but not by much I guess (I also think that he keeps it as an attention grabber just inside the door in the display case.

That little 380 is super tiny (and cool looking with the original can). You did well to complete the set! :)
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Reuben has one or two M11A1s on his site right now in the low $9k range. Since he ships for free and last I know didn't charge tax outside Florida that isn't the worst deal. I really like my M11A1 and it is stupid fun (for a very short time) with the Baby Ghost upper in .380. With the MAX-31K upper it is like a real, modern SMG (other than still being an open bolt). If I had to pick one MAC for pure fun factor it would probably be the M11A1. However, I think the M11/Nine and M10 are still more versatile overall and more robust.
 
If all you want to do is shoot fast dont bother with a MG. The FRT does it for a small fraction of the price.

 
Scsmith42 said:
Mac 10's and 11's are very difficult to shoot with any type of accuracy (unless you modify them extensively). The cyclic rate on a Mac 11 is such that it's just about impossible to squeeze short bursts. Of the ones that you listed, the STG U9 Slow Fire (it replaced the BRP STG) would be my first choice due to accuracy and controllability.

Personally I'd opt for a Swedish K over an Uzi. I'd stay away from the MK76, the Sten's and the Sterling's, due to accuracy and reliability issues.

A West Hurley Thompson may be within your budget, and that is another good option to consider. Much heavier than the Swedish K, but it's a very high quality gun.
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M10's and M11's are plenty accurate ... provided you slow the RoF. Modification to this requires nothing more than a bolt change (to the CF-W bolt). The SMG's breakdown to make this swap entails:
1) Remove rear stock (push of a button and then pull stock off) and one pin
2) Remove upper from lower
3) Remove OEM bolt
4) Insert CF-W bolt
5) Place upper back on lower
6) Re-insert pin and replace rear stock.

I wouldn't call that 'modify[ing] them estensively'...

Here's what my first time with the CF-W bolt on an otherwise stock M11/9 looked like ... against four targets (two of which are off camera). The most difficulty I had was sighting over the reciprocating cocking knob ... and even then, the ringing of steel gives you some idea of how controllable and accurate this was, especially given I'd never shot it like this, before...


MichaelHK said:
I wouldn’t hold modifying an M11 against it, that’s kind of the point for buying one. With aftermarket uppers and bolts it takes a crude brick bullet hose and makes it accurate/controllable/modern/etc.
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Yes!


JohnFreeman said:
I own M10's (1) and M11's. (2). Two of them have Lage modifications and one has a tungsten bolt. I find the slow bolt M11 to be quite accurate, controllable and huge fun to shoot. I also have a Lage 22 conversion for the M11 and it works really well with selected 22 ammunition (It loves MiniMags).

I have but have not used the .223 upper for the M11. I look forward to using it. I have the M10/9 lage upper for the 45.

I know of no other SMG that's so flexible and with more configurations and accessories . Did I mention they're big fun?

Wish I had the 380 version too, but the prices climbed before I was able to purchase the last in the set .

I am never sorry I spent the money I have on these.
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Here's a MAX 11/15 upper (aka 5.56 NATO upper) with internal recoil mechanism on my M11/9 using a 20 round mag. Keep in mind it was a test fire, so I have no sights on that upper. Also note that I had already done several mag dumps, so the upper was HOT ... and with no gloves or broom handle I ended up supporting it by the mag and mag well. Thus, I've got poor support up front ... which is why I'm sort of all over the place ... while trying to get a feel for how long to squeeze for each burst. (By the end of the mag I figured out I needed to squeeze longer than I was when using the CF-W bolt on the OEM upper ... and go for 5 round bursts.)



Like you, I'm very pleased with the money I've spent (on M11/9, 2 Lage uppers, CF-W bolt, and some mods). Richard Lage changed the game with these SMG's!


JohnFreeman said:
Yeah, Reuben isn't cheap but he's got a solid reputation as being fair and accurate.

Thanks for the info on the M10 conversion. I've seen a lot of folks having that done by Sam, all with good reports. Since I have the 11 for 9, I shoot 45's out of the 10 and with the big two stage Sionics can, it's a lot of fun.

To think that these things (registered frames) sold at the bankruptcy auction for $10, back in the day.... sigh..... I think Rob is a little high with the 10K asking price, but not by much I guess (I also think that he keeps it as an attention grabber just inside the door in the display case.

That little 380 is super tiny (and cool looking with the original can). You did well to complete the set! :)
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Like @Landric (whose toy list made me jealous), I bought from Reuben Mendiola (aka dealernfa.com for the benefit of @JTM35A2). It was brand new in original (crappy cardboard with styrofoam) box and had never been fired. I think it was $8.4k ... plus, of course, the fees associated with my LGS handling the xfer into state and stashing it in a safe for me (they charged 5%) until it was out of ATF jail. I could have paid $1k less for a M11/9 through another vendor at the time, but Reuben's reputation is for selling really nice gear ... and the last thing I wanted was a shot-out OEM upper, so I paid to play.

NOTE:
Videos included to give @JTM35A2 some insight into the M11/9 and its flexibility. Lage of course has more Max11-related videos on Youtube that may be worth the watch. The key thing to remember with the Lage kit is that at $13k one can buy the SMG, some mags, the CF-W bolt (not sold by Lage), and a Lage SMG upper ... and then when funds permit, one can add the 5.56 NATO upper. When done, all in for $15-16k, one has a 9mm SMG that can be swapped to a 5.56 NATO MG . (That puts one at ~half the price of a M16 ... with more flexibility!)
 
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First time I fired my M10/45 I did the old hold it out from like a gangsta thing and couldnt hit a tim can from 10 feet away. This was before you could buy stock adapters ( paid $800 for the gun ) . Machined a AR stock adapter and learned how to shoot full auto. Plant it in the pocket of the shoulder and LEAN into it. Go tto the point I could put every shot into a 3 inch group at 20 yards full auto. Practice and technique.
 
I looked at the STG line and came close to buying one but other guns fell into my lap and I never bought one. That said Brian Poling (BRP) seems to be a knowledgable standup guy and I was impressed after talking with him at Knob Creek a couple decades ago.

Personally doing caliber conversions at the range gets old. I did that for years with my RR SP1 swapping between 9mm, 22LR, 7.62X39 and 5.56 uppers, it's a minor hassle keeping track of mag adapters & magazines. Dealing with calibers changes on HK guns is even more daunting with various grip frames, selectors, ejectors, stocks and the actual receivers themselves.

What I'm trying to say is that while multi-cal capability is a plus for whatever gun you purchase it may get tiresome down the road, yeah I know, first world problems.

One thing for sure is to spend some time shooting whatever platform you are considering. In my case I don't care for the FS Uzi but the Mini Uzi is a stone cold riot. My FFL/SOT buddy loves the M60 while I prefer his M249. So bottom line is nothing beats actual trigger time when it comes to making a decision on whether you like a particular weapon and it's various configurations. Good luck with your quest!
 
I don't generally "switch at the range" when I shoot my guns that can fire different calibers. Usually, I set the gun up in whatever configuration I want to shoot for the day and shoot it that way. There are some exceptions, like if the only change is pushing out a pin and swapping an upper. My M11A1 has two uppers I regularly use: The Baby Ghost in .380 and the Lage MAX31K 9mm. The Baby Ghost has an optic high enough that I can use it with the same stock I use with the 31k (the iron sights are generally too low on MACs to use with stocks that don't have any sort of drop). If I had to swap out stocks I wouldn't do it at the range.

My M10 that is presently at PS is going to come back with Fat Ghost uppers in both 9mm and .45 ACP. I had been using a Lage MAX-10 upper on it before I sent it off. When it comes back it will have two very different configurations, one with a Lage MAX-10/9 upper and Lage folding stock, the other with the Fat Ghost uppers and a PS Uzi folding stock. I will not be swapping between the two at the range.

The STEN is easy, load mags, hose down targets, grin. Nothing to change out at all.
 
The small vertical foregrip that the tiny pic under rail allows on the grey ghost upper is really a nice option too.
 
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