Help me with a scope purchase

clay_fv

clay_fv

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With all that's going on in the world, I've decided to go ahead and buy a good scope while the $ is still worth half of something. I'm very mixed on what I want to buy. It will eventually end up on top of my "precision" AR10. It might see use on some others, but that's the eventual goal. I want to be capable of shooting 1000yards, though who knows if I ever get the chance. My budget is somewhere around 2k. That doesn't mean I want to spend that...

I'm strongly considering just going with a Vortex Viper Gen II 5-25. However, part of me says go ahead and get the Razor HD Gen II 4.5x27. Buy once cry once. I'm also considering Leupold 5HD scopes. What are other good or better scopes in this range? I've always been a vortex lover as I have several, just none at the level of the razor. If anyone has good suggestions, I'd also love good sale links! Either way, I'd love to hear some good opinions.
 
The glass on the Leupold Mark 5HD is incredible.
The Viper Gen II is very good, but not great.
Can't speak on the Razor.

Nightforce makes great optics, and have a reputation for being very tough.
 
gr8fuldoug said:
Have you considered the Burris XTR III?
Click to expand...
I had a XTR II that had a lot of great features, but the clarity of the glass let me down. The quality of the glass was no better than my Leupold VX2, which was a much cheaper scope. Burris keeps coming out with new products trying to find the one that takes off for them. I hope the XTR3 has better glass than the XTR2. Everything else about the Burris was very good though.
 
I have never owned Burris, but I currently have Nightforce ATACR. In the past have owned the NXS series Nightforce as well. I used to hunt with the NF ATACR and Vortex Gen 2 5-25. Light transmission is about even with the NF. Clarity is also pretty close. Many competition shooters are running the Vortex. Never practiced a lot of return to zero on the Vortex, so I can't speak to the capabilities there. I like them both, they both worked well for me. Vortex is a spot cheaper and their warranty department is excellent. Never used the warranty on the NF (and that my friend tells the tale). Buy the best glass you can get for the money you have. You will not regret it.
 
gr8fuldoug said:
Have you considered the Burris XTR III?
Click to expand...
The Illuminated XTRIII is going to be a sweet value when it becomes available.

The current model has a reticle that is darn near invisible until get to to ~8x, which greatly reduces the appeal of the 3.3x low end magnification.

I’ve been testing the US Optics 2.5-20x, and it is impressive for the cost. That mag range makes it good for fast and close and will still get you out to 1K+, depending on caliber. The glass is not NF quality, but it punches above its price point.
 
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@Tim Got any good links for the US Optics?

NF is just a damn expensive option that's not quite in my price range. I know it's top tier, but I get the feeling it's top tier and they know it's top tier kinda prices.

If the Viper PST is a solid choice for the money, I'll stick with it. But, is the 5HD a lot better? I've heard lots of good things about the Razor HD, but I have heard bad things too. It's hard to tell which people are paid to say which.
 
clay_fv said:
@Tim Got any good links for the US Optics?
Click to expand...
This is the one I’m evaluating. With known .mil adjustments for ammo/rifle I’ve shot for years, I was able to dial and make first shot hits at 3, 4, 5, 650 and 700yds. Then dial back to zero reliably.

There are couple things I’m not crazy about - namely the zero stop and thick bell - but I think it’s a heck of a value. And, it’s an NC company!

TS-20X | US Optics

www.usoptics.com www.usoptics.com
 
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Thanks Tim. I found their website but didn't know if they had dealers that had better prices. Then I saw they were basically built to order.

I'm heavily leaning to the 5HD right now.
 
Due to the use of the semi-auto I would focus on the eye box first, power range second, If I was you this is my breakdown.

* FFP or fixed power
* 18x max for a semi auto
* 3x, 4x power band optics (3-12, 4-16, 5.5-20)
* Add a small RDS to your optic plan

I say all of this because scoping a semi-auto is not the same as scoping a manual operated rifle. The recoil is 3x as violent then a manual operated rifle, due to a higher magnification range, Follow up shots have nothing to do with the operation of the action, the speed of a follow up shot is directly related to the scale of the field of view (FOV). The FOV is always trimmed to make the reticle subtend visually at the maximum power. IE a 12x setting on a 5x25 is a wider ban than 12x on a 4x16. The lower the top end, the more useful the whole range is with a FFP optic. As fa as a SFP goes, its useless anyhow so it does not relate. BUT, this is why S&B, and Hensoldt only offer a SFP in the highest power optics.

The key is the FOV, since a FFP is needed, the sustentions are 1000% directly related to the FOV, since this is true, the statement that @Tim made about the Burris should make since. This is true about any optic, with a thin reticle. We see Primary Arms leading the way in reticle design in the LPVO category to solve this issue. .

If It was my rifle, I would do this optic personally.

https://www.usoptics.com/product/fdn-1fx10/ With the H425

I know, its fixed 10x, oh my, but for the rifle you want to build, you will never be out matched with a fixed 10x. Oh, and still add a cheap read dot on the side mount for quick target ID and under 15yd shots
 
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Tim said:
The Illuminated XTRIII is going to be a sweet value when it becomes available.

The current model has a reticle that is darn near invisible until get to to ~8x, which greatly reduces the appeal of the 3.3x low end magnification.
Click to expand...

Replying to myself...

That 'thin' reticle on the low end - which is practically unusable in the current model - is why the Illuminated version is going to kick this scope up to the 'must have' tier. Add a bit of color to the reticle so you can actually see it...and this is the perfect scope for engagements from 50-1,500 yards.

The illuminated version is due to hit the market in the next few weeks at an incredible price point.

There's a lengthy thread on it over on snipershide.com with some trusted folks having done long term T&E reviews
 
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JBoyette said:
Due to the use of the semi-auto I would focus on the eye box first, power range second, If I was you this is my breakdown.

* FFP or fixed power
* 18x max for a semi auto
* 3x, 4x power band optics (3-12, 4-16, 5.5-20)
* Add a small RDS to your optic plan

I say all of this because scoping a semi-auto is not the same as scoping a manual operated rifle. The recoil is 3x as violent then a manual operated rifle, due to a higher magnification range, Follow up shots have nothing to do with the operation of the action, the speed of a follow up shot is directly related to the scale of the field of view (FOV). The FOV is always trimmed to make the reticle subtend visually at the maximum power. IE a 12x setting on a 5x25 is a wider ban than 12x on a 4x16. The lower the top end, the more useful the whole range is with a FFP optic. As fa as a SFP goes, its useless anyhow so it does not relate. BUT, this is why S&B, and Hensoldt only offer a SFP in the highest power optics.

The key is the FOV, since a FFP is needed, the sustentions are 1000% directly related to the FOV, since this is true, the statement that @Tim made about the Burris should make since. This is true about any optic, with a thin reticle. We see Primary Arms leading the way in reticle design in the LPVO category to solve this issue. .

If It was my rifle, I would do this optic personally.

https://www.usoptics.com/product/fdn-1fx10/ With the H425

I know, its fixed 10x, oh my, but for the rifle you want to build, you will never be out matches with a fixed 10x. Oh, and still add a cheap read dot on the side mount for quick target ID and under 15yd shots
Click to expand...
Thanks for this info. I was really torn between the 5HD 5-25x56, or the 5HD 3.6-18x44 with the m5c3 reticle. This response is pushing me more towards the 3.6-18. Using the leupold mark 4 rings, which height would I use with each? I'm guessing medium for the 44 and extra high for the 56?
 
clay_fv said:
Thanks for this info. I was really torn between the 5HD 5-25x56, or the 5HD 3.6-18x44 with the m5c3 reticle. This response is pushing me more towards the 3.6-18. Using the leupold mark 4 rings, which height would I use with each? I'm guessing medium for the 44 and extra high for the 56?
Click to expand...
That is a really 'busy' reticle. Have you looked through one?
 
Tim said:
That is a really 'busy' reticle. Have you looked through one?
Click to expand...
I've looked at the pictures of them. I like the easy to find christmas tree style for holdovers and such, but this is also me guessing what I'd like to use at long range. The m1c3 is certainly cheaper.
 
clay_fv said:
Thanks for this info. I was really torn between the 5HD 5-25x56, or the 5HD 3.6-18x44 with the m5c3 reticle. This response is pushing me more towards the 3.6-18. Using the leupold mark 4 rings, which height would I use with each? I'm guessing medium for the 44 and extra high for the 56?
Click to expand...

Ok, here is my $0.02 on this.

A Grid reticle is for holding bullet drop. Not dialing bullet drop. This is why I posted the H425 reticle with the USO. Holding is faster in all accounts and allows one to truly maximize the value of the semi-auto

Now, one must do the relationship of FOV to stadia. As a example, 5HD 3.6-18x44 FOV is 28.3 - 5.8 ft. Lets do some math half power would be 10.8x the FOV would be 17.05 ft Lets round that to 17 feet.

17 feet is 204 inches
1 MIL at 100 yards = 3.6"
204/3.6= 56 mils
So the field of view at 10.8x is 56 mils.

This will hold true for all distances because we converted a liner unit of measure to a angular units of measure. You can do the low end and high end of the optic if you want too.

1645800173025.png

So the width of this reticle is 20 MIL The depth of the image is in all practical use is 10MILs Height is 5 MIL

Where am I going with this?

Well at 10.8x the FOV is 56 mils. The width is 20 MILs that means you have 18MILS of FOV to the left and right of the reticle showing you the terrain, or about 1/3rd of the field of view is the reticle. THIS IS A GOOD THING!

Because at 1/2 power and up, the reticle becomes easier to view as the FOV reduces and the perception of the reticle is it "grows" that's an optical illusion, the reticle subtends the same amount of FOV, its just as the power goes up, the FOV goes down.....

Now, design of a reticle is a different topic, for this line of optics I like the Tremor 3 personally.
 
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Magnification or zoom is somewhat dependent on how old your eyes are. I'm in my 60's with astigmatism. At a bare minimum I need 24X to get to 1000yds. 32 more better. I shoot a 10-50x60 in 100 to 300yds benchrest competition also in 600yd BR competition. Sightron makes very good scopes for the money. They can put you in a 6-24, 8-32 or 10-50 for less than $1000.
 
jimmyjames8 said:
Magnification or zoom is somewhat dependent on how old your eyes are. I'm in my 60's with astigmatism. At a bare minimum I need 24X to get to 1000yds. 32 more better. I shoot a 10-50x60 in 100 to 300yds benchrest competition also in 600yd BR competition. Sightron makes very good scopes for the money. They can put you in a 6-24, 8-32 or 10-50 for less than $1000.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree, to a point.

The game of benchrest uses optics differently then hunting or even PRS style matches. a FOV is only useful for bullet trace, at best.

So I would only warn anyone reading this, that different rifle sports have their own unique requirements, my F-Class setup is my tactical setup, because I own 1 rifle now. LOL

But as a OP stated, a semi-auto precision rifle is not the same cup of goodness as a manually operated rifle and the end use need could be very different. Could one take a semi-auto to a benchrest match? sure and good luck ;)
 
I pulled the trigger on the Leupold 5HD 3.6-18. My desires for the gun/scope are to have a good platform for defense (long range) and even hunting. I don't do competitions. Maybe someday, but that's just not my overall desire. It'll be on a 20" 308 AR. I liked that it was so lightweight, but apparently has some great scores for its clarity. I'm currently 45 and still don't use any corrective lenses. I can most definitely tell a difference over the past 10 years though! However, I find my night sight is what's changed the most. When the sun gets low or it's a dark day, I can really tell what I could used to see clearly isn't clear anymore. Hopefully this will be a solid 1000y scope, but pull the duty for multiple rolls.

So the next question, does anyone have any solid recommendations I should use for torque values on the rings? I don't know if the manual will give me specs or not.
 
clay_fv said:
I pulled the trigger on the Leupold 5HD 3.6-18. My desires for the gun/scope are to have a good platform for defense (long range) and even hunting. I don't do competitions. Maybe someday, but that's just not my overall desire. It'll be on a 20" 308 AR. I liked that it was so lightweight, but apparently has some great scores for its clarity. I'm currently 45 and still don't use any corrective lenses. I can most definitely tell a difference over the past 10 years though! However, I find my night sight is what's changed the most. When the sun gets low or it's a dark day, I can really tell what I could used to see clearly isn't clear anymore. Hopefully this will be a solid 1000y scope, but pull the duty for multiple rolls.

So the next question, does anyone have any solid recommendations I should use for torque values on the rings? I don't know if the manual will give me specs or not.
Click to expand...
No idea what your question is.

Please reframe your question
 
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clay_fv said:
So the next question, does anyone have any solid recommendations I should use for torque values on the rings? I don't know if the manual will give me specs or not.
Click to expand...
The last couple scopes I bought had the specs…not the rings. Even had a little paper ring around the scope as a reminder.
 
Like the S&B PM II's clear, bright, clean images, great light gathering, but on AR10
don't know works great on the TRG-42 338 LM. Probably would go a Vortex, NF, or
Leupold on it Can't speak for the higher mag Vortex Glass, Most all my other Rifles
have Leupold glass. The LR stuff have S&B glass, next up might be this one
2022-04-10_185543.jpg
 
Nice.. setup. got hooked on S&B's when I first was "allowed" to shoot my friends on a 700
action / Bartlein .308

bout the only "odd balls" are a ole Leatherwood "ART" on the Devine M1A, a Zeiss
on the HK-91.
 
Snoopz said:
Nice.. setup. got hooked on S&B's when I first was "allowed" to shoot my friends on a 700
action / Bartlein .308

bout the only "odd balls" are a ole Leatherwood "ART" on the Devine M1A, a Zeiss
on the HK-91.
Click to expand...

ART's are cool if you understand the idea behind them.
 
I've heard good things on this Trijicon Ten Mile.




This is the same guy shooting with this scope. Considering how he started out and had to turn the windage the scope tracked quite well at 1,000 yards. He came in 4th overall.

 
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BowWow said:
I had a XTR II that had a lot of great features, but the clarity of the glass let me down. The quality of the glass was no better than my Leupold VX2, which was a much cheaper scope. Burris keeps coming out with new products trying to find the one that takes off for them. I hope the XTR3 has better glass than the XTR2. Everything else about the Burris was very good though.
Click to expand...

i have a Burris XTRII 3-15 and you pretty much hit nail on the head here
 
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clay_fv said:
I pulled the trigger on the Leupold 5HD 3.6-18. My desires for the gun/scope are to have a good platform for defense (long range) and even hunting. I don't do competitions. Maybe someday, but that's just not my overall desire. It'll be on a 20" 308 AR. I liked that it was so lightweight, but apparently has some great scores for its clarity. I'm currently 45 and still don't use any corrective lenses. I can most definitely tell a difference over the past 10 years though! However, I find my night sight is what's changed the most. When the sun gets low or it's a dark day, I can really tell what I could used to see clearly isn't clear anymore. Hopefully this will be a solid 1000y scope, but pull the duty for multiple rolls.

So the next question, does anyone have any solid recommendations I should use for torque values on the rings? I don't know if the manual will give me specs or not.
Click to expand...
18 in lbs for the ring caps max. Which rings did you go with.
 
I’ve gotten hits at 1200 yards with my Vortex Diamondback Tactical 5-24 scope on my 6.5 Grendel, as such I can tell you that I believe Vortex is dang good for the money, and I’m 2-3 models below what you’re looking at.
 
JBoyette said:
Ok, here is my $0.02 on this.

A Grid reticle is for holding bullet drop. Not dialing bullet drop. This is why I posted the H425 reticle with the USO. Holding is faster in all accounts and allows one to truly maximize the value of the semi-auto

Now, one must do the relationship of FOV to stadia. As a example, 5HD 3.6-18x44 FOV is 28.3 - 5.8 ft. Lets do some math half power would be 10.8x the FOV would be 17.05 ft Lets round that to 17 feet.

17 feet is 204 inches
1 MIL at 100 yards = 3.6"
204/3.6= 56 mils
So the field of view at 10.8x is 56 mils.

This will hold true for all distances because we converted a liner unit of measure to a angular units of measure. You can do the low end and high end of the optic if you want too.

View attachment 442493

So the width of this reticle is 20 MIL The depth of the image is in all practical use is 10MILs Height is 5 MIL

Where am I going with this?

Well at 10.8x the FOV is 56 mils. The width is 20 MILs that means you have 18MILS of FOV to the left and right of the reticle showing you the terrain, or about 1/3rd of the field of view is the reticle. THIS IS A GOOD THING!

Because at 1/2 power and up, the reticle becomes easier to view as the FOV reduces and the perception of the reticle is it "grows" that's an optical illusion, the reticle subtends the same amount of FOV, its just as the power goes up, the FOV goes down.....

Now, design of a reticle is a different topic, for this line of optics I like the Tremor 3 personally.
Click to expand...

To add to this, I had a Mk5HD 3.6-18 FFP with the PR1-Mil reticle. Fantastic if you plan on dialing or are holding at higher magnifications. The stadia are marked at 5 and 10 mils and the sizes between the whole mil and .2mil values are so close in size, they’re hard to distinguish on the fly at <10x power. The PR2 reticle should solve this (available next year in the 3.6-18x, and now in the higher mag MK5’s) and the Horus/Tremor3 reticles are known quantities

I looked through and handled A LOT of replacement optics, most from $1200-$2000, including NF NX8 2.5-20x, Eotech Vudu 5-25, Razor 4.5-27, Sig Tango6, and others. I opted for the Trijicon TenMile 4.5-30x56. It’ll probably end up on my .308 as I really liked the Leupold Mk5 I sold, but the TenMile side by side with the NF and the Razor….more forgiving eyebox and better adjustments (magnification and turrets) than the NF and was 13oz light than the Razor.

I’ll probably get another Mk5 3.6-18 as a DMR type scope when the PR2 reticle comes out for that magnification range, but the Eotech vudu 5-25 was a strong contender. Great size and was very clear and checks the boxes for the other features I was considering

I can’t say enough good things about the TenMile. So far it’s been a fantastic optic that I’m very happy with. A few DMR matches will really show me if I like it or not
 
I shot a M4 with a 1-8 Razor a couple weeks ago. It was very clear with excellent transmission. Hated the reticle. But if someone wanted to give me one I would not say "no".

If $ was not an issue, for me, a S&B or Leupold MkV or MkIV.
 
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Don't think they ever made a 1-8 Razor. Unless I am mistaken.

They make a 1-6, and a 1-10. I believe they also make a 1.5-8 Razor HD.
 
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