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DirtySCREW

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Just thinking out loud...seeing what's legal.

Let's say you live in the country, not in city limits but are on grid.
You are TIRED of your power bill going up and up and up.

BESIDES SOLAR AND WIND, what could you do?
Could you turn the grid power off....and have a generator hooked up to run your house. Does the powers to be let you DO THAT???

DS
 
You would just need the proper panel and a cut-over switch. As for the local utility letting you do it, that’s the question.

If you plumbed into the municipal system for sewage, you should also find out a back flow preventer valve.
 
Running a whole house generator 24/7 is gonna blow your wallet into the next dimension with just fuel costs, let alone maintanence.
Yeah, I didn't think it would be economically feasible, BUT

Sometimes it better to LIVE FREE than depend on whomever and their throw of the switch to turn your stuff off.

Again...just spit-balling here.

Kinda like the off grid people. Just like to know my "options"
 
Yeah, I didn't think it would be economically feasible, BUT

Sometimes it better to LIVE FREE than depend on whomever and their throw of the switch to turn your stuff off.

Again...just spit-balling here.

Kinda like the off grid people. Just like to know my "options"

Why not go solar with a DIY battery then? It's wildly cheaper, quieter, safer, and been a thing for ages with the off grid crowd. If you're concerned with "someone turning a switch off" then I hope you've got an oil refinery on your property for that gas/diesel genny.
 
Why not go solar with a DIY battery then? It's wildly cheaper, quieter, safer, and been a thing for ages with the off grid crowd. If you're concerned with "someone turning a switch off" then I hope you've got an oil refinery on your property for that gas/diesel genny.
What solar company is good/reputable etc?
 
What solar company is good/reputable etc?

I'm happy with NC Solar. They've got a good reputation from others and treated me well with my install. You can also DIY it if you're up to the electrical work and sun planning.

Alternatively, if it's available in your area you could try out an electric co-op so you can get away from Duke/Progress. It might not be cheaper but it's the equivalent of a credit union but for electricity production.
 
I f you should have an alternate energy source (ie: geothermal or water) that provides an excess amount than required for your residence they are to reimburse you for energy Going back into the system.

That was in KY, no idea how NC treats that scenario.
 
What solar company is good/reputable etc?
It's a good question. May I add an alternative dimension?

If your goal is to truly be independent, what you could consider is teaching yourself enough about the working of the system components so you could design and build your own solar/battery setup, which you could also then maintain. The 'company' aspect becomes moot, because YOU would be 'the company.'

This solar & battery stuff has become pretty cookie-cutter and is not that complicated. I cannot imagine a situation where I'd hire this kind of thing out, personally, especially since I also would want true and full independence.
 
Why not go solar with a DIY battery then? It's wildly cheaper, quieter, safer, and been a thing for ages with the off grid crowd. If you're concerned with "someone turning a switch off" then I hope you've got an oil refinery on your property for that gas/diesel genny.
Agreed here. Relying on diesel or gas in a grid down situation is a fools errand. Come stay at the beach when a named storm is coming and hang around while the power is off. Gas stations that are pumping gas are lined up for miles. Dozens and dozens and dozens of cars in line. You can’t get all you want when it’s your turn. When the card shuts off (typically $100) that’s it your turn is up next person please. Solar or maybe some kind of water or wind apparatus is the best bet for not needing to rely on anyone to a certain degree. Of course stuff breaks and batteries don’t last forever but they last longer than just about any gas, diesel, nat gas, etc power source.
 
Solar panels, plus one of the roof peak wind turbines with an inverter and battery system. The two tend to peak opposite each other. Add a generator for emergency or extended periods of neither wind or solar output.

It would take planning on how you balance the load, but off grid is doable.

Regulations may demand you connect to the grid, but nothing says you can’t disconnect afterwards.
 
Depending on the utility company, there is a minimum charge to be hooked to the grid even if you don’t use it.
I knew a guy who had purchased an old grist mill and also used the water wheel to generate power.
 
Check out a Lister Engine. Runs on diesel or most waste oils.
my Great grandpa ran one on the farm from before WWII through the late 60s.
It’s not going to run an entire modern house but the one he ran lit up the entire house and barn. They are low maintenance and last forever.

 
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Depending on the utility company, there is a minimum charge to be hooked to the grid even if you don’t use it.
I knew a guy who had purchased an old grist mill and also used the water wheel to generate power.
This is true. The boat I work on there is a meter for the shore power at the boat slip. It’s $19/month I think for the service and that’s their minimum charge.
 
Duke Energy monthly basic customer charge is $14 plus power metered and sales tax.
Lowest I’ve seen on our barn / workshop with near zero usage is $37.
I have a house and shop building, with separate meters (Duke Progress). House (residential) base rate is about $14 but the shop meter is billed at commercial base rate, about... $37 or so. So those both make sense.
 
I have a house and shop building, with separate meters (Duke Progress). House (residential) base rate is about $14 but the shop meter is billed at commercial base rate, about... $37 or so. So those both make sense.
Yup, the shop is considered commercial. You’re exactly right.
 
I recently did an experiment to see what it would take to run my 5 to 7 amp freezer on batteries with an inverter, charging the batteries with solar panels. With two size 27 deep cycle batteries and two 100 amp solar panels, it failed to have enough battery capacity, and it failed to have enough charging capacity. Neither the batteries nor the panels performed up to their own spec. I need to double both, and that makes it not worth it. I am going to repurpose the system to power 12 volt lighting, instead of the freezer.

I think the best thing to do right now is to minimize the use of electricity with LED lighting and wood heating. When the grid goes down or becomes unreliable, we are going to lose refrigeration and air conditioning. Heat and light are easier to replace.

Pumping water out of my well is one of my biggest concerns.
 
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I recently did an experiment to see what it would take to run my 5 to 7 amp freezer on batteries with an inverter, charging the batteries with solar panels
Tagged, the EE in me would like to run through some back of the napkin calculations on the power required.
 
To run your whole home “off grid” via solar you’re going to need a BIG system. If you’re like me and you’re running an electric heat pump, electric stove, clothes dryer etc it just doesn’t make sense. I looked into a Generac whole home system 22 or 24kw (can’t recall)and I was going to burn about $300 a day give or take in propane to run my 2100 sq ft house like we normally do. On average we use anywhere from 80-100KWH per day with some spikes to 200 two weeks ago when it got real cold. Granted this is also heating and cooling a 900 sq ft detached shop as well.

If you are using any of the above appliances with propane/NG you will be much better off.

I am now looking at the solar “generators” with some foldable panels and a smaller inverter propane/dual fuel genny. To go big and to run “everything” just doesn’t financially make sense. I can afford the big system I just can’t justify its cost. In the last 5 years here we’ve lost power less than a handful of times and all but one was back on within a few hours. The mountain cabin is a whole different ball came….

My mom has the Ecoflow delta mini and I was able to run our fridge for 10 hours off it. I plan to go bigger than the mini though.

My wife and I both agreed that the above two options are will keep the fridge/freezer going, some lights and a window unit to cool the bedroom in summer time. In winter we have a propane fireplace that I plan to get a 120 gallon “fat boy” tank. Should run both the fireplace and small generator for some time before needing a refill.

Unless you have tons of $ you are going to have to make some sacrifices. Shoot besides an end of world situation if we see a storm heading our way we can just as easily grab an Airbnb for a week and enjoy a little getaway 5-6 hours away.

Here’s the link to the ecoflow battery bank’s.

Edit: My opinion is coming from someone who is younger. If I were older and couldnt rough it for medical reasons etc you bet your a$$ id have a big standby whole home generator with a 500-1000 gallon buried tank. I bet my opinion will change as I age.
 
I recently did an experiment to see what it would take to run my 5 to 7 amp freezer on batteries with an inverter, charging the batteries with solar panels. With two size 27 deep cycle batteries and two 100 amp solar panels, it failed to have enough battery capacity, and it failed to have enough charging capacity. Neither the batteries nor the panels performed up to their own spec. I need to double both, and that makes it not worth it. I am going to repurpose the system to power 12 volt lighting, instead of the freezer.

I think the best thing to do right now is to minimize the use of electricity with LED lighting and wood heating. When the grid goes down or becomes unreliable, we are going to lose refrigeration and air conditioning. Heat and light are easier to replace.

Pumping water out of my well is one of my biggest concerns.
There is a deep well manual pump that has been the standard in the prepping community. Which I'm assuming you know. ENGINEER775 used to install them. They're about $1500.


Used to be, as @Ben Jefferson mentioned, Duke was required to buy surplus power from you if you generated it. One option was to have sufficient power generation during the day, that the credits offset having to consume power from them during the evening.

I personally don't know anyone that did that. But, I seem to remember hearing that it was more difficult than not seemed.

When I researched alternative powder to some extent, years ago, it seemed that hydro was the most efficient, generating power night and day. During my research, I happened upon an Alaskan site that discussed needing multiple forms of generation, hydro, wind, solar and fossil fuel. Their point was that at some point each of these sources would not be available. Cloudy days, frozen rivers, etc. So, you need them all.

My master plan theory/project is to power a genset with a gasifier and having sufficient battery storage. This will be along with solar.
 
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I think the most practical method right now is solar+battery. Duke used to do annual net metering, now they do monthly (meaning your spring/fall excess gets wholesale price back ~$.03/kwh and your summer/winter deficit you pay ~.14/kwh (with taxes and fees). I have been investigating, and I think I can run without grid indefinitely on 13kw of panels and 30 kwh of battery, including well pump, except for my 2.5 and 3.5 ton heat pumps. I'd just have to wear more layers in the winter with no power. I have a propane range fed by a 100lb tank, and I have a second filled tank, so I can cook for 3+ years. In long cloudy winter periods like this one, I'd have to be careful with the power, but I could keep the essentials going for sure (led lighting, fridge, freezer, dog fence, alarm, well, rechargeable tools/devices/lights, and starlink/wifi if operating). With the grid up, I think it would cover maybe half of summer AC, and maybe 1/3 of winter heat, so if grid down it ought to have enough power for some heat and AC. Keep the pipes from freezing and take the edge off the hottest days is much better than nothing.

16kw of panels would (in theory at least) have zeroed out my annual usage on the old annual net metering plan - too bad it's gone. I think the 13kw/30kwk/15kw (inverter) plan I am looking at will run about $42k total, -30% for the federal tax credit, so about $30K. Not cheap, but power costs are just going up. At current prices I think it would pay back in ~13 years, so that's probably worst case. Probably as good an investment as anything else in this "everything in a bubble" economy, if you have the money. Stocks, bonds, real property, and most everything else is overpriced right now (although it will probably get more overpriced with inflation continuing). Think of a solar/battery system as a diversification of your portfolio. It's about a 6.5% rate of return on capital, and it will grow with energy inflation. Up to you whether you think that's a good investment. Solar does require a decent sized roof with southern exposure (SE to SW) or room for a ground mount array, in both cases, not shadowed by buildings or trees during the prime sunny hours. NC gets the equivalent of about 5 hours/day of full sun (more in summer, less in winter), so an unshaded 400w panel facing south at the optimal slope angle will generate on average about 2kwh of power on a clear day.

To me, generators are for storms and other short term outages. Very limited by the fuel you can keep on hand and fresh. And they are very noisy and attract attention, which is probably counterproductive in a longer term outage anyway. One of the small 2-3Kw quiet honda inverter generators, or similar, in an outdoor enclosure with further sound deadening might be good for fridge/freezer and a few other small loads for a bit longer (certainly not well pump). I do buy fuel (and add Stabil) about 30 gal at a time, and I think I end up doing that every 9-12 months (big mower mostly). I try not to run completely out so the last 5-10 gal goes in a vehicle gas tank. I do have a 5kw gas generator, and it has been very useful in past hurricanes and ice storms. More recently I got a 4kw propane generator (black friday a couple years ago at a great price). It is wonderful for fridge/freezer/phone charger in short term outages since the fuel system is completely empty and clean once shut off - I LOVE that. Cleaning the carb on a gas gen when you need it (after hurricane or ice storm) is NOT fun. Of course, a whole house backup generator (20-40kw) with a direct nat gas feed is another story, but on gasoline or propane they are expensive to run for anything but short term emergencies.

If you have hydro available, it is wonderful. It is not common though - normally requires hilly terrain, and running water of course. If you don't have a year round waterfall or fast (rapids) stream, probably won't be a major source of power. You need many gal/min with at least several dozen feet of drop to get significant power. I have a friend that looked into it. Plenty of info on the web about it. I didn't investigate since I don't have appropriate land and suitable sites are few and far between in centrol NC. Too flat.

Wind is just not useful in central NC. We get a LOT more sun than wind, relatively. Maybe at the coast or in the mountains - I haven't looked, but we have a small minority of days/year where wind speeds even start to make much power with turbines. I'm sure that there are wind maps you can find to figure it out, and all the turbines I checked into (briefly) had graphs of wind speed vs power. Typical is no power below 6 mph, half power at ~20 and rated power at ~30. In Kansas sure. Here 20 is rare outside of storms. I trust solar panels to work longer too - no moving parts.
 
Tagged, the EE in me would like to run through some back of the napkin calculations on the power required.
What my experiment showed is that the old "double it" fudge factor is needed. Twice the battery capacity and twice the charging capacity as indicated by the numbers.
 
When I was in West Texas last fall I saw a number of solar powered deep water wells. What they do is direct feed the submersible pumps from the solar panels, and use the well pump to fill a tank. There is a separate - smaller 120V pump that provides water to the house/shop from the tank (Although one should be able to use a 12V DC pump make for an RV).

The pumps are DC powered, multi-voltage and look like a large version of a standard submersible pump. The solar panels feeing them are not particularly large.
 
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What my experiment showed is that the old "double it" fudge factor is needed. Twice the battery capacity and twice the charging capacity as indicated by the numbers.
Yup, it’s amazing how often that rule is spot on accurate.
 
Yup, it’s amazing how often that rule is spot on accurate.
I used to use that rule in estimating IT work (hrs, equipment, cost) and it was usually spot on.
 
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here is an article about ROOFTOP solar.
quote:

In late 2023 alone, more than 100 residential solar dealers and installers in the U.S. declared bankruptcy,
according to Roth Capital Partners—six times the number in the previous three years combined.
Roth expects at least 100 more to fail. The two largest companies in the industry, SunRun and Sunnova,
both posted big losses in their most recent quarterly reports, and their shares are down
86% and 81% respectively from their peaks in January 2021.

 
@Michael458 has experience with solar power system.
Indeed I do. About 10 years ago I dived headfirst into Solar...... not because I am a green weany by any stretch, more of a "Power" is life sort of chap....... Power is right up there with having enough ammo and guns to get one through some difficult days, weeks, months and maybe even years..............

At that time we put in the most sofisticated/comlicated computer controlled system that Outback had. I was familiar with Outback from days spent in Australia in the Northern Territories, where Outback supplied all the power for the entire area via Solar. Huge systems, bigger than damn cars.......... Hell I figured if it was tough enough for the Australian Outback, it should be good to go for me.

At the time, the biggest inverters were 8kw each. I went with two, one slaved and connected to the other, giving me 16kw. Well, the best the system will not make 16 kw, and my panels were not placed for optimum sunlight, so at best in the dead of June hi center, I would get around 13kw. Which was not bad and you can power lots of stuff at 13kw for about 6-8 hours of good sunlight. I had 67 250 watt Canadian panels. 16.75 KW total.........

System ran pretty decent for the first 5 years or so. Computer updates, things like that. The company that put the system in lost their best man, that installed and understood the system. They could not replace him. Gradually everything went to crap, and the last two years it was up, it was mostly down, and the company did not have enough knowledge to keep it running. The fellow that installed the system, finally went out on his own, I touched base and in just a few days he had the system up and going again, where it had been down for 6 months or better and screwed up royally by the original company........... It ran ok, but was in and out of service, computer updates, upgrades and such as that, Outback Assistance also become spotty at best...........




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I had a serious battery system with this as well.......... two banks of seriously heavy duty Outback batteries, perhaps the best and most reliable part of the entire system.

We went through several hurricanes and power outages. I think one time power was out for about 7 days. This is not enough power to run any heat and very little cooling. I now have some smaller Mitsibishi Air Con/Heat that can be run with the solar power, they are only pulling about 1.5-2 kw. But of course this is not the entire compound, just some areas........ You can run deep well water pumps, which is extremely important, water pump pulls about 2kw when running. All my lighting is LED. You manage power, run the heavy stuff when you have the most sun, and start tapering off towards night time. You don't run big heat pumps, ovens, and clothes dryers. That is out. At night you start shutting most things down that pull a lot of power. Priority goes to freezers, fridges and a few lights at night. I have enough battery power to run all freezers, fridges and other all night long until the next day, and will be down to 70% battery or so. There are 4 larger freezers, two small ones, two large fridges, and 5 small ones. Next day, repeat...... and on you go. By the time the grid is back up and running, you are very happy, as it is a chore, and pain in the ass to manage your power. We have hybrid hot water heaters here, so we can run hot water and have nice showers no issues........... but you do so in the middle of the day as well, so you can heat back up what you use without issue.............

Finally after much aggravation with the Outback, constant updates, upgrades and issues, I got tired of it and decided to scrap the entire system and start over.......... And we did, and right now, out of time, and the rest of the story will have to wait until next week...................

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Finally after much aggravation with the Outback, constant updates, upgrades and issues, I got tired of it and decided to scrap the entire system and start over.......... And we did, and right now, out of time, and the rest of the story will have to wait until next week...................
The Outback system was way too complicated, and basically very few people could deal with the issues. I was lucky, finally the fellow that worked on the original install was back on my solar team, and after the system was down for over 6 months or more, the company that did the original install, no longer had anyone that could work with the system, or understand it, and screwed it up worse than it was. With my guy back on the scene, he had it up and running in a couple of days. We checked the panels, and to our dismay we had lost half our panels due to weather leaks, water and so forth. Trying to contact Canadian Solar, they did not answer emails, phone or anything else. In fact, they did not even make our 250 watt panels anymore, if I wanted to replace I was going to have to find used panels........... which we did on Ebay, and was going to cost around $3000 to bring the system back up with the same panels........ Hmmmmmm......................

We went along for a few months in 2022........ and I decided to make a BIG change, I was sick of the Outback and its unreliability. I mean, what if the Zombie Apocalypse happened, how long would I have power before the OUtback took a big crap.......... ?????? Then what?

Started talking to my guy, he had just installed a couple of new SolArk systems, and was very impressed with them, much more simple, but still a very serious system, engineered and built by a group of military veterans and engineers based in Texas......... My guy said support was incredible, and people were there to help, assist and do what was needed to get you running, and keep you running, and the system was all inclusive, much more simple and way more reliable. Now, today, they have grown to be a leader in this technology. I had already purchased a 5 kw inverter for our Farm, and had intended to upgrade that system there, prices were very reasonable and at the time the 5 kw system only cost $5000.............. For here, I took a look at the 15 kw system to replace the Outback......... now in hindsight I wish I would have added a larger version, but the 15kw was the largest for residential, then you went to commercial....... so.............

The end of 2022 we got the 15kw Sol-Ark Unit in, and had it installed January 2023. We were still working with the surviving panels from Canadian Solar, and we only had about 8-9 kw capacity left out of 16.7 kw.......... The system ran like a charm, day in, day out, zero issues at all.......... Now, the Sol-Ark 15kw inverter was not that expensive even then, about $8000 or so, then installation which was not difficult at all, it was more difficult to remove the Outback and all the crap it had to have than to install the all inclusive ONE BOX Sol-Ark............ And of course it hooks to the internet and can be monitored by not just myself, but Sol-Ark as well...... This became important on one occasion since installation. The system is all inclusive, one box does everything, takes care of everything, it is way more simple to run, its EMP proof, or at least seriously resistant and I think far more reliable. If you do have an issue, you can actually speak to someone and or they will get back to you.

We had a small issue only once since installing, I even forget exactly what it was, but we spoke to the Tech, he saw it online, it was a simple update, in 10 minutes he solved it via online and there has not been any other issues. It runs daily and supposedly sends power back to the grid and removed from your power bill, but that is basically a non issue and really makes you nothing.

Last fall instead of trying to find used Canadian Solar panels to match, we replaced all the solar panels with the newest European made 365 watt panels. We installed 17 kw worth of panels, the 15kw can handle more at peak, however even at 17kw we may never come close, I would be impressed at 14kw in middle of June when the sun is at its very peak, dead over top of the panels. But, right now, this past week on a sunny day we were hitting 11 kw and its only first of February....> Hmmmm.......... Maybe we do pretty good with new higher more efficient panels and system? We will see, but I have never ever made 11 kw in February.

The real value is going off grid. Well here, we have the system broken out into the house side and the building side. I can run power to both, or either. When I play off grid, when the grid is up and running, I normally take the building off grid during the day. We can run everything except the major heat pumps and air con off grid. All lights, computers, fridges and freezers. The water pump is on the house side. I do have to cut the pool pump off, it hits 2-2.5 kw and I can do without the pool pump a few hours, or even days this time of year. It is not hard to take off grid. I make sure the Solar breakers to the building and house are off, easy, they are always OFF.... outside I flip over the main transfer switch (Manual) to go off grid. Then upstairs to flip the breaker on the solar to on for the building, and like magic the lights come back on. Now, you have to make sure all heat pumps and heavy drain items are off before hand. But then you run like normal until you are not making enough power. Right now, even February, I start making around 2-3 kw by 8-8:30 am, it goes up substantially Peaks at 11-1 pm, then starts dropping until around 3:30 or so. By around 4 pm this time of year we are down to only making around 1kw...... another hour it goes flat........Then what is stored in the batteries starts to get used.

Playing off grid, I normally go back on grid by around 3 pm or so.......... I can run 6+ hours off grid. Now, if I am not running heat or air con, I can just leave the building off grid until the next day and not worry about it, I have enough battery power to run all the freezers and fridges all night..........

Zombie Apocalypse time! Now you have to get serious about limiting power with this system. You can forget the big heat pumps for air/heat. You can forget the big ovens and clothes dryers and heavy power units. You can run all fridges, freezers, lights, computers, chargers, tv's, hybrid hot water heaters, your deep well water pump, and most other essentials. Use your heaviest power units from 10 am to 2 pm here, this time of year, and start to wean off later in the evening and down to a few lights, and all fridges and freezers overnight. Then by 8 am next morning you are making power again, charging batteries is priority of the system and go again...... manage power all day. You take your showers and other heavy electrical pulls from 10 am to 2 pm.........

It can be done, but it can be a pain in the ass too............... and of course, all this depends on your amount of sunshine......... Today it is cloudy and raining.... you still make power, but not much........ at this moment I am making 700 watts.......... If I was dependent, I would be in the dark and hoping I had enough power to keep fridges/freezers running until the "Sun Came Back on".......... Oh wow, it just jumped up to 1200 watts...... 1.2 kw......... HEH......

Sol-Ark is the best I have seen or know about at this time, and for a solar system, affordable ............. I have $8000 or so in the Sol-Ark Inverter, and another $10,000 in the new panels we just put in last fall.......

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I also wanted to add the website for Sol-Ark............. you can find lots of good, interesting things and learn a lot here.........

 
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@Michael458
How long of a life do the batteries have?
I assume your system has control built in to not harm the batteries by pulling them down to low, is that correct?

Thanks for the info.
 
Current good quality Lifepo4 batteries are good for 7k-8k cycles, about 15 years of daily cycling of 80% (95 to 15 and back for instance). Longer if you don't cycle them every day.

Yes, charge controllers (whether in a Sol-Ark 15K or any other serious solar charger) control charging, either by battery voltage, or by communicating directly with the battery management system (which controls the charge/discharge).
 
@Michael458
How long of a life do the batteries have?
I assume your system has control built in to not harm the batteries by pulling them down to low, is that correct?

Thanks for the info.
@JimP42 answered even in more detail than I could have....... I was told around 10 years in the beginning, well mine are now 10 years and they seem to be just fine, I have not replaced them with the new system........... We don't like for the batteries to go below 50% and they only did so once when the Outback was being stupid, when I noticed it I had to cut the entire system off......

Mine do not get cycled through very often, hoping they last another 5 years or so at least........ batteries are fairly expensive part of the system.

I think the Sol-Ark is set when the batteries go to 40% the system shuts down, as I recall.........
 
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