Hunting deer with .223/5.56, need input

The fudd side of me was always hesitant to recommend .223 to beginners.

But on the other hand, I put a 16" barreled AR in my youngest daughter's hands when she was 9 and she whacked her first doe. 40 yard shot in the vitals, ran about 10 yards and dropped.

I took a couple of deer with .223 before I set her up just to make sure it was doable. Initially I was using the 75 grain Hornady TAP rounds. They did exactly as advertised, penetrated maybe 3 inches or so and exploded. However, I'm not a big fan of the rounds coming apart. So we switched to the Federal Tactical Bonded LE 55 grain rounds and shot deer with those until we pretty much ran out.

.223 does it just fine, but "larger" calibers help compensate for your mistakes. When I was initially contemplating trying .223 a couple of things stuck out in my mind. Most of the "spotlighters" around here that got caught were using .22 Magnum. And I had taken several deer with archery equipment and thought that surely .223 could be just as good or better than an arrow.

My oldest daughter and I have probably taken around 40 deer combined in the last 5 years or so.
Out of that 40, I'd say around 25 or so were with .223 from an AR with 16 inch barrel. Federal Tactical Bonded 55 Grain or Federal Fusion 62 grain. (The others were taken with a mixture of muzzleloaders, .308, and 7mm-08.)

We've yet to loose a deer shot with .223. I think maybe we are a little more "picky" about or shots, and we restrict our range to 150 yards or (most often) significantly less. The longest shot I've taken with .223 was around 130 yards. We also restrict our glass to low power so we don't try to longer shots. Little bit of self discipline by reminder.

Everyone's hunting/killing technical philosophy is not gonna be the same. Doesn't mean mine is right and theirs is wrong. Just different. I don't care for frangible rounds for deer, nor ballistic tips, and I barely lend any credence at all to expansion.

That being said, I've been really happy with Federal Fusion 62 grain .223 and it's performance on deer. Nowadays I highly prefer a solid "high shoulder shot" over any other placement including the vitals and the neck. I'm old, fat, and tired. I don't like to trail deer anymore. The Federal Fusion is "solid enough" to allow me to take shoulder shots at my proscribed distance limits, but soft enough that if I had to take a vitals shot it still performs well. If I had unlimited access to the Federal Tactical Bonded, I never would have switched to Federal Fusion, but such is life.


The pictures below are from last year. I shot the bobcat carrying the squirrel first at about 30 yards. The rifle was a 16" barrel .223 with Federal Fusion 62 grain. About 10 minutes later I had to put my cigarette out and put my coffee down so I could shoot the 9 pointer in the shoulder at about 90 yards. Both critters dropped on the spot. The squirrel was already dead.


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The Fudd side of me would would STILL recommend a newbie to use a larger caliber because I don't know if you are disciplined enough to take the right shot. You don't wanna be sloppy just because you are using a bigger caliber, but, newbies make mistakes sometimes. And at the very least a bad shot with what was traditionally considered a "deer caliber" PROBABLY/OFTEN allows that wounded animal to die a quicker death and suffer less.

But if you are my 9 year old daughter and I think you will follow my directions explicitly, then maybe newbie gets the .223.

The "advantage" that a .223/5.56 allows my family and I is not so much due to the caliber as it is the AR platform.
Comfort. Adjust the length of pull on the fly for different users or different stands. I can maneuver an adjustable AR to take shot no matter where the deer comes out. Over my right shoulder, stock almost all the way collapsed with a red dot optic? Yep, got it. Try that with my .308 with my hubble telescope optic ain't gonna happen. Never know which direction the deer are really gonna come from.
Low recoil for the kids/elderly.
Little bit quieter for not aggravating the neighbors especially on Sunday. And that is me not running any suppressors.
The versatility to shoot the bobcat without crapping all over the woods when I have folks in other stands. Plus I ate the bobcat too, and tanned the hide. And was still able to drop the 9 point. The AR .223/5.56 platform is just versatile and comfortable for my family to use, and we often do.
 
concepthomes2 said:
I'm surprised all the Fudds on here who maintain "I'd pick something else if I had the option".

A .223 Federal Fusion 62 GR round will stop any whitetail deer with proper placement; that is a true statement. And as with every ethical shot taken, placement is key to ensure the quickest death.

I submit for proof this Northern Michigan whitetail taken last year by me with a Ruger American Ranch 5.56 with a 16" barrel.

View attachment 375385
Click to expand...
Your margin of error goes down significantly and what do you gain? If you only own an ar15 and nothing else, it's fine but it's far from ideal. And if you don't have a can .223 is very very loud compared to most 30 cal stuff
 
thrillhill said:
The fudd side of me was always hesitant to recommend .223 to beginners.

But on the other hand, I put a 16" barreled AR in my youngest daughter's hands when she was 9 and she whacked her first doe. 40 yard shot in the vitals, ran about 10 yards and dropped.

I took a couple of deer with .223 before I set her up just to make sure it was doable. Initially I was using the 75 grain Hornady TAP rounds. They did exactly as advertised, penetrated maybe 3 inches or so and exploded. However, I'm not a big fan of the rounds coming apart. So we switched to the Federal Tactical Bonded LE 55 grain rounds and shot deer with those until we pretty much ran out.

.223 does it just fine, but "larger" calibers help compensate for your mistakes. When I was initially contemplating trying .223 a couple of things stuck out in my mind. Most of the "spotlighters" around here that got caught were using .22 Magnum. And I had taken several deer with archery equipment and thought that surely .223 could be just as good or better than an arrow.

My oldest daughter and I have probably taken around 40 deer combined in the last 5 years or so.
Out of that 40, I'd say around 25 or so were with .223 from an AR with 16 inch barrel. Federal Tactical Bonded 55 Grain or Federal Fusion 62 grain. (The others were taken with a mixture of muzzleloaders, .308, and 7mm-08.)

We've yet to loose a deer shot with .223. I think maybe we are a little more "picky" about or shots, and we restrict our range to 150 yards or (most often) significantly less. The longest shot I've taken with .223 was around 130 yards. We also restrict our glass to low power so we don't try to longer shots. Little bit of self discipline by reminder.

Everyone's hunting/killing technical philosophy is not gonna be the same. Doesn't mean mine is right and theirs is wrong. Just different. I don't care for frangible rounds for deer, nor ballistic tips, and I barely lend any credence at all to expansion.

That being said, I've been really happy with Federal Fusion 62 grain .223 and it's performance on deer. Nowadays I highly prefer a solid "high shoulder shot" over any other placement including the vitals and the neck. I'm old, fat, and tired. I don't like to trail deer anymore. The Federal Fusion is "solid enough" to allow me to take shoulder shots at my proscribed distance limits, but soft enough that if I had to take a vitals shot it still performs well. If I had unlimited access to the Federal Tactical Bonded, I never would have switched to Federal Fusion, but such is life.


The pictures below are from last year. I shot the bobcat carrying the squirrel first at about 30 yards. The rifle was a 16" barrel .223 with Federal Fusion 62 grain. About 10 minutes later I had to put my cigarette out and put my coffee down so I could shoot the 9 pointer in the shoulder at about 90 yards. Both critters dropped on the spot. The squirrel was already dead.


View attachment 375391


View attachment 375392


View attachment 375393




The Fudd side of me would would STILL recommend a newbie to use a larger caliber because I don't know if you are disciplined enough to take the right shot. You don't wanna be sloppy just because you are using a bigger caliber, but, newbies make mistakes sometimes. And at the very least a bad shot with what was traditionally considered a "deer caliber" PROBABLY/OFTEN allows that wounded animal to die a quicker death and suffer less.

But if you are my 9 year old daughter and I think you will follow my directions explicitly, then maybe newbie gets the .223.

The "advantage" that a .223/5.56 allows my family and I is not so much due to the caliber as it is the AR platform.
Comfort. Adjust the length of pull on the fly for different users or different stands. I can maneuver an adjustable AR to take shot no matter where the deer comes out. Over my right shoulder, stock almost all the way collapsed with a red dot optic? Yep, got it. Try that with my .308 with my hubble telescope optic ain't gonna happen. Never know which direction the deer are really gonna come from.
Low recoil for the kids/elderly.
Little bit quieter for not aggravating the neighbors especially on Sunday. And that is me not running any suppressors.
The versatility to shoot the bobcat without crapping all over the woods when I have folks in other stands. Plus I ate the bobcat too, and tanned the hide. And was still able to drop the 9 point. The AR .223/5.56 platform is just versatile and comfortable for my family to use, and we often do.
Click to expand...
Is bobcat any good though?
 
Notacop said:
Your margin of error goes down significantly and what do you gain? If you only own an ar15 and nothing else, it's fine but it's far from ideal. And if you don't have a can .223 is very very loud compared to most 30 cal stuff
Click to expand...
I'd have to disagree with the sound component. Our blinds are spaced out across our land but we can hear each others' shots when we use larger calibers (.450 Bushmaster, 30.06, .308 Win) but with my 5.56 rifle, no one hears my shots with or without my can.

What do I gain? Mobility, lightweight, effective range of ~350 yds (and for whitetail, that's pretty generous).

The round works.
 
Notacop said:
Is bobcat any good though?
Click to expand...

It's not bad, but it's not so good that I would crave it.

You know those pork loins that the yuppies buy at the grocery store? They look delicious in that prepackaged plastic "sheath" with all the marinate juice sloshing around.

And they are easy to throw on the grill. But, then you start eating them and they are kind of dry and white and boring.

That's what bobcat tastes like. Really lean pork. And that is how you have to cook it as well because they carry some of the same parasites as pork.

I highly prefer things with a stronger taste. We eat a lot of squirrel and panfish, as well as snapping turtles and racoons. I would eat bobcat as a "survival" ration and be happy about it. And if I kill any this year we will still eat them because that's how we roll, but it would probably be relegated to brunswick stew.

More in depth thread here:

Crazy-Cool Hunt Today (***MILDLY GRAPHIC***)

I had some pretty bad sinus headaches last night that woke me up at midnight, then 1am, and 4am. The alarm went off at 5 am and I did NOT want to get up. But, I had a friend over that was spending a couple of nights and I knew I needed to get up and get him in a stand and I might as well go to...
carolinafirearmsforum.com
 
Some might not agree but I personally do not agree with using a 223/556 for deer hunting. Yes it’s enough to kill a deer. There are several variables to take into consideration. How far is the deer? Is there any branches/limbs/small trees in the way that you can’t see? A small bullet like a 223 can deflect off a small limb and just a little deflection can cause you to miss a vital spot. Longer distances it will lose the velocity it needs to be effective. Most that I know that hunt with a 556/223 AR platform only do so for the fun/cool factor. And I repeat “most” not all.

If it’s just about hunting with a rifle you already have and not wanting to purchase another, I’d look into a different caliber upper and get something more suitable for deer hunting(6.8, 6.5, 300 BO, 450 bushmaster,etc)
 
concepthomes2 said:
I'd have to disagree with the sound component. Our blinds are spaced out across our land but we can hear each others' shots when we use larger calibers (.450 Bushmaster, 30.06, .308 Win) but with my 5.56 rifle, no one hears my shots with or without my can.

What do I gain? Mobility, lightweight, effective range of ~350 yds (and for whitetail, that's pretty generous).

The round works.
Click to expand...
Maybe it's been a long time since I've shot with no ears and no can.
 
vp9c said:
are you forgetting that this is the Internet? The mighty Whitetail can only fall to the 50 BMG. anything less is just amateur hour
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For every picture here there are 10 deer running around with holes in them or that ran off never to be found by anything but a coyote, all because somebody thought the .223 was a good idea.

Sure neck shot are cool. But miss that spine by a little and you have a deer with a chunk missing out of its neck.

Most people that have to ask, “can I hunt with my AR” have never been in the woods. You may be able to hit paper all day long off of sand bags but the woods make it a tad more difficult.

Just saying sometimes you have to buy appropriate tools for the job and not everybody is adequate in their ability.
 
Theorizing here. Most hunting rifles don't have a muzzle device, so the majority of the sound goes out away from the shooter. ARs normally have a flash hider or muzzle brake that's going to redirect some of the sound in different directions. That could mean the AR is louder at the shooters ear, but quieter to others off in the distance.
 
WildBill said:
I think the only reason you wouldn't want to use .223 for deer is if you have 200+ yard shot opportunities. Anything under 200, if you do your part the bullet will do it's part.
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There in lies the conundrum. The .223 provides no advantage for poor shots.
 
Tailhunter said:
Most people that have to ask, “can I hunt with my AR” have never been in the woods.
Click to expand...

I kind of agree with that statement and that is why for the longest time I wouldn't post in these threads. (It's a time honored tradition, we have one almost every year about this subject around this time of year.)


On the other hand, I hear almost the same line as this on most hunting/gun forums about buckshot:
Tailhunter said:
For every picture here there are 10 deer running around with holes in them
Click to expand...
Where I grew up we were not allowed to use anything to deer hunt except shotgun with buckshot (not by law, by landowner dictate).

Never lost a deer I shot at with buckshot. One occasion it took 3 shots but all were from the same spot on the ground I was hunting and they were in rapid succession.

But I do read about the guys in dog hunting country killing them with rifle from a stand and finding buckshot under the skin. Who knows?

I've lost 1 deer in my hunting life, it was shot with a .308 from about 10 yards. Learned a lot on that one.


Once you've become an experienced hunter and shooter, you jump firmly into "it's the Indian not the arrow" territory.

I'll be sticking by my original sentiment, .223 works just fine. I'm still hesitant to recommend it to beginners though.



On a side note that's still pertinent, I met an older guy a few years ago from out west who was a gun nut and we became friends. I was kind of surprised to learn that during his time the most common hunting rig for antelope was .222.

Not a typo, .222. I know some of the younger crowd may not be as familiar with .222. But they regularly pushed it out to 400 yards on the antelope and the .222 rig was pretty much the standard. I think this was in the mid 60s through late 70s before he moved here in the 80s.
 
thrillhill said:
The fudd side of me was always hesitant to recommend .223 to beginners.

But on the other hand, I put a 16" barreled AR in my youngest daughter's hands when she was 9 and she whacked her first doe. 40 yard shot in the vitals, ran about 10 yards and dropped.

I took a couple of deer with .223 before I set her up just to make sure it was doable. Initially I was using the 75 grain Hornady TAP rounds. They did exactly as advertised, penetrated maybe 3 inches or so and exploded. However, I'm not a big fan of the rounds coming apart. So we switched to the Federal Tactical Bonded LE 55 grain rounds and shot deer with those until we pretty much ran out.

.223 does it just fine, but "larger" calibers help compensate for your mistakes. When I was initially contemplating trying .223 a couple of things stuck out in my mind. Most of the "spotlighters" around here that got caught were using .22 Magnum. And I had taken several deer with archery equipment and thought that surely .223 could be just as good or better than an arrow.

My oldest daughter and I have probably taken around 40 deer combined in the last 5 years or so.
Out of that 40, I'd say around 25 or so were with .223 from an AR with 16 inch barrel. Federal Tactical Bonded 55 Grain or Federal Fusion 62 grain. (The others were taken with a mixture of muzzleloaders, .308, and 7mm-08.)

We've yet to loose a deer shot with .223. I think maybe we are a little more "picky" about or shots, and we restrict our range to 150 yards or (most often) significantly less. The longest shot I've taken with .223 was around 130 yards. We also restrict our glass to low power so we don't try to longer shots. Little bit of self discipline by reminder.

Everyone's hunting/killing technical philosophy is not gonna be the same. Doesn't mean mine is right and theirs is wrong. Just different. I don't care for frangible rounds for deer, nor ballistic tips, and I barely lend any credence at all to expansion.

That being said, I've been really happy with Federal Fusion 62 grain .223 and it's performance on deer. Nowadays I highly prefer a solid "high shoulder shot" over any other placement including the vitals and the neck. I'm old, fat, and tired. I don't like to trail deer anymore. The Federal Fusion is "solid enough" to allow me to take shoulder shots at my proscribed distance limits, but soft enough that if I had to take a vitals shot it still performs well. If I had unlimited access to the Federal Tactical Bonded, I never would have switched to Federal Fusion, but such is life.


The pictures below are from last year. I shot the bobcat carrying the squirrel first at about 30 yards. The rifle was a 16" barrel .223 with Federal Fusion 62 grain. About 10 minutes later I had to put my cigarette out and put my coffee down so I could shoot the 9 pointer in the shoulder at about 90 yards. Both critters dropped on the spot. The squirrel was already dead.


View attachment 375391


View attachment 375392


View attachment 375393




The Fudd side of me would would STILL recommend a newbie to use a larger caliber because I don't know if you are disciplined enough to take the right shot. You don't wanna be sloppy just because you are using a bigger caliber, but, newbies make mistakes sometimes. And at the very least a bad shot with what was traditionally considered a "deer caliber" PROBABLY/OFTEN allows that wounded animal to die a quicker death and suffer less.

But if you are my 9 year old daughter and I think you will follow my directions explicitly, then maybe newbie gets the .223.

The "advantage" that a .223/5.56 allows my family and I is not so much due to the caliber as it is the AR platform.
Comfort. Adjust the length of pull on the fly for different users or different stands. I can maneuver an adjustable AR to take shot no matter where the deer comes out. Over my right shoulder, stock almost all the way collapsed with a red dot optic? Yep, got it. Try that with my .308 with my hubble telescope optic ain't gonna happen. Never know which direction the deer are really gonna come from.
Low recoil for the kids/elderly.
Little bit quieter for not aggravating the neighbors especially on Sunday. And that is me not running any suppressors.
The versatility to shoot the bobcat without crapping all over the woods when I have folks in other stands. Plus I ate the bobcat too, and tanned the hide. And was still able to drop the 9 point. The AR .223/5.56 platform is just versatile and comfortable for my family to use, and we often do.
Click to expand...
Just about as concise as I could ask for, thank you Thrill
 
thrillhill said:
I kind of agree with that statement and that is why for the longest time I wouldn't post in these threads. (It's a time honored tradition, we have one almost every year about this subject around this time of year.)


On the other hand, I hear almost the same line as this on most hunting/gun forums about buckshot:

Where I grew up we were not allowed to use anything to deer hunt except shotgun with buckshot (not by law, by landowner dictate).

Never lost a deer I shot at with buckshot. One occasion it took 3 shots but all were from the same spot on the ground I was hunting and they were in rapid succession.

But I do read about the guys in dog hunting country killing them with rifle from a stand and finding buckshot under the skin. Who knows?

I've lost 1 deer in my hunting life, it was shot with a .308 from about 10 yards. Learned a lot on that one.


Once you've become an experienced hunter and shooter, you jump firmly into "it's the Indian not the arrow" territory.

I'll be sticking by my original sentiment, .223 works just fine. I'm still hesitant to recommend it to beginners though.



On a side note that's still pertinent, I met an older guy a few years ago from out west who was a gun nut and we became friends. I was kind of surprised to learn that during his time the most common hunting rig for antelope was .222.

Not a typo, .222. I know some of the younger crowd may not be as familiar with .222. But they regularly pushed it out to 400 yards on the antelope and the .222 rig was pretty much the standard. I think this was in the mid 60s through late 70s before he moved here in the 80s.
Click to expand...
Your kid is blessed. Has a daddy that teaches her about everything. She will definitely be a well rounded individual.
Now if we could get you to go with every newbie in the woods and whisper directions in their ear, the world would be a better place.

This is the only concern I have with smaller calibers, individuals will clearly state I am limiting my shots to 75 yards until a record book 12 pointer steps into a clearing 300 yards away. Or they get excited and shot a doe in the ass.

Thanks for helping kids do the right thing.
 
Any quality JSP in the 55-75 grain range.

55 grain JSPs out of 20" barrels are quite impressive.
 
Mr. Robot said:
Can’t reply to everyone but this is solid info, thank you. I was thinking the same that it would be sufficient but I have a couple neighbors of mine who are older that scoff at the idea of anything below a 30-06 for deer. Ammo-wise, it looks like a bonded soft-point is the way. I’ll try to find something like Speer or Fusion from the recommendations. Any Hornady offerings, Barnes, etc. I should look out for as well? Won’t be easy finding these so a backup brand won’t hurt

Last question if y’all don’t mind concerning optics. I have a 1x Holosun 515CM but I’m assuming something with magnification would be preferred? Under 100 yds is what I’m shooting for so that may play a factor as well
Click to expand...
Hornady 75grn sst works well - I shot my deer in the heart and it obliterated the organ nice penetration on an 8 point buck
 
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Wild cats aren't normally scavengers, you'd be surprised how good the meat is. Mountain lion
WildBill said:
Wild cats aren't normally scavengers, you'd be surprised how good the meat is. Mountain lion is A+
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I’ll second that. Mountain lion may be my favorite game meat I’ve tried
 
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I have killed deer with everything from buckshot to 223 to 375 H&H magnum to 45/70. They all work. I hesitated to use 223 or 22/250 for a long time because I was wary of the bullets generally designed for those rounds. It seemed as if the bullets were either FMJ or fairly light varmint bullets. I had seen 243 bullets blow up on the shoulders of deer and did not want that to happen again. I had seen bullets sail right through without doing much damage, and I did not want that to happen again. I think the more modern bullets available have made these problems go away if the correct bullets are chosen that will hold together enough to get to the innards and then cause the innards to be scrambled. I have used Barnes to kill deer cleanly in 223 and 22/250 and assume that there are other bullets, such as some mentioned above, that are up to the demands. I have not decided what chambering I will use this year if I get to hunt, but it will probably be 7/57, 308, 30/06, or 45/70. I will leave the smaller ones at home when I go for deer. I have a nice little 7/08 A-Bolt that has been used by several young boys to kill their first deer.
 
concepthomes2 said:
I'm surprised all the Fudds on here who maintain "I'd pick something else if I had the option".

A .223 Federal Fusion 62 GR round will stop any whitetail deer with proper placement; that is a true statement. And as with every ethical shot taken, placement is key to ensure the quickest death.

I submit for proof this Northern Michigan whitetail taken last year by me with a Ruger American Ranch 5.56 with a 16" barrel.

View attachment 375385
Click to expand...
I didn't think 223 was legal for whitetail in MI.
Its definitely not legal in Maine.
 
Slacker said:
I didn't think 223 was legal for whitetail in MI.
Its definitely not legal in Maine.
Click to expand...
It’s not about caliber in MI, it’s about style of cartridge. Straight walled cartridges have a minimum size.
 
S4f said:
Ammo is the key .
I recently had to do some research on if the 5.56 viable as a deer round .And I watched video after video of deer and hogs being killed with the 5.56.
There's also a field and stream article on the web the seven best brands for deer hunting that's a interesting read
Click to expand...
A 5.56 is all I deer hunt with anymore. I use a mk262 (77gr smk) load. Either black hills, IMI or cbc. Shot a very nice 8 a few years ago with it and he was DRT, like a bolt of lightening hit him. Furthest kill was a neck shot doe at 415yds. Generally I try to keep it under 250yds when deer hunting with a 5.56.
 
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Granddaughter killed 2 with her mini14. Dad killed 2 with his ar15. Friends 9 year old killed 2 with ar15.

RAnges 50 to 125 yds.

All broad side or quartering.

Penetration was through and out on all but one which was shot quartering and that round was recovered from a large body buck. Chest bone to right rear ham....about 26 inches.

The load of choice was the lowely, often maligned, 55g winchester soft point.


It ain't about the caliber or bullet so much as the hunter. Double lung, head, neck... and you make meat. 22 long Rifle is sufficient for deer where legal (legal in NC)...if the hunter is sufficient ....

We continue to use this caliber ammo with full confidence.

155127.jpg
 
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