Replacing both aging units. Have quotes for Trane and Goodman. I can get 15.2 Seer Goodman for the same price as 14.8 Trane. Or even better, I can get 14.3 Goodman for 4K less. Any opinions on Seer rating and upcost for the units. House is 22 years old. Any opinion on Goodman vs Trane.
HVAC Opinion
- Thread starter scmoose
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I would stay away from Goodman, but it seems like all the brands are a crapshoot nowadays.
Our American Standards (basic Tranes by a different name) have been solid. I think Consumer Reports gave Trane good reliability ratings as well.
HVAC guys have always told me that Goodman was the bottom brand on the list. Like home builder companies install it because it’s the cheapest and they won’t be responsible for it long after the house is sold.
HVAC quotes I have been involved with for my mom’s house system repair recently - none of the companies have proposed Goodman.
@LeeMajors do you have any insight on this?
HVAC quotes I have been involved with for my mom’s house system repair recently - none of the companies have proposed Goodman.
@LeeMajors do you have any insight on this?
The difference in one SEER point is nothing in cost savings. It will only save money half the year and very little at that. Now if it was 18-20 SEER that is substantial. The winter rating on all of those are much the same and use aux heaters in colder weather.
Goodman is a lower quality unit but Trane also has low end units called builder series. Most likely your Trane quote was builder series at that efficiency rating. Any Trane will last longer than a Goodman. They are made cheap, and stacked deep, deep , deep. Trane replacement parts are double any other brand. You can buy the American Standard color heat pump for $600 less. Both assembled in the same plant sometimes. Just my opinion based on 34 years in the business. Also a unit is only as good as the knowledge and install practices of the company.
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Trane or Carrier are first tier. If there are really other brands that are rebadged Trane or Carrier models, then maybe those too.
.(a few) SEER less for either at the the same price point as anything else, I would take those every time.
.(a few) SEER less for either at the the same price point as anything else, I would take those every time.
As others have said, Goodman is considered bottom grade in terms of quality but there are other factors at play. @scmoose it sounds like you're leaning towards Goodman because of the initial, up front, price which may cost you a lot more in the end. Go with the highest quality, most efficient unit you can and find a good, reputable, installer.
Which model did you go with?
I can't give you any advice on choice of manufacturer, but I can relate this: I had my systems replaced about 4 years ago and asked for a total gut. They replaced 100% of the duct work. The ruined garbage that they pulled out of my crawl space was disturbing. Air quality in my home improved dramatically with all-new everything, and I don't regret that purchase for a second.
We have a Daikin at my wife's shop. It's about 7-8 years old and has bee solid so far. I believe they are the main unit of one of the larger manufacturers, but only recently started marketig more heavilly under their name.
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I just, like this afternoon, priced 4 5 ton commercial 3 phase trane and Goodman units. Goodman was 4.8% cheaper than trane. Same exact warranty. I have a Goodman in my house. No issues in 11 years. I actually bought tranes builder OX-BOX as a back up. Sitting in my storage building waiting till I need it.
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Daikin is one of the largest HVAC companies in the world. They purchased Goodman as well before Goodman filed for bankruptcy. Matter of fact many commercial units now are grey color Goodman units. You will find Daikin more in the Southwest. I assume Gree Manufacturing is still the largest. Probably the highest quality unit now is a Gree Flexx system, with Bosch mini splits overtaking Mitsubishi/Trane in quality.
I'd been told that the Daiken mini-split's were also close to Mitsubishi in terms of quality. Is that your experience as well?
Should be. When Mitsubishi and Trane became a product merger for the USA market they decided quality was no longer a priority, my opinion based on the amount of parts I see coming into my supplier since the agreement. Yes, not a good thing. Daikin seems reliable based on service calls but I have not sold any so my experience is not there.
Bosch is higher quality, as is Carrier’s mini split products.
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We had a trane, old unit so it lasted but we couldn't get parts anymore, I can't remember what it needed now but replaced it with a Goodman and I've been happy with it. Probably going on 10 years now. I had a bad taste in my mouth with trane because I had to buy trane parts...
Quality of install makes a difference as well.
Quality of install makes a difference as well.
I recall a discussion on here, it may have been a post you made, that there were three lines of Mitsubishi mini splits and the only one that was worth anything from a quality standpoint was the top tier one.
get one slightly larger than you need if you can
i have a 3.5 ton when i probably only "needed" a 3 ton
when it has to run full tilt, it is at about 80% max capacity = longer life on the hardware
i have a 3.5 ton when i probably only "needed" a 3 ton
when it has to run full tilt, it is at about 80% max capacity = longer life on the hardware
it was the call we made when we had the house built and it has worked out very well with no issues in 15+ years
this is why Toyota's last forever too - they intentionally de/tune the engines a tad so they aren't running at maximum capacity; this increases the longevity of the mechanical parts.
Your AC will run shorter cycles but more cycles and use higher amperage to get it started. Also it will not take out the humidity well which makes it more difficult to change the temperature. So running longer at low amperage is more desirable and easier on the system. I have a unit 34 years old running fine.
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Went with a high dollar Trane unit many years ago (7-8). 17 SEER multistage compressor. Power bill was cut in half during the summer.
It may just be the law of averages or something where there are just so many Tranes in one’s life that you’re bound to encounter problems…but I have had more frustrating little dumb things with Tranes than anything else. When they work they’re solid.
It may just be the law of averages or something where there are just so many Tranes in one’s life that you’re bound to encounter problems…but I have had more frustrating little dumb things with Tranes than anything else. When they work they’re solid.
We went with a variable speed one. It runs a lot, e.g. 18-20 hours per day but at a low percentage of output, typically 20-40%, instead of cycling on and off, at least in heat mode. This will be the first full summer it will have been in service since we renovated the house last summer and turned it off fairly soon into the project. However, I noticed the electric bills are lower than the previous year, but I would also have to factor in the propane costs since it switches to propane below about 40F.
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I’m a big fan of oversizing most things - but not air conditioning.
As Blackgun advised, too large of a system will short cycle and have more starts. It’s one thing if it’s a commercial environment where the AC is shut off outside of working hours, but for a house the only time this is a good idea is if you have a variable speed compressor (very expensive option.). Otherwise your humidity control is worse and your compressor life is reduced.
I’m actually cooling a 5,300 sq ft shop building with a 2.5 ton system. It does fine (But I have 16” of insulation in the walls and 36” in the attic).
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I sold a house in 2017 with a 1984 Trane unit in it. Ran great. I recommended my service guy who I’ve used for years to the new owners. He continued servicing it till the buyers sold the house to a builder who knocked it down to make way for a larger home.
That Trane ran for 38 years. I replaced a thermocouple once for the gas heat.
I’m sure the EPA’s guidance for thinner walled refrigerant tubing means leaks will occur sooner than later, but I had good luck with that old system.
That Trane ran for 38 years. I replaced a thermocouple once for the gas heat.
I’m sure the EPA’s guidance for thinner walled refrigerant tubing means leaks will occur sooner than later, but I had good luck with that old system.
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I understand the reasoning for not oversizing a cooling system. However, how many residential installers actually run a solid cooling (or heat if you’re sizing for heat pump capacity)? There are a lot of factors and insulation, being southern facing, shade, etc can make a difference. In my high point house, I believe the upstairs unit was slightly undersized and would run continuously in the summer and not maintain set point on really hot days.
My question is, let’s say you’re borderline to where an additional half ton isn’t going to cause short cycling. Would the larger system have less compressor lift due to a higher capacity evaporator and condenser? If so, what @amyracecar is saying makes sense.
My question is, let’s say you’re borderline to where an additional half ton isn’t going to cause short cycling. Would the larger system have less compressor lift due to a higher capacity evaporator and condenser? If so, what @amyracecar is saying makes sense.
On my house I’m actually using an evaporator that is 1/2 ton larger than the condenser/compressor. I opted for that in order to get a higher CFM fan to allow me to increase the airflow upstairs.
The old system would cool downstairs just fine, but in the summer it would get hot upstairs. During the summer months we used to have to place a fan on the downstairs floor pointed upstairs to help even out the cooling.
The oversized evaaporator combined with an adjustable damper in the downstairs ductwork resolved the problem, w/o having the compressor short cycle.
Still saved around $100 per month in the summer time on the electric bill after installation due to the higher seer rating.
The old system would cool downstairs just fine, but in the summer it would get hot upstairs. During the summer months we used to have to place a fan on the downstairs floor pointed upstairs to help even out the cooling.
The oversized evaaporator combined with an adjustable damper in the downstairs ductwork resolved the problem, w/o having the compressor short cycle.
Still saved around $100 per month in the summer time on the electric bill after installation due to the higher seer rating.
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Goodman makes good equipment. They also make some products that other manufacturers relabel as theirs. Not sure it its still true but they used to have a cheap extended labor warranty. Save the $4k and get the cheap Goodman.
My 1994 Goodman heat pump has an issue every year or two, but it's so simple I can keep it running myself w/ another $20 capacitor or contactor. I do zero maintenance other than cleaning it out every couple years. I think mine is an outlier.
I don't know if I should upgrade before it dies for efficiency/reliability/not losing AC for a week every couple years.
I don't know if I should upgrade before it dies for efficiency/reliability/not losing AC for a week every couple years.
If it is going to cost you $6k plus to upgrade, how long is it going to take you to recoup that on your electric bill?