Interesting Read

Discussion in 'Training Classes' started by Etruett, Apr 1, 2020.

  1. Etruett

    Etruett Happy to be here Supporting Member

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  2. Timfoilhat

    Timfoilhat Active Member Benefactor Life Member

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    Tracks with what I know. Use a rifle if you absolutely positively have to stop someone. Pistols are just there so you can fight your way to your rifle.
     
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  3. RedneckFur

    RedneckFur Smith & Wesson is a religion of peace. Supporting Member

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    I've seen that report several times, and its pretty eye opening on the real world results of several different calibers. Rifles and shotguns are superior to handguns. That said, 357 mag isn't too shabby, and 38 special does pretty well too.
     
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  4. JT

    JT credulous boomer rube Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    In my opinion, and my opinion only, Ellifritz's conclusions are solid, based on solid data. (There's a lot of expected pushback because his conclusions appear to refute a lot of so-called expert opinion.)

    OTOH, "some" here have repeatedly said something about "placement and penetration" being paramount. Guess what conclusion is embedded in Ellefritz's research?

    "What matters even more than caliber is shot placement. ... No matter which caliber you use, you have to hit something important in order to stop someone!" [emphasis added]
     
  5. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    I have a Ka-bar. To fight my way to my pistol. Which I then use to fight my way to my rifle. Which I use to fight my way to my belt fed.

    The trail of slightly wounded bodies is impressive.
     
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  6. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    Summary: Caliber is unimportant...Placement is everything...….his words...…..so there:)
     
  7. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    Shoot someone in the center of the face: they will no longer be fighting their way to their rifle.
     
  8. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    I received instructions in the last century from a man that became not only an instructor but a Pard. He said...I have been involved with the most deadly felons on this earth. If there is one thing I can tell you, regardless how dedicated and hard somebody is, if you shoot them in their face...they will Stop what they are doing...……..Advice to live by. We must all find our own salvation...that piece of info, coming from That man, helped me decide how to train for my personal protection. Now 30 years later I'm still trying to be better at it.
     
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  9. GreatGazoo

    GreatGazoo Li'l Green Guy Supporting Member

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    Paul Harrell on shot placement with a 22LR (0.40 - 2:40 is pretty darned funny if you like deadpan humor):
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
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  10. JRV

    JRV Member

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    We had a pastor at our range shoot a guy during a home invasion with a .22 Walther. Ten rounds of 40gr MiniMags, including some to the face, even at contact distances. Guy expired, but only after maiming our customer with a knife.

    I wrestled a guy into the back of an ambulance after he got shot in the forehead with a 9mm. Ball ammo. Ripped off the skin on his forehead and fractured his skull, but he was still fighting.

    We had another deputy centerpunch a guy with two 230gr HST +P rounds, but low center mass. Guy walked himself into the back of the ambulance.

    My classmate from college lost his father during a traffic stop. He hit an obese man with five 125gr .357 Mag JHPs. He was killed by a contact distance .22 Short that deflected off his humerus, entered behind his vest, and severed his aorta. Obese guy lived. All five rounds failed to penetrate to vitals.

    Lessons from experience of self and others:
    - Be in good physical shape.
    - Develop empty-handed skills, de-escalation skills, and first aid skills.
    - Caliber and bullet choice do matter... carry “enough bullet” and use something that will penetrate sufficiently without deflection (not ball ammo, and heavy for caliber). Darryl Bolke did several years as an internal investigator with a large SoCal PD. The only pistol round that had a 100% one-shot stoppage rate for dozens of shootings was .45 Colt.
    - Placement is vital. The heart is a B8. The cranial T-zone is an index card. The spine is too small to be a reliable target, and most pistol rounds will not break the pelvic girdle. Any other shot that induces an immediate stop does so on a purely psychological basis.
    - The obese and the drug-addled are difficult to kill with a pistol. People that are high do not make for reliable psychological stops.
    - People are not soda jugs. A .22 pistol or rifle (as in the PH video) is only marginally better than birdshot and will underpenetrate and deflect off bones.
    - Luck counts for a lot. Awareness and training help you stay lucky.
     
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  11. Timfoilhat

    Timfoilhat Active Member Benefactor Life Member

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    One of my trainers reported he's had a .223 deflect of the edge of a baseball hat visor.

    I've seen photos of a guy who was shot in the head at point blank range by his wife. He used to knock her around after he hit the bottle. She has enough and emptied a P238 into his forehead. Six .380 rounds zipped under his scalp and exited behind his ear into the pillow. He woke up with a headache, called 911 after he saw his blood but didn't know where it came from and walked out to meet the ambulance.

    It's pretty crazy to look into this stuff because there's plenty of folks who die every year in the city that fell victim to their lifestyle, associates and a Jennings or Lorcin.
     
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  12. Variable

    Variable Tactical Badass Life Member

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    I told my sons the same thing when they were young, but a different twist. No matter how much they run their mouth or act tough, if you punch them hard in the face a few times they will fall down. That has been my experience.

    V
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Member

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    another case for a .22



     
  14. Lager

    Lager Active Member

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    “The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I’m just not close enough to get the job done.”

    ― George Carlin

    Same thing applies with firearms.. I want to poke a hole in that person over there..
    Now where I poke that hole determines if he falls down for good or continues to want to do me harm..
     
  15. Charlie

    Charlie Member

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    What is the problem with ball ammo? I have ten 124 grain RNFMJ 9mm Luger rounds in my pocket as I type this. Are the more modern super bullets that much better at persuading someone to stop bothering me that I should get some of that premium self defense ammo?
     
  16. JRV

    JRV Member

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    “Getting someone to stop bothering you” is solved in 99% of DGUs by just brandishing a gun. Bullet design is irrelevant. (Source: CDC study stating 350,000 - 2.5M DGUs per year, but only around 1,000-2,000 fatal defensive shootings annually on the UCR, which includes LEO DGUs).

    Round nose FMJ will deflect off round bones, including heads. I have personally seen it. It will leave a narrow wound path in soft tissue unless it tumbles, which, at pistol velocities, it’s highly unlikely to do. It’s called ice-picking, and it basically means the wound doesn’t bleed heavily, a la self-sealing foam. Tiny holes, little tearing to tissues, and tiny permanent wound tracks. An FMJ will almost certainly through-and-through with sufficient energy to harm bystanders.

    Also, target ammo does not have the same level of QC as defensive ammo. Nickeled brass cases, bonded bullet jackets, and low-flash powders are real things.

    “Modern” JHPs (I mean, Gold Dots have been around for decades) will cut through more tissue, leaving a larger wound path that bleeds much faster. They are less likely to deflect off round bones (think femurs, or the slope of a forehead). They will expand in most conditions, reducing the risk of harm to bystanders.

    You’re more likely to break bones, sever major blood vessels, and cause catastrophic organ damage with a JHP. You’re less likely to shoot through someone. There are literally no negatives other than spending a few bucks more and having to carry a decent, functioning gun. If you have to shoot someone, and you’re intent on making them stop either by their flight or their death, don’t handicap yourself.

    I have seen personally seen wound paths from both types of ammo in living and dead bodies. Spend the money on good JHPs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
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  17. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    This will serve you Well!!! Placement and Penetration are All.
     
  18. JRV

    JRV Member

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    FMJs don’t penetrate straight if there’s anything hard and slanted/sloped in their way, so they can fail even with close-to-decent placement on skulls. They also cause less trauma and bleeding with the same placement (relevant to lung shots, shots to major muscle tissues, and shots near major blood vessels). So, if you’re counting on shock and/or a blood pressure drop to debilitate an attacker, FMJs are going to be worse at inducing that type of stop.

    With all due respect to the experience of @BatteryOaksBilly, I have seen hundreds of gunshot wounds on living folks and in postmortems. There is a huge difference between an FMJ wound and a JHP wound.

    Everyone can carry what they want. People can and do carry .22s and put birdshot in home defense guns. But, if you’re preparing for an unlikely and terrible thing to happen (having to put rounds in a person), and you have a gun for which great JHP options exist, why carry something that’s marginal for the task?

    FMJ went out of vogue for LE and defensive use in the same way that typewriters, rotary phones, leaded paint, car phones, rolodexes, leaded gasoline, telephone switchboard operators, and the horse-and-buggy went out of vogue. Something much better came along, it became the new standard, and the improvements continue.
     
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  19. Variable

    Variable Tactical Badass Life Member

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    Good to hear some real world information. Thank you for posting.
     
  20. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    We all need to seek our own salvation Jim Higginbotham. I won't enumerate my qualifications. I take all anecdotal evidence and weigh it by Julian Hatcher's experiences. He gives in his book Investigation and Identifications, two examples of Handgun wounds he personally investigated. The examples are to show what Can happen. One case tow men shot each other across a 12 foot room. One shot with a 45 ACP the other with a 45 Colt. One to the head, the other to the center chest. Both up walking around when he arrived. The opposite end? A child killed at a measure 550 yards with a .22 short! His point was that anything in between can be believed.
    I personally know a ME that says of ALL the autopsies he has done, when the .22 and .44 mag are removed from the equation ALL other wound channels are indecernable.
    I know this for certain, handguns are pitiful devices for the most part. What they are is Portable. That's why I have made my life a study of them for over a half century.
    Do as You please, but as you say, in all due respect remember, the most dangerous man in the world is a man that Don't know what he Don't know. I am continuously trying to learn. So far my advice to all who come here is to use ball ammo. Their gun was made to work with it. All else has to be accomadated for.
    Most important of all is Placement and Penetration...at least from this place of learning. I shoot Every Day to get better at the craft. All of my concentration is on Placement....I choose FMJFP for my salvation. All others should seek theirs.


    Had to add this...Never choose anything pertaining to personal safety by what Law Enforcement does...Latest data we had here said LEs MISS 78% of their shots. The latest greatest HP or FMJFP is nothing more than an Air Ball seeking a available target.
    I am far concerned with hitting my intended target with Anything rather than missing it with Anything.
    Keep Shooting Folks!!!! Get better!!! There is always room to get better!!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
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  21. Steve

    Steve Member

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    This is also my take away from the few medical classes I've taken, it's about blood loss assuming you don't take out essential nerves. Someone can be wounded and keep going but when blood pressure drops to a certain point, they stop. JHP will more likely than not cause faster blood loss.


     
  22. zuerjoha

    zuerjoha I *really* like Glock 19s Supporting Member

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    Another point is that rifle rounds >>> pistol rounds but the probability of me having a pistol handy is >>> the probability of me having a rifle handy.
     
  23. Etruett

    Etruett Happy to be here Supporting Member

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    There was a bear of a guy that lived close to me in the 70's. He was constantly in trouble with the law mainly for slapping his wife around. He was in the 300 lb range and solid as a rock. Every time he got arrested it took 5-6 to get him down and cuffed and usually the cops looked worse than he did. One night he was beating his wife and someone called the cops. When the first cop arrived alone, he came out on the porch and the scared cop shot 6 times hitting him 3 with 38 Special Super Vel Ammo. I think at that time what they carried was 110gr JHP. The guy turned and walked back in the house and grabbed his wife again. By this time, she had got her gun out that a relative had just given her a day or two before. When he grabbed he, she stuck the barrel up under his chin and fired. Bullet went through his mouth, into his brain and he dropped like a sack of dirt. What was her weapon? a .25 auto. I agree 100% with @BatteryOaksBilly. Shot placement is everything. Can't swear the details of this incident are 100% accurate but it was told by an officer who was there just minutes after the first cop shot they guy. All I know is the giant died and it was determined that her shot was the kill shot. She was cleared of course.
     
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  24. ZanderMan

    ZanderMan Member

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    I’ve always been of the opinion (?) that rimfire is not to be used for self-defense. It is not reliable enough to know that it will fire on every strike. Some rimfire ammo is primed better than others, but in general... not to be trusted.

    With a well-maintained pistol, centerfire is much more reliable. (Anything to prevent light strikes or FTE’s.)

    I rely on JHP testing by reliable folks to help me decide which JHP performs the best in my short-barrel vs 5” pistols, +P, bullet weight, etc because I, personally, can’t conduct those test (ballistic gel, sides of ham, actual humans, whatever).

    I test those rounds for reliable feeding and POI in each of my SD pistols, load my mags, and stay prepared.

    Shot placement counts? Absolutely. But if the round doesn’t fire (rimfire) or the shot I place passes through or deflects (FMJ), I’ve intentionally made decisions that lessen my possibility of stopping the threat.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
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  25. georgel

    georgel Behind Every Blade of Grass Supporting Member

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    Was that the SC Highway Patrolman Coates incident?
     
  26. georgel

    georgel Behind Every Blade of Grass Supporting Member

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    Ah, FP. My primary load is the 124gr. Gold Dot, primarily because it has a proven track record. It works. I value history over theory. My secondary load is a 124gr. FP. Which I believe, from my reading tracks much better than ball, if the meplat is at least 60%.

    Not getting into a debate with anyone, just stating my choices. I'll live with them. ;)
     
  27. JRV

    JRV Member

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    Yes. The dashcam video was part of SC’s LE certification courses when I went through the academy.

    Exceptions do not prove rules, but that video is one of the reasons why I will always eschew light/fast options for a given caliber.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020