Intro To Night Vision

[surrealone]

Now, if we don’t have any empirical data, where does your stat “2-5 years” for the Echo tube come from?

The video from Harris, who certainly has a conflict of interest, is FAR from definitive.

Therefore, I challenge you to prove that it does in fact dim over time. Or more to the point, that it degrades much faster than a Harris tube. If in fact you intend to disparage a recommendation, it has to be based on something other than a competitor’s video.

I would encourage everyone to read that Arfcom thread and pay close attention to the subject of degradation of L3 tubes over time.

Regarding your first point:

• At 1:04 - we see reasonably similar comparative efficiency of output at beginning of life
• At 1:47 - we see at 400 hours of use (roughly equal to ~2 years typical operation) the efficiency of Gen2 is shown to be much dimmer than Gen3
• At 2:26 - we see at 800 hours of use (roughly equal to ~4 years typical operation) the efficiency of Gen2 is shown to be so dim as to be practically unusable (IMHO) compared to Gen3

So, that's where I get 2-5 years. Harris certainly has worked with enough Gen2 and Gen 3 tubes across its existence to know far more about them than me ... or most posting in this thread, I think. (Unless we happen to have someone here who has been a long-time employee of ITT or Harris lurking about? In which case, reveal yourself and educate/school us, please!?)

Regarding your second point about Harris having a conflict of interest: I think you're making a biased assumption, there -- perhaps because you own a product with a competing tube? I, on the other hand, have no dog in the fight, so I can be totally objective on the matter -- and I'd like to draw your attention to the date of that: Nov 2016 -- which was roughly 18 months after the May 2015 acquisition of Exelis by Harris. Looking back, my research shows Exelis produced both Gen2 and Gen3 tubes -- so by Harris pushing that vid out, it was potentially hurting itself. In fact, if you pay close attention to the URL, it ends with 'Exelis' ... suggesting that the video may, in fact, be for educational purposes between Exelis Gen2 and Harris (or possibly even Exelis?) Gen3 tubes -- because Harris was perhaps getting questions on the topic or being asked why bother go to Gen3? (Pure speculation on my part... but the URL ending with Exelis ... and the fact that Exelis was a recent acquisition for Harris ... is worth noting because it lends a LOT of context.)

Harris posting that vid didn't just differentiate Gen2 v Gen3 between its offering and others, it did so between all Gen2 and Gen3 offerings -- its own, included -- so I just don't see a conflict of interest, at all, since all customers would benefit equally from education on the difference in efficiency over lifespan between Gen2 and Gen3 -- no matter whose Gen2 or Gen3 tubes they bought. Moreover, Harris opened itself up for rebuttal .... and I can't seem to find ANY. That silence is particularly deafening if you consider it carefully and contextually.

Regarding your third point -- that's a straw man challenge that cannot be met and you know it (which is why you made it, no doubt). Proving that it's a straw man challenge is the fact that I already have a thread (linked above) wherein I asked for inputs from people who had used both Gen2 and Gen3 tubes for 400 and 800 hours who might potentially be able to confirm ... and I got *crickets*. On the plus side, lacking rebuttals from Harris competitors AND the entire rest of the NV-using community, the only data we have is what Harris put out there ... meaning nothing better. Thus, I feel it's the Harris data we have in hand that needs to be unhorsed by a meaningful rebuttal ... which has yet to come.

 

[surrealone]

Regarding your third point (cont'd):
I liken having the Harris data to having the first fuzzy images of Saturn's rings: we know it may not be perfect, but we've got SOMETHING that seems fairly reasonable. Absent anything else, it's the best we have to tell us -something- ... and like NASA with respect to Saturn images, Harris was an entity that was actually in a position to provide the kind of insights it did. Until we get clearer images OR until we get something that debunks the image with which we've been presented ... what we have ... is the best we've got.


Since challenges are being issued, I'll issue one that isn't a strawman: I challenge you to get us something empirical and more informative (i.e. a rebuttal) on the matter of efficiency differences between Gen2 and Gen3 over lifespan ... than what Harris has produced. I'd love it if you could, because I've been looking for it, myself, for months, now... and a little help would be appreciated rather than having people who own or sell Gen 2 tubes just insist they are fine merely because they want them to be. (That kind of thinking falls right into the ARFCOM post you quoted in this post within this thread, I think.)

Regarding your 4th point (suggestion to read the ARFCOM link you suggested):
I read the thread in its entirety. While interesting, it dealt with tube degradation generally (at times) ... but was specifically focused on the delta in degradation rates between filmed versus unfilmed tubes. That'ts not really germane to our conversation -- which is about the delta in degradation rates between Gen2 and Gen3 tubes. Related? Sure. But relevant? Not really. There were a few potshots taken at L3Harris which, I should remind you, is a yet again different entity from the Harris that had acquired Exelis, as L3Harris is the result of a merger between L3 Technologies and Harris Corporation (after Harris had acquired Exelis ... which was a few years after ITT spun Exelis out). Interestinly there seemed to be some Photonis fanbois there who argued that Photonis only fights back (and fights to win) on technical merits.

Does that, perhaps, explain why there has been nothing but silence as rebuttal regarding Gen2 degredation rates compared to Gen3 -- it's a no-win scenario so no rebuttal has come? (Speculation on my part, but I raise that speculation because one would think if Photonis could debunk the loss of effciency over lifespan info that Harris put out there ... on technical merit ... it would, right?)

Surreal

P.S. Keep in mind -- I'm not a fan of any particular tube. I don't have a dog in the fight. I just want to know the truth. Harris put something out there for the world as factual. No one has disputed/debunked it on a technical basis that I can find. Thus, the bird I have in the hand is what I'm forced to accept....

 

[Studentofthegun]

The white LLI cover was very disappointing; there was no appreciable difference after installing it...it simply made the green a bit less green, but green nonetheless. For reference, my 14s have an ITT Gen 3 tube

installation was simple as it screws right on the tube with no issues; pics are before install and after install. I didn’t attempt to take a pic through the 14s since there wasn’t any real difference...I was expecting a “wohoo” moment as I have never used a WP tube, but nothing.
I will reach out to LLI about this.

View attachment 311925View attachment 311926

That really sucks. I don’t understand why it looks great in the internet pics and then would not perform for you.

Havent had a chance to try the one I bought my buddy yet. But now I feel bad for telling everyone about those filters if they don’t work. I’m not affiliated with LLI but on general principle, if you send me a PM with your PayPal or Venmo ID I will send you $20.

 

[Long_Hunter]

That really sucks. I don’t understand why it looks great in the internet pics and then would not perform for you.

Havent had a chance to try the one I bought my buddy yet. But now I feel bad for telling everyone about those filters if they don’t work. I’m not affiliated with LLI but on general principle, if you send me a PM with your PayPal or Venmo ID I will send you $20.

I sent LLI an email this morning...will see what they come back with. Yes, their pics look good...and you don't owe anyone anything, their product, their responsibility.
I am going to try it again tonight and have a buddy with another 14 we are going to try it on also.

 

[Studentofthegun]

Regarding your second point about Harris having a conflict of interest: I think you're making a biased assumption, there -- perhaps because you own a product with a competing tube? I, on the other hand, have no dog in the fight, so I can be totally objective on the matter


Regarding your third point -- that's a straw man challenge that cannot be met and you know it (which is why you made it, no doubt). Proving that it's a straw man challenge is the fact that I already have a thread (linked above) wherein I asked for inputs from people who had used both Gen2 and Gen3 tubes for 400 and 800 hours who might potentially be able to confirm ... and I got *crickets*. On the plus side, lacking rebuttals from Harris competitors AND the entire rest of the NV-using community, the only data we have is what Harris put out there ... meaning nothing better. Thus, I feel it's the Harris data we have in hand that needs to be unhorsed by a meaningful rebuttal ... which has yet to come.

I'm not trying to justify my own purchase of an Echo. Nor do I have a dog in the fight either, because if you recall, I will soon get a set of duals that are definitely Gen 3. They happen to be Elbit WP HP tubes. If I'm going to be labeled a fan boy for anything, it'll be those and not an Echo tube. 😂
You have, apparently, ordered Gen 3 tubes, so how do we know you're not trying to talk down Gen 2 so that you feel better about your purchase? See what I mean? Trying to assign motives isn't a very good path to take.

Asking you for more information to back up the supposition that an Echo tube is not a good tube is not a straw man. Harris only makes Gen 3 tubes as far as I know. Sure, they had acquired Exelis, but I wonder if that acquisition meant that Exelis would no longer produce Gen 2 tubes? I think that might be the ticket to understanding why Harris would release that video. It also coincides with the influx of tubes from overseas. Now Harris has been acquired by Elbit.

As far as silence being indicative of something, it goes both ways. There are lots of people out there that own Echo tubes and have for years now. You would think that if they degraded past the point of usefulness after 800 hours of use, we would be hearing about it. Even if there was significant degradation after 400 hours, you'd think that would be all over the internet and we'd have tons of users talking about it. Do we? Not that I see. if absence of noise is a data point, well, there's one.

Here is another data point. Tim at Night Vision Devices was saying that meaningful degradation starts to occur at 10k hours for the Gen 2+ and 12k hours for Gen 3. So I find the video from Harris rather perplexing. So do several of my buddies who own various tubes. One guy I know who works for a company that makes NV accessories said he's got 20k hours on a PVS-7 and while it has degraded some, it still works very well. I'm having a hard time reconciling that with the 800 hours claimed by you based on the Harris video. If I really thought the tube went bad after 800 hours I would NOT recommend it to anyone. If it is rated for 10k hours, does that mean the thing is practically dark after, say, 2000 hours? That doesn't seem right at all.

Maybe the Harris video IS right and the tubes are no longer useful after 800 hours. That seems really hard to believe, at least for me. I'll dig as much into this as I can, and I would appreciate if you would do so as well and not simply stop with the Harris video. It might be what we have for now, but there's no way that's all there is. Just because we don't have access to it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've sent an email to Photonis and so we'll see if they write me back. Who knows if they will or won't though. I have no idea how they respond to some random person. If that video is right, and the tubes are useless after 800 hours, I have to say, I'm pretty upset with the whole dang Night Vision industry for putting out that "10k hour" claim. I mean, if they go bad in under 1000 hours the 10k hour claim is a bald faced lie and there should be some sort of class action lawsuit.

Maybe we should hire a law firm like "Dewey, Screwem, and Howe" and get paid? LOL. I'm only kinda joking. If that is true then I'll be ticked off. How are we supposed to believe anything they say if that's the case? If the 10k hours thing is bogus how do we know the figures the give us for FOM are correct? They could be feeding us a line about all sorts of stuff.

The Afrcom thread about degradation of Gen 3 tubes is relevant because the fact is, all tubes degrade. It isn't necessarily the level of the tube that dictates that, as everyone knows that unfilmed offers better performance than thin filmed. But if unfilmed tubes degrade faster than thin filmed, I would be interested to know how that compares to Gen 2+. Or maybe it doesn't. I don't know.

I'm not saying that Gen 3 tubes are bad or that the Photonis is better. The Echo fan bois that say that Gen 2+ is better than Gen 3...I don't get why they think that. I believe Gen 3 is better than Gen 2+ in very low light conditions. You're assuming that Harris is being 100 percent honest in what amounts to a marketing video. As the Arfcom thread says, and I agree...there is a lot of used car salesman level of deceit that does go on.

My goal here is to help people figure all this stuff out, not to justify a purchase. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not perfect and I'm going to get some things wrong. Those filters are probably a good example of that. But at least I'm trying and I'd appreciate it if you'd give me a little credit for undertaking this endeavor and not assuming my heart isn't in the right place.

It would be a shame to discourage people from buying a good tube based on one 3 minute marketing video. That's my biggest concern in all of this. Have you considered that you might be depriving someone of a great tube they can get in a reasonable timeframe? Is that video really enough evidence to discourage someone from getting an Echo tube?

Just like anything else, everyone will have to absorb this information and make their own judgment call. All most of us want to do is see in the dark and not get ripped off in the process.

 

[Studentofthegun]

I sent LLI an email this morning...will see what they come back with. Yes, their pics look good...and you don't owe anyone anything, their product, their responsibility.
I am going to try it again tonight and have a buddy with another 14 we are going to try it on also.

Offer to reimburse you still stands.

 

[Studentofthegun]

Since the thread is devolving anyway, we might as well debate the relative merits of Spongebob Square Wraps.

 

[Studentofthegun]

@Long_Hunter I messaged the dude via Facebook that makes the filters. He says put the filter on the other end of the tube.

 

[Long_Hunter]

@Long_Hunter I messaged the dude via Facebook that makes the filters. He says put the filter on the other end of the tube.

I’ll look at that tonight...I assumed it went over the end of the tube because of how it was threaded, but it did not come with any instructions of information.

will let you know in the morning how that works...thanks

 

[Studentofthegun]

I’ll look at that tonight...I assumed it went over the end of the tube because of how it was threaded, but it did not come with any instructions of information.

will let you know in the morning how that works...thanks

I noticed it comes with nothing. Not even a diagram website or anything. If it works I’ll add something to the previous post that explains how to use it. Cause honestly I had no idea which end it was supposed to go on.

 

[Long_Hunter]

I noticed it comes with nothing. Not even a diagram website or anything. If it works I’ll add something to the previous post that explains how to use it. Cause honestly I had no idea which end it was supposed to go on.

Ok...I just looked at this again and the filter is 30mm and perfectly attaches to the objective lens; however, it is too small to attach to the eyepiece lens, it sits on the eyepiece, but it cannot be screwed on because it is too small.

 

[Studentofthegun]

Ok...I just looked at this again and the filter is 30mm and perfectly attaches to the objective lens; however, it is too small to attach to the eyepiece lens, it sits on the eyepiece, but it cannot be screwed on because it is too small.

Well lemme ask him. Sorry. Got no idea why it wouldn’t work.

Edited to add: He messaged me back on FB and said he would help you when you reach out to him. I wasn’t sure how to get him in touch with you.

 

[Long_Hunter]

Well lemme ask him. Sorry. Got no idea why it wouldn’t work.

Edited to add: He messaged me back on FB and said he would help you when you reach out to him. I wasn’t sure how to get him in touch with you.

I am corresponding with Claude Riccoboni from LLI via email.

I dont do FB, twitter, or any other social media...CFF is it.

Thanks...will figure it out and post once I do.

 

[steelciocc]

Disappointing. Only upside may be using it as a screw in sacrificial window (the Wilcox screw ins are ~$65).

 

[Long_Hunter]

Ok, its 0315 Sunday morning...following LLI instructions and removing the eye cup retaining ring (which is threaded onto the ocular lens), the filter should thread onto the lens in place of the retaining ring; however, the LLI filter will NOT thread onto the ocular lens, it is too small, it slips in and out freely.

It does thread perfectly onto the objective lens, which apparently it is NOT supposed to be able to do.

Have not heard back from LLI since stating this.

Bottom line...the only way the product I received will attach is via the objective.

 

[Long_Hunter]

...and resolution of the issue.

My 14s, even though the tube is an ITT Pinnacle Gen 3, the ocular lens on it is made by AGM, which is 36mm...NON milspec...I guess 30mm is milspec. The objective end is milspec, no issues there...the technical side of this I won't even pretend to fully understand.

I have been using 14s since 99 and have attached all manner of devices to them, but always on the objective end (magnifiers, compass, etc...)...personally I never even realized there could be a difference in the ocular end.

Good lesson here, know the ocular lens dimension when buying.

As for LLI, they went the distance to help identify the problem, and they offered a refund, all during a weekend Saturday night into Sunday afternoon...speaks highly to the character of their business. I declined the refund, not out much...was a solid lesson learned, and they are working a prototype for the non-milspec ocular and offered to send me one to try once completed.

You can purchase from them with confidence.

 

[Studentofthegun]

...and resolution of the issue.

My 14s, even though the tube is an ITT Pinnacle Gen 3, the ocular lens on it is made by AGM, which is 36mm...NON milspec...I guess 30mm is milspec. The objective end is milspec, no issues there...the technical side of this I won't even pretend to fully understand.

I have been using 14s since 99 and have attached all manner of devices to them, but always on the objective end (magnifiers, compass, etc...)...personally I never even realized there could be a difference in the ocular end.

Good lesson here, know the ocular lens dimension when buying.

As for LLI, they went the distance to help identify the problem, and they offered a refund, all during a weekend Saturday night into Sunday afternoon...speaks highly to the character of their business. I declined the refund, not out much...was a solid lesson learned, and they are working a prototype for the non-milspec ocular and offered to send me one to try once completed.

You can purchase from them with confidence.

Thank you for the follow up. Dang, I didn’t know any of that. I’m glad that LLI did right by you though.

 

[amnesia]

Not trying to solicit sales but I thought of this thread when the holosun NV compatible came in stock.

I ordered two up for grabs but as of this morning I can get a few more. If 6 of y’all want one I’ll do a group buy.

SOLD - Holosun HE403C night vision compatible

I was able to get my hands on two of these. These will be ready to ship by end of week Retail MAP is $219.99. Members can message me for special pricing. Two important details here - NV capable and green dot. The HE403C is a solar micro reflex sight designed for day and night use...

carolinafirearmsforum.com

 

[steelciocc]

And, for those Aimpoint T1 clones, may I suggest this Midwest Industries mount: It’s a bit taller than most at 2.33 inches and it’s a lot less expensive (~$80) than the Unity FAST Mount.

Two-bolt attachment and you can use your backup irons through the little window.

Mine is rock solid!

Midwest Industries NV-Height Mount Aluminum Black Anodized Finish Fits Aimpoint T1 and T2, NV Height MI-T1-NV

Damage to screw/threads/components from failure to read instructions will VOID warranty. Non-QD Night Vision (NV) Height mount for Aimpoint T1/T2 style sights Compatible with Aimpoint T1/T2 red dots and T1 interface clones below Aimpoint T1/T2, H1/H2, Comp M5 Vortex Crossfire...

blackwolfsupply.com

 

[amnesia]

And, for those Aimpoint T1 clones, may I suggest this Midwest Industries mount: It’s a bit taller than most at 2.33 inches and it’s a lot less expensive (~$80) than the Unity FAST Mount.

Two-bolt attachment and you can use your backup irons through the little window.

Mine is rock solid!

Midwest Industries NV-Height Mount Aluminum Black Anodized Finish Fits Aimpoint T1 and T2, NV Height MI-T1-NV

Damage to screw/threads/components from failure to read instructions will VOID warranty. Non-QD Night Vision (NV) Height mount for Aimpoint T1/T2 style sights Compatible with Aimpoint T1/T2 red dots and T1 interface clones below Aimpoint T1/T2, H1/H2, Comp M5 Vortex Crossfire...

blackwolfsupply.com

View attachment 312628

I can also get these as well.

 

[steelciocc]

I can also get these as well.

Well, dang. I like the tall mount so much I just ordered a lower 1/3 from blackwolfsupply. I would certainly have bought it from you if I’d known.

I have several Daniel Defense micro mounts like this but the Midwest Industries units are just as rugged and a few bucks cheaper. They’re good to go.

 

[amnesia]

Well, dang. I like the tall mount so much I just ordered a lower 1/3 from blackwolfsupply. I would certainly have bought it from you if I’d known.

I have several Daniel Defense micro mounts like this but the Midwest Industries units are just as rugged and a few bucks cheaper. They’re good to go.

All good! I can get most brands depending so if I can price anything out just send me a message.

 

[Studentofthegun]

Heads up y’all.

There is a night vision demo (and live fire) event happening April 10th at 6pm in Ellerbe, NC. It is being put on by Steele Industries.

It is also free.

More details here.

https://steeleindustries.com/about-us/live-fire-demo/

 

[steelciocc]

Heads up y’all.

There is a night vision demo (and live fire) event happening April 10th at 6pm in Ellerbe, NC. It is being put on by Steele Industries.

Sweet, thanks!! Signed up.

 

[Studentofthegun]

Sweet, thanks!! Signed up.

Yep I did too. Really want to see a MAWL in action.

 

[surrealone]

I'm not trying to justify my own purchase of an Echo. Nor do I have a dog in the fight either, because if you recall, I will soon get a set of duals that are definitely Gen 3. They happen to be Elbit WP HP tubes. If I'm going to be labeled a fan boy for anything, it'll be those and not an Echo tube. 😂
You have, apparently, ordered Gen 3 tubes, so how do we know you're not trying to talk down Gen 2 so that you feel better about your purchase? See what I mean? Trying to assign motives isn't a very good path to take.

Asking you for more information to back up the supposition that an Echo tube is not a good tube is not a straw man. Harris only makes Gen 3 tubes as far as I know. Sure, they had acquired Exelis, but I wonder if that acquisition meant that Exelis would no longer produce Gen 2 tubes? I think that might be the ticket to understanding why Harris would release that video. It also coincides with the influx of tubes from overseas. Now Harris has been acquired by Elbit.

As far as silence being indicative of something, it goes both ways. There are lots of people out there that own Echo tubes and have for years now. You would think that if they degraded past the point of usefulness after 800 hours of use, we would be hearing about it. Even if there was significant degradation after 400 hours, you'd think that would be all over the internet and we'd have tons of users talking about it. Do we? Not that I see. if absence of noise is a data point, well, there's one.

Here is another data point. Tim at Night Vision Devices was saying that meaningful degradation starts to occur at 10k hours for the Gen 2+ and 12k hours for Gen 3. So I find the video from Harris rather perplexing. So do several of my buddies who own various tubes. One guy I know who works for a company that makes NV accessories said he's got 20k hours on a PVS-7 and while it has degraded some, it still works very well. I'm having a hard time reconciling that with the 800 hours claimed by you based on the Harris video. If I really thought the tube went bad after 800 hours I would NOT recommend it to anyone. If it is rated for 10k hours, does that mean the thing is practically dark after, say, 2000 hours? That doesn't seem right at all.

Maybe the Harris video IS right and the tubes are no longer useful after 800 hours. That seems really hard to believe, at least for me. I'll dig as much into this as I can, and I would appreciate if you would do so as well and not simply stop with the Harris video. It might be what we have for now, but there's no way that's all there is. Just because we don't have access to it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've sent an email to Photonis and so we'll see if they write me back. Who knows if they will or won't though. I have no idea how they respond to some random person. If that video is right, and the tubes are useless after 800 hours, I have to say, I'm pretty upset with the whole dang Night Vision industry for putting out that "10k hour" claim. I mean, if they go bad in under 1000 hours the 10k hour claim is a bald faced lie and there should be some sort of class action lawsuit.

Maybe we should hire a law firm like "Dewey, Screwem, and Howe" and get paid? LOL. I'm only kinda joking. If that is true then I'll be ticked off. How are we supposed to believe anything they say if that's the case? If the 10k hours thing is bogus how do we know the figures the give us for FOM are correct? They could be feeding us a line about all sorts of stuff.

The Afrcom thread about degradation of Gen 3 tubes is relevant because the fact is, all tubes degrade. It isn't necessarily the level of the tube that dictates that, as everyone knows that unfilmed offers better performance than thin filmed. But if unfilmed tubes degrade faster than thin filmed, I would be interested to know how that compares to Gen 2+. Or maybe it doesn't. I don't know.

I'm not saying that Gen 3 tubes are bad or that the Photonis is better. The Echo fan bois that say that Gen 2+ is better than Gen 3...I don't get why they think that. I believe Gen 3 is better than Gen 2+ in very low light conditions. You're assuming that Harris is being 100 percent honest in what amounts to a marketing video. As the Arfcom thread says, and I agree...there is a lot of used car salesman level of deceit that does go on.

My goal here is to help people figure all this stuff out, not to justify a purchase. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not perfect and I'm going to get some things wrong. Those filters are probably a good example of that. But at least I'm trying and I'd appreciate it if you'd give me a little credit for undertaking this endeavor and not assuming my heart isn't in the right place.

It would be a shame to discourage people from buying a good tube based on one 3 minute marketing video. That's my biggest concern in all of this. Have you considered that you might be depriving someone of a great tube they can get in a reasonable timeframe? Is that video really enough evidence to discourage someone from getting an Echo tube?

Just like anything else, everyone will have to absorb this information and make their own judgment call. All most of us want to do is see in the dark and not get ripped off in the process.

Slow to respond because work's been brutal this week and I've only bee able to pop in here and there. Good points throughout in your reply. And yes, I'm still quite skeptical of the Harris video -- which is why I started the other thread seeking confirmation of dimming on Gen2 devices. I want that corroborated before I'll fully accept it as fact. The tricky part to corroborating it is that doing so 'properly' requires 800+ hours of use of the same Gen2 tube(s) by the same person ... who also has 800+ hours of use on the same repeatedly-used Gen3 tube(s) as a control against which to compare. i.e. It's likely going to be hard to get a truly scientific comparison from someone who doesn't sell the stuff ... and, well, vendors with a selling interest yield the same sorts of questions that we have for Harris (i.e. what's their interest/angle?), don't they?

...and resolution of the issue.

My 14s, even though the tube is an ITT Pinnacle Gen 3, the ocular lens on it is made by AGM, which is 36mm...NON milspec...I guess 30mm is milspec. The objective end is milspec, no issues there...the technical side of this I won't even pretend to fully understand.

I have been using 14s since 99 and have attached all manner of devices to them, but always on the objective end (magnifiers, compass, etc...)...personally I never even realized there could be a difference in the ocular end.

Good lesson here, know the ocular lens dimension when buying.

As for LLI, they went the distance to help identify the problem, and they offered a refund, all during a weekend Saturday night into Sunday afternoon...speaks highly to the character of their business. I declined the refund, not out much...was a solid lesson learned, and they are working a prototype for the non-milspec ocular and offered to send me one to try once completed.

You can purchase from them with confidence.

Very useful info here -- both in the milspec vs/ non-milspec and in positive customer support experience from LLI. Thank you for sharing!

Heads up y’all.

There is a night vision demo (and live fire) event happening April 10th at 6pm in Ellerbe, NC. It is being put on by Steele Industries.

It is also free.

More details here.

https://steeleindustries.com/about-us/live-fire-demo/

Awesome! Sadly I have a prior commitment that weekend (I get to help a friend move -- oh joy), else I'd be joining you guys. I hope you have fun and, most of all, I hope you actually get to play with a MAWL. (I'm sort of hoping I end up knowing someone who has one so I can see it in action next to a Perst3 at some point -- just for an in-person side-by-side comparison.)

 

[Studentofthegun]

Slow to respond because work's been brutal this week and I've only bee able to pop in here and there. Good points throughout in your reply. And yes, I'm still quite skeptical of the Harris video -- which is why I started the other thread seeking confirmation of dimming on Gen2 devices. I want that corroborated before I'll fully accept it as fact. The tricky part to corroborating it is that doing so 'properly' requires 800+ hours of use of the same Gen2 tube(s) by the same person ... who also has 800+ hours of use on the same repeatedly-used Gen3 tube(s) as a control against which to compare. i.e. It's likely going to be hard to get a truly scientific comparison from someone who doesn't sell the stuff ... and, well, vendors with a selling interest yield the same sorts of questions that we have for Harris (i.e. what's their interest/angle?), don't they?



Very useful info here -- both in the milspec vs/ non-milspec and in positive customer support experience from LLI. Thank you for sharing!


Awesome! Sadly I have a prior commitment that weekend (I get to help a friend move -- oh joy), else I'd be joining you guys. I hope you have fun and, most of all, I hope you actually get to play with a MAWL. (I'm sort of hoping I end up knowing someone who has one so I can see it in action next to a Perst3 at some point -- just for an in-person side-by-side comparison.)

Well...at some point we might not need a vendor to put on a show for us to compare and contrast equipment. I mean, heck, we could have a get together with forum folks and probably have a fair amount of stuff. I could grill some hotdogs and hamburgers beforehand. Just need to figure out where to have it. Might wait a little bit until stuff people have already orders starts arriving.

Totally understand about work. Mine gets that way sometimes.

 

[Tim]

There will be another Night Ops Run-n-Gun this fall. Even if you don’t run, it’s a great time to see hear first hand.

 

[surrealone]

Well...at some point we might not need a vendor to put on a show for us to compare and contrast equipment. I mean, heck, we could have a get together with forum folks and probably have a fair amount of stuff. I could grill some hotdogs and hamburgers beforehand. Just need to figure out where to have it. Might wait a little bit until stuff people have already orders starts arriving.

Totally understand about work. Mine gets that way sometimes.

True enough if we wait for people's orders to show up! As for work -- we have 4 concurrent security audits that commenced in Feb for offerings on 3 continents ... and they're still going. I'm the security/compliance lead, so, there's not been a lot of sleep, lately. (You've noted by now I'm anal retentive about details, so go figure, I do that kind of work...)

There will be another Night Ops Run-n-Gun this fall. Even if you don’t run, it’s a great time to see hear first hand.

Excellent. With ammo prices, I don't know that I'll be gunning. Might attend, though, as long as we're not into hunting season.

 

[Tim]

Excellent. With ammo prices, I don't know that I'll be gunning. Might attend, though, as long as we're not into hunting season.

If you shot the course “clean”, it was something like 30 pistol and 27 rifle rounds.

 

[SnowRooster]

I know these are out of most people’s budget, but though it was cool seeing how the 4 tubes work together.

 

[steelciocc]

Another toy outside any sane person’s budget. This is about half-price from the original sticker and about 1/3 the price of the new model that replaced it (ECOTI).

Another ~$3K to add thermal detection to your NV

COTI @ Europtic

 

[Studentofthegun]

Another toy outside any sane person’s budget. This is about half-price from the original sticker and about 1/3 the price of the new model that replaced it (ECOTI).

Another ~$3K to add thermal detection to your NV

COTI @ Europtic


View attachment 315517

That thing is sick! Can't wait to see it in action.

 

[surrealone]

The 3k sale price is slick for the COTI. The 3 hour runtime on it is kind of weak, though.

 

[surrealone]

The Chinese version of the COTI ... but with 30 degree FOV, 640x512 resolution, and an external battery pack that takes twin rechargeable 18650 Li ion batteries for 12-16 hours of runtime.

Infiray Jerry CE5 Clip-On-Thermal Imager - Falconclaw

640x512, 12um VOx, 11.52mm lens with the external battery pack

www.falconclaw.eu

4.2k Euro is reduced by 700 Euro (down to 3.5k Euro) when you select shipping to USA -- since you don't have to pay VAT, here. However the current exchange rate is like 1.2 bucks to the Euro, so it's back up to US$4.2k once the math is done. That places this Chinese knock-off squarely between the 10+ year old COTI (with its 20 degree FOV and 2 hour runtime) now discounted to like $3.4k ... and the new $8.5k ECOTI (with its 30 degree FOV, 3.5 hour runtime, and HUD capabilities) that is sold exclusively by TNVC.

NOTE:
The Chinesium Jerry CE5 has no HUD capabilities (i.e. can't interface with ATAK/CIVTAK like the ECOTI can), but most of us aren't operating in squads and kicking in doors for a living ... and those of us who are ... would be issued appropriate gear if needed.

So what's the downside to what may seem like a whole lot of upside? Well, there's no US presence for the sale, repair, and distribution of the Jerry-C at all that I'm aware of, right now -- and the moment you bring it into the country, it becomes ITAR restricted. Thus, if you get a bad one or it has a problem, you can't ship it back to the manufacturer for repairs or replacement.

Surreal

P.S. Damn you, steelciocc, now you have me looking at clip-ons. Maybe next year.

 

[steelciocc]

Good points surrealone. I saw the Jerry-C during my research but didn’t find any way to get one into the US. These dang things (COTI, Jerry-C, ECOTI) are stupid expensive and I really couldn’t justify spending the equivalent of a PVS14, or more, on one of these. But...

I sold the eyepiece/viewer on arfcom so I’ve recovered a bit of the expense. Fingers crossed that there are no problems with the COTI because manufacturer support is likely not going to happen.

The Jerry-C does improve on some of the COTI‘s weaknesses, mainly field of view and battery life/options.

My solution to the short battery life - more batteries!!!

 

[surrealone]

Falconclaw ships to the US and from what I've read, they apparently have decent customer service. Still, ITAR is ITAR, so if one receives a bum unit, it's really between the buyer and the manufacturer to figure out how to handle it.

You are right that the cost is high, but to be fair, adding thermal overlays to night vision is just as big a game changer as the addition of night vision to the unaided eye, since it's very hard for anything to hide from thermal unless it's under water, behind glass, or shielded by some other surface thermal cannot see past/through (which night vision typically CAN see past/through). This capability may not be relevant for many; for hunters it can be invaluable.

Regarding batteries:
SureFire offers rechargeable Surefire CR123A batteries as well. While these offer less overall capacity than disposables and they cost more per cell, the rechargeable approach allows one to start with a fresh/topped-up set of cells before every night's use -- thereby reducing or eliminating the potential need for battery swaps during usage in the first place. It also means you need far fewer cells, overall. Combined with an XTAR VP2 Selectable Current Li-ion Battery Charger (as opposed to the crappy charger SureFire pairs its rechargeables with), one ends up with solid rechargeable CR123A's and a charger with decent control that can charge different types of lithium ion batteries. The cost of entry is, of course, higher this way -- but for one's money one will theoretically swap batteries less, carry a bit less weight, and end up with a device that can charge a number of other things -- not to mention that in a long term SHTF situation one can connect the charger to a 5w solar array and replenish battery power regularly ... whereas the disposables are gone once they're gone.

 

[Studentofthegun]

I suppose it is a bit late to give an after action report from the Steele Industries event but here it is anyway.

It was very informative. I think Steel showed up with about $250k worth or equipment for people to try out. All sorts of monocles and dual tube setups. A couple fellows not associated with Steele showed up with some other interesting equipment.

I got to see both civilian and full power versions of the MAWL. The C1 was amazing for a civilian product. But the issues I’m reading about regarding parasitic battery drain give me pause. Now I am a bit stumped as to what full power unit to get to fill the role. For the moment I have a mix of civi and full power stuff and that will just have to suffice for the time being.

The range was very impressive and we were able to test the lasers and illuminators at various distances up to 1200 yards.

Steele Industries is to be commended for putting on this event. There is another one happening in a month or two. I’ll do my best to keep track and post it in this forum. It was really great to get to really test things side by side. Not sure there are many opportunities to do that outside of this sort of event. Highly recommend anyone considering night vision to check it out.

 

[surrealone]

My full power Perst 3 arrived about a month ago and, while I don't yet have my binos (completion ETA between late May and mid-late June), I did get a chance to try out the Perst 3 on May 3 with my local NOD-equipped friends. They are in the process of making their illuminator/designator selections while saving for the expense and wanted to see/experience it. I needed to test it to make sure it functioned, so despite being spat on by a little rain we had another outing.

Overall, I'm very pleased with the purchase despite the pokey two months of shipment time from Ukraine (much of it spent in customs). The illuminator plants a crisp, circular outline both close up and at long range. It is 'bright' and strong enough that a man can easily be made out at 600 yards when 'lit' by it. (I would expect it can do 1000 yards just as readily, but we didn't have that much open distance to test with and my unmagnified/unaided eyesight isn't that good.) Throw the flood cap on the illuminator and it's like someone brought out the moon and stars -- just a wash of illumination whose intensity is 'just right'. What do I mean by that? Well, with the illuminator on a man-sized circle at 10-15 yards, when I pointed it at the ground at 10-15 yards and we looked at it, it was so 'bright' (even on low intensity!) that the tubes we were using would autogate. However, slap the flood cap on it and that 'bright' circle would become a very wide (well beyond the tubes' FOV) arc of IR floodlight ... and the tubes no longer needed to autogate.

The laser designator is so 'bright' I had to dial it down to the lowest intensity for close-up use. On this lowest intensity, it cuts right through the illuminator floodlight without breaking a sweat ... and even cuts through the IR circle when the flood cap is off. That brings up a a key point that made me choose the Perst3 over the MAWL -- the ability to independently dial up/down the illuminator intensity and designator intensity. Based on my research, the MAWL only gives one low/med/high choices ... and doesn't allow combinations like 'high illuminator intensity with low designator intensity' that are achievable with the Perst 3.

When reaching out to things at range, the size of the IR illuminator's circle can be adjusted by turning the illuminator lens much like on a DBAL -- which is slow but functional (just like on a DBAL). One of my buds who has tried a civvie-legal DBAL and was saving for one indicated that he now thought he would go with a Perst, instead.

The Perst 3 isn't without its problems, though. This thread details a Perst 3 which got water/condensation inside it after use in the rain. It also details that a gratis replacement was provided (despite the guy having painted his!) ... and what the guy did to solve water entry problems. It's a couple of O-rings, some synthetic grease, and about 10 mins. I've already made those same O-ring additions to mine (I used dielectric grease for good measure).

@Studentofthegun, I'd be happy to let you have a looksee sometime if you like, as I know you're somewhat local to me since you bought a handguard from a good friend of mine who lives in Raleigh a month or two back.

 

[Studentofthegun]

My full power Perst 3 arrived about a month ago and, while I don't yet have my binos (completion ETA between late May and mid-late June), I did get a chance to try out the Perst 3 on May 3 with my local NOD-equipped friends. They are in the process of making their illuminator/designator selections while saving for the expense and wanted to see/experience it. I needed to test it to make sure it functioned, so despite being spat on by a little rain we had another outing.

Overall, I'm very pleased with the purchase despite the pokey two months of shipment time from Ukraine (much of it spent in customs). The illuminator plants a crisp, circular outline both close up and at long range. It is 'bright' and strong enough that a man can easily be made out at 600 yards when 'lit' by it. (I would expect it can do 1000 yards just as readily, but we didn't have that much open distance to test with and my unmagnified/unaided eyesight isn't that good.) Throw the flood cap on the illuminator and it's like someone brought out the moon and stars -- just a wash of illumination whose intensity is 'just right'. What do I mean by that? Well, with the illuminator on a man-sized circle at 10-15 yards, when I pointed it at the ground at 10-15 yards and we looked at it, it was so 'bright' (even on low intensity!) that the tubes we were using would autogate. However, slap the flood cap on it and that 'bright' circle would become a very wide (well beyond the tubes' FOV) arc of IR floodlight ... and the tubes no longer needed to autogate.

The laser designator is so 'bright' I had to dial it down to the lowest intensity for close-up use. On this lowest intensity, it cuts right through the illuminator floodlight without breaking a sweat ... and even cuts through the IR circle when the flood cap is off. That brings up a a key point that made me choose the Perst3 over the MAWL -- the ability to independently dial up/down the illuminator intensity and designator intensity. Based on my research, the MAWL only gives one low/med/high choices ... and doesn't allow combinations like 'high illuminator intensity with low designator intensity' that are achievable with the Perst 3.

When reaching out to things at range, the size of the IR illuminator's circle can be adjusted by turning the illuminator lens much like on a DBAL -- which is slow but functional (just like on a DBAL). One of my buds who has tried a civvie-legal DBAL and was saving for one indicated that he now thought he would go with a Perst, instead.

The Perst 3 isn't without its problems, though. This thread details a Perst 3 which got water/condensation inside it after use in the rain. It also details that a gratis replacement was provided (despite the guy having painted his!) ... and what the guy did to solve water entry problems. It's a couple of O-rings, some synthetic grease, and about 10 mins. I've already made those same O-ring additions to mine (I used dielectric grease for good measure).

@Studentofthegun, I'd be happy to let you have a looksee sometime if you like, as I know you're somewhat local to me since you bought a handguard from a good friend of mine who lives in Raleigh a month or two back. (I see him every 2-3 weeks.

I think what I might do is just buy a Perst 3 because...reasons. And not sell off any of my other equipment only because it would be nice to have backups if something went wrong with it and I couldn't get it fixed.

The old "two is one and one is none" rule.