Ken Hackathorn analyzes Red Dot Sights on handguns and gives the pros and cons

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Ken Hackathorn takes a detailed look at the newest trend - the mounted red dot sight on self-defense handguns. He owns quite a few and has fired thousands of rounds with them. He is ready to give his evaluation with the pros and cons behind the red dot.

0:00 - The Red Dot Sight Trend
1:55 - Ken's Red Dot Pistols
3:45 - Pros for New Shooters
5:20 - The One Percenters
6:55 - 0-10 Yards
7:30 - The Expense
8:50 - Need to Practice
10:35 - Durability
12:10 - Enclosed Emitters
13:35 - Cool Kid Trend
15:45 - More Maintenance
16:55 - The Trend of the Future?
20:15 - Possibilities vs Probabilities
22:05 - Is it the Future?

 
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This is a solid video give it a decent A or 8.5 out of 10. While I don't agree with everything he says and a few of his conclusions and examples. Overall the information was fairly reasonable. Solid video is worth passing on and sharing especially with newer shooters. Understandably this could have easily been a 6-hour video, but he did a fair job staying on track. Would have been helpful to have some extra data or even a few others who hold opposite opinions as a balance.

I absolutely agree they aren't for everyone and there can be a steep learning curve (myself a prime example). I have noticed that in general, the majority of people shoot more accurately with a red dot in general, especially at distance. (still only one factor). Speed seems like it is always a slight concern even with training, it is worth while to test and practice and see where you are. I think for many of the family and friends we take shooting it is easier to teach new shooters with a dot and then irons, I can't think of anyone over the last year this has been untrue of personally. Also if you teach someone with a red dot first it appears to be much easier for them to transition to irons than the opposite where you teach them irons they get good and then struggle to find the dot.

Non-related going to jump off track a bit:
The entire video had me thinking of studies on how people shoot in actual gun fights with many people claiming to never see their sights. The issue being there is a really hard line of how you look at the information. What is the experience of the shooter, accuracy at X etc.. etc... Then you have a whole other group that says they absolutely see the sights and it does make a difference. Which is it? Well, its a bit of everything distance, time, circumstance, training level, experience etc...In short they are all relevant.

This was a solid video simply for the fact it sparks some questions and he lays out some points easily up for debate and personal preference with an emphasis on training. It was nice to see him talk more about training and some of the reasons not to have a red dot and why to choose simplicity. I shoot both (equally poorly šŸ˜•) on a semi-regular basis and it has taken me a while to get to a level where I'm more comfortable with a dot. That said I think there are way way better options and better-proven solutions now than when I started my red dot journey. I think while there are some major pros and cons for dots they are here to stay and continue evolving. Would have been nice for him to add in and merge this with his thoughts on WMLs.... because I have the same thoughts that while there is a ton of information on the surface to unpack the IMO the majority of it revolves around training/experience and where/ what you are comfortable with.
 
It's a good watch, he brings back some trends from history that didn't pan out which is a good reminder of what's come before and why making wild claims about the future isn't as obvious as it seems.
 
Have rds, run rds on carry and training guns. For me, idpa, practice times and scores say im better with a rds. However i shoot at least twice a month not counting matches. Just my 2 cents.
 
at 9:44 he mentioned that red dots sit 1/4ā€ than irons which takes time to get use to. I would agree except the trend has been to have lower red dots. I personally have a Holosun SCS which co-witnesses with standard iron sights. It seems now the latest generation sights have built in rear sights so I donā€™t think this is really a legitimate negative.
 
smm72 said:
Have rds, run rds on carry and training guns. For me, idpa, practice times and scores say im better with a rds. However i shoot at least twice a month not counting matches. Just my 2 cents.
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I agree-he makes the case that red dots will not help you if you donā€™t practice but the same could be said for iron sights so I think that was a disingenuous argument.
From my experience I shoot faster and more accurately with an optic regardless of range so I disagree with his assertion there as well.
 
I love Ken, but this is 110% boomer cope click-bait.

The red dot is not the future because it is the present. The whole mother-fudging industry has proved that. It's like being back in 2005 hearing how Aimpoints/Eotechs were going to be a disaster for armed forces.
 
The red dot is the best option for a sighting system, irons had a learning curve as well.
 
Maybe its just me and my bad eyes. Glasses for 53 years. I find red dots on pistols hard to pick and get on target especially in a hurry. I shot an Aimpoint back in the day and they were crap. C-more was more better but still occassionally I could not immediately find the dot and we shot every Sat at a match somewhere. ACOG on a MSR is a different story. I have no problem running that set up.
 
jimmyjames8 said:
Maybe its just me and my bad eyes. Glasses for 53 years. I find red dots on pistols hard to pick and get on target especially in a hurry. I shot an Aimpoint back in the day and they were crap. C-more was more better but still occassionally I could not immediately find the dot and we shot every Sat at a match somewhere. ACOG on a MSR is a different story. I have no problem running that set up.
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From my experience, and it is mentioned in the video, the two main difficulties transitioning to a optic on a pistol is the sight plane is 1/4ā€ higher than iron sights and you have to look at the target not the front sight.
The newer handguns and sights are designed to be co-witnessed with standard iron sights which eliminates the need to retrain yourself. I have a Holosun SCS which co-witnesses with standard Glock sights and have found this the case.
Training yourself to look at the target with both eyes open is a much more difficult. I think that experience with red dots on rifles helped me but it was a hard habit to break.
Like you my eyes are not what they use to be but once mastered you will find you will shoot better as you are focusing on a target 10-15 yards away and not a tiny front close up.
Donā€™t give up! It is worth the effort to master optics.
 
My lovely wife shoots way better with my rds pistols than she ever did with iron sights. She is not a shooter, likes to shoot steel. Hits donā€™t lie. More hits center mass at all distanceā€™s. Faster also
 
smm72 said:
My lovely wife shoots way better with my rds pistols than she ever did with iron sights. She is not a shooter, likes to shoot steel. Hits donā€™t lie. More hits center mass at all distanceā€™s. Faster also
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IDK how you can say a red dot on a handgun will not help with speed and accuracy.
I was hoping for a better, more in depth discussion from Hackathorn. As another response said ā€œ110% boomer click baitā€
 
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I'm glad red dots are available - options are good.

I strongly disagree with people who like red dots on handguns and think they should also appeal to everyone else. Different things work for different people.
 
gc70 said:
I'm glad red dots are available - options are good.

I strongly disagree with people who like red dots on handguns and think they should also appeal to everyone else. Different things work for different people.
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I have no problem with what appeals to others.
That said if an internet guntuber influencer who publishes a disjointed rant his opinions should be open to criticism.
 
keepcalmandcarryon said:
I have no problem with what appeals to others.
That said if an internet guntuber influencer who publishes a disjointed rant his opinions should be open to criticism.
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You apparently have no problem with what appeals to others as long as it does not differ from what appeals to you, in which case mentioning the differences becomes a "disjointed rant."
 
Iā€™ve got one pistol with a red dot. IMO it takes a little time and effort to ā€˜get itā€™. Once you do it is fast and easy. If youā€™re an old guy with 70 years on irons maybe it isnā€™t worth the investment. In could see where going all in on the red dots would make sense.
 
Snal~ said:
I don't own one. I'd love to have one, but I'll never have one on my EDC. Mainly because my EDC takes a beating, gets all kinds of dirty, ect. (which is why I shoot it as-is....to make sure it still works....LOL).
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Itā€™s not EDC, but may be harder on gear. Youā€™ll see a ton of RDS on pistols at Run-n-Gun, 3-Fun. Etc. we literally throw the pistols into buckets, drag them through mud and otherwise beat the crap out of ā€˜em. Much more abuse than youā€™d ever see in years of an EDC scenario.
 
I wanna be a 1%er!... and am currently taking ammo donations.
I like the dots a lot. At the focal distance of my aged eyes, the sights are a blur. At self defense distances I've no problem making a hit, as long as I don't shoot faster than my ability.
I enjoy shooting distance with a handgun. Yesterday I was popping a 10" plate at 100 yards with a dotted 9mm.

After his dissin' the fowty, Ken's dead to me.
 
gc70 said:
You apparently have no problem with what appeals to others as long as it does not differ from what appeals to you, in which case mentioning the differences becomes a "disjointed rant."
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When at 14:47 he goes off on the ā€œcool kidsā€ who carry guns ā€œpointed at their junkā€ he leaves the area of reasoned discussion and enters the rant zone.
At 8:45 he does the classic ā€bait and switchā€ where he avoids talking about red dots being easier for people with less than perfect eyesight by equating them with people who donā€™t practice. Your eyesight has nothing to do with how much you shoot!
at 22:24 he asks where is the 40S&W? implying it was a fad. well grandpaw it is #2 or 3 in popularity in the US (depending on your metric and where you get your data). So another classic rant technique of using unequal comparisons except his facts are wrong.
he does the same with Packmyer grip comparison. yeah they arenā€™t popular anymore because the pistols that are popular today donā€˜t have removable grips, not because they were a ā€œfadā€. But what is popular? Talon grips which are todays rubber grips.
 
I can never agree with everything almost anybody says. But I learned a lesson some years ago about paying attention to, if not heeding the advice of, very experienced shooters. I started shooting shotguns again after a long layoff in about 2006. I gravitated to trap, and was a frequent visitor and contributor to Trapshooters.com. One of the main contributors was a man named Neil Winston, as opinionated and abrasive as anyone who has every been on this forum. I mostly reacted to his posts with something like, "That can't be right." After a little digging I found out Neil was past Board of Directors and President of the Amateur Trapshooting Association, and had shot 619,225 registered rounds of trap. That's the equivalent of 300 rounds (100 singles, 100 handicap and 100 doubles in a registered competition) every weekend for almost 40 years. So it wasn't like he was spouting off some half-baked opinions - his knowledge was based on at least a million, if not a couple million, rounds of shotgun shooting and then from the ballistics lab he set up to study sporting shotgun performance.

I like to listen to Hackathorn, Bill Wilson and Massad Ayoob just to glean any useful information from their combined experiences, which developed some vast amounts of wisdom. I cringe every time I see Bill Wilson shoot, yanking a trigger like milking a cow, but boy can he shoot.

Anywho, that's my rant.

PS - I also like admiring Massad's hair hat.
 
yeah...there's 20ish minutes I'll never get back.

Ken may be (may have been?) a great shooter, trainer and advocate...but all I'm getting out of this video is "Kids these days!!"

He seriously called a WML capable holster a "bucket" with a look on his face like someone kicked his dog.

He kept coming back to "red dots suck because you have to train with them to get proficient..". Well, yeah. Are you suggesting you DON'T have to train with irons? Nobody is born with proficiency using any aiming mechanism.

The upthread meme of old guy yelling at the cloud is spot on for this topic.
 
Unfortunately, this isnā€™t a new phenomenon in the shooting world. If this video could have been made over a hundred years ago. You could replace red dot sights with 1911 semi-auto and irons with revolvers. Many times people cling to what they know best. Whatā€™s worked for them and what they have spent decades practicing. One thing I have learned in my shooting and training career there is always another way.
 
Gonna run my rds in a class this weekend with modern samauri. Too bad for the close strings you will need a sun dial to time, cause everyone knows that dots are slower at close distances.
Looking through my training journal my times and scores are better with dot than it was irons. I also carry with it pointed at my junk.
 
yes, there is a lot of crabby-old-man in the video.
yes, there is some real-deal important info, too.
as for me...
Red Dots are the best on my carbines.
truthfully, i switched to Green.
EDC pistols, no. not the best.
Lasers are, though. (CTC)
 
For most SD scenarios where things happen at near contact distance, who's gonna use ANY type of sight? If you can't instinctually make a center mass impact on a torso sized target at 0-5 yards, you need more training. But, Master Hackathorn seems to think that needing to train on something makes that something a 'fad', so who am I to judge?

If I need to take a shot past that 5 yards or so, or if I need to keep focus on a target without pulling the trigger, a dot is giving me an advantage.
 
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Tim said:
For most SD scenarios where things happen at near contact distance, who's gonna use ANY type of sight? If you can't instinctually make a center mass impact on a torso sized target at 0-5 yards, you need more training. But, Master Hackathorn seems to think that needing to train on something makes that something a 'fad', so who am I to judge?

If I need to take a shot past that 5 yards or so, or if I need to keep focus on a target without pulling the trigger, a dot is giving me an advantage.
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you do bring up an excellent point. In an EDC scenario you will be focusing on the threat so a sighti system that works best when you are focused on the target is a great advantage.
 
Like many other things, the utility of a red dot sight depends on how a person intends to use it.

I have guns for defense and plinking. Defense inside the home (out to 10 yards) is easily covered by a pistol without a RDS. Outside the home with my CCW, I would avoid engaging beyond 10 yards if at all possible, so again no RDS needed. Generally for anything from 10 to 100 yards, I would try to use a pistol caliber carbine that would absolutely have a red dot mounted. Beyond 100 yards, a rifle with a scope would be my preference.

If I engaged in some competitions, I would definitely want a pistol with a RDS. But I don't play those games, so I don't need a pistol-mounted RDS.

A red dot is great in the right circumstances; otherwise, it is an expensive device that may even be an impediment.
 
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gc70 said:
Outside the home with my CCW, I would avoid engaging beyond 10 yards if at all possible, so again no RDS needed.
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I hope that you would avoid engaging at any distance if you could do so safely. Unfortunately we cannot always avoid engagement safely at any distance. So I cannot say that I will never engage anything over 10 yards. Therefore a rds is beneficial in times I cannot control my environment.
gc70 said:
A red dot is great in the right circumstances; otherwise, it is an expensive device that may even be an impediment.
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How do you believe a rds is an impediment? (Real question, not trolling. You may have thought of something that Iā€™ve missed)
 
Average Joe said:
How do you believe a rds is an impediment? (Real question, not trolling. You may have thought of something that Iā€™ve missed)
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I believe all comments so far have agreed with the video that a RDS requires practice and adjustment from iron sights. I have no plans to use a RDS on a pistol and will never practice to make the necessary adjustment to use one. As such, a RDS on a pistol would be an impediment to me.
 
I'll be the first to say that while a RDS may offer advantages it takes training and practice. Especially for folks that have years and year of drawing to irons cause the presentation is just different. Also while I have learned to embrace the wobble with irons; because the rds jumps around so much it tends to make me want to snatch when the dot is on the bullseye.

Side note: The Hackathorn 2 day class one of the best I've ever taken and due to special circumstances a few of us were able to hear many great stories over late night drinks and early morning breakfast. An event that I cherish and will never forget.
 
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Icculus said:
No offense and I may be presuming too much cause I don't know you but I have a feeling that old man can out shoot you for both speed and accuracy every day and twice on sundays
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If you want to talk about red dots on pistols I would like to hear your perspective.
If you want to talk about the video in particular, sure, go ahead.
If you want to sh*t post -Iā€™m out-life is too short.
 
Icculus said:
I'll be the first to say that while a RDS may offer advantages it takes training and practice. Especially for folks that have years and year of drawing to irons cause the presentation is just different. Also while I have learned to embrace the wobble with irons; because the rds jumps around so much it tends to make me want to snatch when the dot is on the bullseye.
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?? Not even close to the first. Youā€™re sitting pretty deep on the bench the claim 1st place.

#1, youā€™re parroting the video - and thatā€™s OK. Hackathorn is a respected source. I and many others just disagree in this point.

#2, nobody is questioning the need for practice. However, the need to practice is not limited to RDS. Shooting in general is a perishable skill, whether itā€™s irons, dots, drawing, manipulating malfunctionsā€¦thereā€™s just no ā€˜gotchaā€™ on that point wrt dots.

For ME, the transition to RDS pistols was more like a couple hundred rounds over a weekend a very small amount of dry firing. I probably shoot more than most. My experience is that the transition was easy and made my shooting far more effective.
 
Icculus said:
No offense and I may be presuming too much cause I don't know you but I have a feeling that old man can out shoot you for both speed and accuracy every day and twice on sundays
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This is hilariously irrelevant šŸ¤£ No context. I'll bite since there is no context as to how the skill must be qualified. I'll pick Sunday but get to set the stages period!

Based on my shooting experience the ranges I go to and the events I attend. I would easily (like landslide) wager the average RDS shooter can shoot better scores and be more accurate overall than iron sights just as fast if not faster. It doesn't matter if you agree or disagree the issue with the above is while the numbers would be interesting there is a gap and the numbers only apply to you personally and your own performance. If you are better with one or the other it is your choice, preference. But on a scale, RDS overall is provable across the board as being better.

Ken has some relevant points and is a solid shooter no argument. Tho I would wager he'd get waxed by any number of current shooters. As I noted earlier he makes no reference to studies or any real numbers and mainly uses his personal bias. Okay sure... he still makes some reasonable points. Notice he didn't get into any real numbers or data to back up his arguments.

The market obviously disagrees. Almost every current manufacturer is producing RDS pistols. Go into any event or take notes at 3 ranges and see what everyone is carrying.
There are a number of ongoing studies proving that RDS are just as fast and many studies showing under stress they are more accurate, especially at distance. Why do you think the military is issuing pistols with red dots?

www.police1.com

Survey: How are pistol RDS performing so far?

The National Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors Association addressed the impact of red dot sights on officer-involved shootings
www.police1.com www.police1.com

lockedback.com

Results of a 4 Year Handgun Red Dot Study by Sage Dynamics | Locked Back

In short, quality modern red dots are durable, handgun mounted red dots allow the shooter's focal point to remain on target, and handgun mounted red dots drastically improve accuracy.
lockedback.com lockedback.com
 
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