Marines may drop sir/ma'am for drill instructors...

Chuckman

Chuckman

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It is kind of silly, once you get out of boot you get yelled at for calling an NCO anything other than rank followed by name, usually a variation of the "don't call me 'sir', I work for a living.". It takes some undoing.


americanmilitarynews.com

Marine Corps may drop 'ma'am' and 'sir' over gender-neutral concerns for drill instructors

The Marine Corps has been advised that its drill instructors should no longer be referred to by gendered terms like “ma’am” or “sir."
americanmilitarynews.com americanmilitarynews.com
 
It's not silly at all.

A major part of boot camp, as important as anything else taught there if not more so, is the constant reminder that the recruits are NOT civilians any more.

That they are not, in fact, subject to Mommy & Daddy and slaps on the wrist for stupid stuff. That there are real people with real power and authority over them that can literally require them to perform to the end of their lives in a very violent manner.

"Sir" and "ma'am" are a clear reminder of this fact through an obvious, and re-enforced recognition of that absolute authority.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
It's not silly at all.

A major part of boot camp, as important as anything else taught there if not more so, is the constant reminder that the recruits are NOT civilians any more.

That they are not, in fact, subject to Mommy & Daddy and slaps on the wrist for stupid stuff. That there are real people with real power and authority over them that can literally require them to perform to the end of their lives in a very violent manner.

"Sir" and "ma'am" are a clear reminder of this fact through an obvious, and re-enforced recognition of that absolute authority.
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Exactly. "Sir" and Ma'am" are appropriate because they are nobody. They are no longer civilians but they are not Privates, they are only recruits. Once they graduate and are Privates, they no longer say sir or ma'am to enlisted.

It ain't broke. What Marines do hasn't changed much over the decades - or centuries - and what they've been doing seems to work fine.
 
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RetiredUSNChief said:
It's not silly at all.

A major part of boot camp, as important as anything else taught there if not more so, is the constant reminder that the recruits are NOT civilians any more.

That they are not, in fact, subject to Mommy & Daddy and slaps on the wrist for stupid stuff. That there are real people with real power and authority over them that can literally require them to perform to the end of their lives in a very violent manner.

"Sir" and "ma'am" are a clear reminder of this fact through an obvious, and re-enforced recognition of that absolute authority.
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I did not do the 'sir' and 'ma'am' during boot, did you? I recall "yes, petty officer", "no chief."

It stops at the end of boot. I don't see that changing it from that to "yes, drill instructor" or "no, staff sergeant" will irrevocably change the course of respect they learn in boot. I have also seen deprogramming right after boot at ITS, where instructors have said "if you say 'sir' one more time, I am making you run 3 miles..."

There is stuff in boot that for sure should not be changed. I think this is low-level fruit that isn't really meaningful to establishing authority or respect. Just my opinion; I certainly respect yours.
 
Chuckman said:
I did not do the 'sir' and 'ma'am' during boot, did you? I recall "yes, petty officer", "no chief."

It stops at the end of boot. I don't see that changing it from that to "yes, drill instructor" or "no, staff sergeant" will irrevocably change the course of respect they learn in boot. I have also seen deprogramming right after boot at ITS, where instructors have said "if you say 'sir' one more time, I am making you run 3 miles..."

There is stuff in boot that for sure should not be changed. I think this is low-level fruit that isn't really meaningful to establishing authority or respect. Just my opinion; I certainly respect yours.
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Yes, I did do the "sir" and "ma'am" in boot camp (Great Lakes, December of '85).

If they wore the gold braid as drill instructors, that's exactly how they were addressed.

If people weren't wearing the gold braid, then they were addressed according to their rank. "Petty Officer", "Chief", etc.

But DIs were addressed as officers. Period.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
Yes, I did do the "sir" and "ma'am" in boot camp (Great Lakes, December of '85).

If they wore the gold braid as drill instructors, that's exactly how they were addressed.

If people weren't wearing the gold braid, then they were addressed according to their rank. "Petty Officer", "Chief", etc.

But DIs were addressed as officers. Period.
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In officer school we called DIs (because we had both Navy RDCs and Marine DIs) "sergeant instructor" I believe; Navy IDC "Chief" (because I had a chief).

In boot we did not call them 'sir/ma'am' but "petty officer whatsyourname" or "chief zazamarandabo". I don't recall gold, but a red shoulder cord, for RDCs. Towards the end we started calling them by rank/title, "MM1 Blazak" (for real one of my RDCs). 1994, also Great Lakes.
 
Chuckman said:
I did not do the 'sir' and 'ma'am' during boot, did you? I recall "yes, petty officer", "no chief."

It stops at the end of boot. I don't see that changing it from that to "yes, drill instructor" or "no, staff sergeant" will irrevocably change the course of respect they learn in boot. I have also seen deprogramming right after boot at ITS, where instructors have said "if you say 'sir' one more time, I am making you run 3 miles..."

There is stuff in boot that for sure should not be changed. I think this is low-level fruit that isn't really meaningful to establishing authority or respect. Just my opinion; I certainly respect yours.
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Marines aren’t like other branches.

Yeah they’re part of the navy. But they aren’t the navy.


Trying to make our bootcamp in line with others or bending to this stupidity would be wrong.

It didn’t take but one Cpl to tell me not to call him sir at Geiger for me to get it.

Honestly, that ass chewing was just as profound to me as graduation. It was a very real reminder that I was no longer a boot. I was a marine and I should act like it.

Marine corps boot camp works for a reason. There have been changes to it over the years but nothing drastic has been done to change the psychology of it. That’s what this is.
 
Chdamn said:
Marines aren’t like other branches.

Yeah they’re part of the navy. But they aren’t the navy.


Trying to make our bootcamp in line with others or bending to this stupidity would be wrong.

It didn’t take but one Cpl to tell me not to call him sir at Geiger for me to get it.

Honestly, that ass chewing was just as profound to me as graduation. It was a very real reminder that I was no longer a boot. I was a marine and I should act like it.

Marine corps boot camp works for a reason. There have been changes to it over the years but nothing drastic has been done to change the psychology of it. That’s what this is.
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I respect your opinion, even if I am not sure I agree with all of it. But we've had these discussions.
 
Donnie D said:
Maybe if they start referring to recruits as "a$$hole" that will make the libturds happy.
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Chdamn said:
Marines aren’t like other branches.

Yeah they’re part of the navy. But they aren’t the navy.


Trying to make our bootcamp in line with others or bending to this stupidity would be wrong.

It didn’t take but one Cpl to tell me not to call him sir at Geiger for me to get it.

Honestly, that ass chewing was just as profound to me as graduation. It was a very real reminder that I was no longer a boot. I was a marine and I should act like it.

Marine corps boot camp works for a reason. There have been changes to it over the years but nothing drastic has been done to change the psychology of it. That’s what this is.
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Absolutely.

For people to say that it, somehow, makes it easier to address people "properly" once they leave boot camp is really a slap in the face.

When people leave bit camp they should ALREADY know this because they were TRAINED for it.

All you get from people fresh out of boot camp are minor booter slipups, quickly corrected.

And corrected RESPECTFULLY, if senior enlisted are worth a crap. Like mistakenly saluting a Chief. RETURN THE SALUTE, because the salute itself is a demonstration of respect. It's pretty much a given that the young man or woman figured out in short order they were in error already when they spot the anchors.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
Absolutely.

For people to say that it, somehow, makes it easier to address people "properly" once they leave boot camp is really a slap in the face.

When people leave bit camp they should ALREADY know this because they were TRAINED for it.

All you get from people fresh out of boot camp are minor booter slipups, quickly corrected.

And corrected RESPECTFULLY, if senior enlisted are worth a crap. Like mistakenly saluting a Chief. RETURN THE SALUTE, because the salute itself is a demonstration of respect. It's pretty much a given that the young man or woman figured out in short order they were in error already when they spot the anchors.
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We can declare a modus vivende and move on...
 
Between this and the Stanford Univ recommendations I have a word that nobody has banned yet I might just use on some unsuspecting fool. They have left us no choice. I’ll post the finger prints from the slap mark when I get them.
 
Crazy Carl said:
I know the crayon eaters are a bit different, but I don't think calling them Sir could have made me respect them more or step to any more quickly than calling them Drill Sergeant. Then again, if it ain't broke, leave it the hell alone.
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I don't think it's about the title they have to call someone, it's about academia trying to change things they know little to nothing about. It's about tradition. It's about "if it aint broke..." Do they realize they train Marines to bayonet people through their chest, to blow up cities, to snipe people from 1000 yds away.....but they're worried about recruits calling someone 'Sir' or 'Ma'am'.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with eating crayons.

main-qimg-db20d303135a00a9acbe64de97de2144.jpg
 
Dan0311 said:
I don't think it's about the title they have to call someone, it's about academia trying to change things they know little to nothing about. It's about tradition. It's about "if it aint broke..." Do they realize they train Marines to bayonet people through their chest, to blow up cities, to snipe people from 1000 yds away.....but they're worried about recruits calling someone 'Sir' or 'Ma'am'.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with eating crayons.

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We good, Devil Dog 😆 Yeah, I'm with you on the whole thing. I remember as a young soldier, hearing my Nam vet NCOs hollering about, "back in my Army...!" & I'd think "just shut up you crusty old dinosaur". Fast forward about 18 years, one of my soldiers had done something particularly stupid & "G-D it, back in my Army..." & knew it was time to go. Even back in '08, before the whole kinder, gentler Army thing began striving for peak stupidity, I was a dinosaur & my kind not much appreciated by the in crowd.
 
Crazy Carl said:
We good, Devil Dog 😆 Yeah, I'm with you on the whole thing. I remember as a young soldier, hearing my Nam vet NCOs hollering about, "back in my Army...!" & I'd think "just shut up you crusty old dinosaur". Fast forward about 18 years, one of my soldiers had done something particularly stupid & "G-D it, back in my Army..." & knew it was time to go. Even back in '08, before the whole kinder, gentler Army thing began striving for peak stupidity, I was a dinosaur & my kind not much appreciated by the in crowd.
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I loved the younger Sailors who tried the "crusty old dinosaur" BS when I was an instructor on shore duty. They're SO easy to shut down on front of their peers!

ME: *to classroom clown calling me out on my age* Where are you from, Shipmate?

CLOWN: *names city/state*

M: Really? When were you born?

C: *names a year*

M: Wow! I was stationed there back then! What's your Mom's name?

C: You don't know my mom!

M: I dunno, I might. Is she blonde, 'bout this tall? (Clown is blonde, so it's a good guess...and ALL women are "'bout this tall")

C: HOW DO YOU KNOW, MAN?!?

M: Hell, kid... maybe you and I need to take a paternity test. I may owe some back child support. And it's "Chief", not "man". But if you want to call me "Daddy" after liberty goes down until the results of the paternity testing comes back, that's OK.

(Peers are merciless on class clowns who get owned in front of them.)
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
I loved the younger Sailors who tried the "crusty old dinosaur" BS when I was an instructor on shore duty. They're SO easy to shut down on front of their peers!

ME: *to classroom clown calling me out on my age* Where are you from, Shipmate?

CLOWN: *names city/state*

M: Really? When were you born?

C: *names a year*

M: Wow! I was stationed there back then! What's your Mom's name?

C: You don't know my mom!

M: I dunno, I might. Is she blonde, 'bout this tall? (Clown is blonde, so it's a good guess...and ALL women are "'bout this tall")

C: HOW DO YOU KNOW, MAN?!?

M: Hell, kid... maybe you and I need to take a paternity test. I may owe some back child support. And it's "Chief", not "man". But if you want to call me "Daddy" after liberty goes down until the results of the paternity testing comes back, that's OK.

(Peers are merciless on class clowns who get owned in front of them.)
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Used to tell my platoon before we'd go for a run, that if they were younger than 37, weighed less than 196 lbs, or smoked less than a pack 'n a half a day, it'd be in their best interest not to let me beat them back. They knew I was very much a lead by example NCO & that beating the old guy would be no easy feat.
 
I used "sir" and "ma'am" in basic way WAY back; air force 1977. Heard the "I work for a living" line; used it a couple of times.

IMHO, Dan0311 has hit the crux of the matter. A bunch of ivory-tower academic brainy dweebs with no clue about what really matters wants to impose their outside opinion onto things of which they have no comprehension.

It was an on-again off-again battle through most of my career to combat the "corporate" mindset of some people in the Air Force. The concept that we WERE a branch of the military not just guys who wore the same clothes to work. In some small way, "silly" things like saying "Don't call me Sir; I work for a living!" help drive home the idea that we are different than civilians. There is a difference between officer and enlisted; that NCO's Don't just get paid better.

Academics need to stay in their lane.

/rant
 
Car0linab0y said:
I used "sir" and "ma'am" in basic way WAY back; air force 1977. Heard the "I work for a living" line; used it a couple of times.

IMHO, Dan0311 has hit the crux of the matter. A bunch of ivory-tower academic brainy dweebs with no clue about what really matters wants to impose their outside opinion onto things of which they have no comprehension.

It was an on-again off-again battle through most of my career to combat the "corporate" mindset of some people in the Air Force. The concept that we WERE a branch of the military not just guys who wore the same clothes to work. In some small way, "silly" things like saying "Don't call me Sir; I work for a living!" help drive home the idea that we are different than civilians. There is a difference between officer and enlisted; that NCO's Don't just get paid better.

Academics need to stay in their lane.

/rant
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And don't get me started on the rounds of BS "leadership" training, my favorite (insert thick layer of sarcasm) of all being "Total Quality Leadership", a simple re-naming of the civilian corporate "Total Quality Management" training.

Totally not applicable to military life, and I made that plain to the instructor.

"Academics need to stay in their lane" ought to be a catch phrase.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
And don't get me started on the rounds of BS "leadership" training, my favorite (insert thick layer of sarcasm) of all being "Total Quality Leadership", a simple re-naming of the civilian corporate "Total Quality Management" training.

Totally not applicable to military life, and I made that plain to the instructor.

"Academics need to stay in their lane" ought to be a catch phrase.
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Leadership is learned in the field not in the classroom.

Terry
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
And don't get me started on the rounds of BS "leadership" training, my favorite (insert thick layer of sarcasm) of all being "Total Quality Leadership", a simple re-naming of the civilian corporate "Total Quality Management" training.

Totally not applicable to military life, and I made that plain to the instructor.

"Academics need to stay in their lane" ought to be a catch phrase.
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Oh, heck. Don't get me started about that stupid crap. The only good thing I can think of from that mess is that the e-9 who was a major pain in my butt as a newly assigned e-7 first Sgt decided his future was to volunteer to be the base leader in t6new TQM organization., so he moved to a different unit.

Saved me a major power test as he had more stripes but I was higher in the organization chart and his boss worked for my boss the unit CO. Things were ugly and getting worse, then he left to the tqm shop. Only time I was ever happy TQM had a presence anywhere in this plane of existence.
 
TQM/TQL has a product and process in mind. It's not really a 'leadership' thing. It's very hard to apply directly to military; square pegs, round holes.

Most of my military leadership training has been outstanding. Of course, you learn just as much in the role or from peers or mentors, but the actual training and curricula as you climb is pretty good.

RE: boot and basic, I like to look at outcomes and intent: what is the intent of a change, and what is the likely outcome? People cling to 'their version' like it's Holy Writ, but the process has been evolutionary over decades and decades and decades. Often what we are left with is a myth (we do 'x' because 'y') because it's a better story, and has nothing to do with outcomes. I am all for a better product so long as it doesn't negate or denude the mission; when it does, then don't make that change.
 
I was sitting across from the Captain of my boat, who smiled widely when I spoke up during the TQL class. Turned out he wasn't a fan of TQL at all.

INSTRUCTOR: You don't seem like you agree.

ME: I don't.

I: Why?

M: Because TQL has no place in the military.

I: What makes you say that?

M: Because we train like we fight so we will fight like we train. This isn't Star Trek where Picard calls everybody into his Ready Room to figure out what to do when the Romulans attack. I guarantee you when "Torpedo Evasion" goes out over the 1MC and a close aboard explosion happens, the LAST thing on anybody's mind during a loss of propulsion due to flooding several hundred feet below the surface while dealing with a loss of vital power buses will be "Hey, let's get everybody together and brainstorm what to do".

What your describing with TQL is closer to what we do when we're in port coordinating maintenance, repair, and training efforts. And we already KNOW the processes involved in doing that.


I was a First Class at that time, but never heard any repercussions from anybody over that. Might be because the CO was very clearly agreeing with everything I said.
 
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