Poll: Is EVERY Gun ALWAYS Loaded?

Are ALL Guns ALWAYS Loaded?


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Carry over from last night's discussion...

One of the 'sacred rules' of gun handling is "All Guns are ALWAYS Loaded". While I get the need to consider the lowest common denominator (i.e. Idiots) when setting rules, I think this rule is absolute horse doo doo.

What say you?

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The other 3 rules are explicitly about what we should do: they're not fact claims about the way the world is, they are normative claims about how we ought to act. I think that's true of the 1st rule, as well. We all know it's false that all guns are always loaded. But the rule isn't making that false claim. It's telling us we can't ever take a gun for granted. Never get careless. Always be aware that you are holding a weapon. Treat it properly. I think here about Bill Jordan who shot and killed a young colleague because he got careless with a gun and treated it like it was unloaded. Bill Jordan. We're all vulnerable to doing idiot things with guns, and rule #1 reminds us of that.
 
Eh…common sense goes a long way. Once I have personally checked the weapon to ensure it is unloaded, I know there is no chance that weapon can discharge a round. Guess there is the off-chance, though, that Bigfoot could hitch a ride on Santa’s sleigh, take a cartridge that was given to him by the Easter Bunny and deposit it into the chamber of my weapon when I’m not paying attention.

I’ve taught both my kids to always verify a weapon is unloaded should someone hand them one, even if it’s me and I’ve just checked it…not that I want them have any distrust in me, but to build in them the involuntary practice of looking into the chamber when they take control of a weapon.
 
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The wording is a bit convoluted, it was taught to me as "Treat every gun as if it were loaded". Even a bb gun hurts at close range when careless. But the concept makes sense. Obviously if no round has been chambered then the gun is not truly loaded, however, by treating every gun in the same manner when handling it we build on that concept.
 
Carry over from last night's discussion...

One of the 'sacred rules' of gun handling is "All Guns are ALWAYS Loaded". While I get the need to consider the lowest common denominator (i.e. Idiots) when setting rules, I think this rule is absolute horse doo doo.

What say you?

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I might tend to agree with you if I only had one or two guns. But I literally have random guns in most of the rooms of my house. Some of them are actually loaded and some aren't. I might go a year between touching some of them... For that reason, I treat every gun as if it's loaded. When I pick up one of my guns, I always make sure it's clear.

Also, when friends or family come to my house and want to look at some of my guns, I always clear every weapon and leave the action open before I hand it to them. Even when I already know it wasn't really loaded.

It's the safe thing to do and it sets a good precedent for my friends and family who are not as accustomed to gun handling as I am.

Maybe they'll think, "If alabamacoastie does it, I should do it too." Hopefully it'll make them safer in the future.
 
That saying is one of those dumb rules that doesn’t make sense if taken literally. Dryfire practice and a substantial amount of gunsmithing work violates the “always treat every gun as loaded” maxim.

The actual rule in practice is “assume every firearm is loaded unless manually and visually cleared.”

Once a gun is clear, it’s clear until it leaves your control.
 
No leads to complacency, which is the mother of negligence. Obviously once you've cleared it, it's inert but only takes a momentary lapse to screw up. I'd rather work from the overly cautious "it's probably loaded, let me check".

But I'll also admit to basically starting this debate and freely admit I'm OCD about where that barrel is facing.
 
“I didn’t think it was loaded“…words I hope to never hear.

Although you may be confident in your clearing regiment and your infallible memory I have no such faith and will continue to treat every firearm as if it is loaded until I have personally verified (twice) that it is not.
 
The wording is a bit convoluted, it was taught to me as "Treat every gun as if it were loaded". Even a bb gun hurts at close range when careless. But the concept makes sense. Obviously if no round has been chambered then the gun is not truly loaded, however, by treating every gun in the same manner when handling it we build on that concept.
This has always made more sense to me... It is basically saying, even if you know the firearm is unloaded, keep following Rules 2, 3 and 4!
 
It reminds me of what the instructor told us the first day of welding class. He said all metal is always hot. He knew very well that that is not true. He was impressing on us that we should treat all metal as if it were hot while working with it.

All guns are certainly not always loaded. We should, however, treat them as if they are. Do not go pulling a Baldwin and shoot somebody because you thought the gun was not loaded. Check it, double check it, triple check it, and still do not point it at anything you do not want to destroy.

I do not think the statement is silly.
 
All guns are to be considered loaded. My problem is that once Rule #1 is verified as False while handling a firearm, then why bother to follow Rules 2 and 3? Slippery slope and all of that. Bad Ju Ju. I've noticed over the past couple of years that I'm being swept more and more by gun shop employees after THEY "verify" the weapon in unloaded. I've got no clue as to what they saw or didn't see in the chamber, so as soon as it's handed to me, I'm checking for myself.

I was taught to shoot 52 years ago at the age of 12 by my uncle, a WW2 Marine combat veteran of the South Pacific Theater. The basic rules were drilled into my head and were sacred, never to be violated. I was corrected quickly and "memorably" by him if I was lax in observing the rules. Funny how what you learn from a 6'3", 220 lb Marine has a way of sticking with you throughout one's life! That man could swear for 2 minutes straight and never use the same word twice!
 
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I was taught to shoot 52 years ago at the age of 12 by my uncle, a WW2 Marine combat veteran of the South Pacific Theater. The basic rules were drilled into my head and were sacred, never to be violated. I was corrected quickly and "memorably" by him if I was lax in observing the rules. Funny how what you learn from a 6'3", 220 lb Marine has a way of sticking with you throughout one's life! That man could swear for 2 minutes straight and never use the same word twice!

Reminds me of this guy:

 
I might tend to agree with you if I only had one or two guns. But I literally have random guns in most of the rooms of my house. Some of them are actually loaded and some aren't. I might go a year between touching some of them... For that reason, I treat every gun as if it's loaded. When I pick up one of my guns, I always make sure it's clear.

Also, when friends or family come to my house and want to look at some of my guns, I always clear every weapon and leave the action open before I hand it to them. Even when I already know it wasn't really loaded.

It's the safe thing to do and it sets a good precedent for my friends and family who are not as accustomed to gun handling as I am.

Maybe they'll think, "If alabamacoastie does it, I should do it too." Hopefully it'll make them safer in the future.

Based on what you've said, I'd posit that you don't actually believe in that "rule" as it is written.

What you say sounds more to me like my preferred, "Know the condition of your weapon" or "treat every gun as if it's loaded, until you've verified it isn't" or some reasonable variation of that. The point being, if YOU have cleared it, you KNOW it's unloaded, there's no reason to continue treating it as if it were loaded.

My poll question is obviously worded like all polls, with a clear indication of my bias. But I think the analogy I used is appropriate. The gun either is or is not loaded, that's just a fact. It can't identify as loaded if it is not in fact loaded. It's not a transtrender issue.
 
That saying is one of those dumb rules that doesn’t make sense if taken literally. Dryfire practice and a substantial amount of gunsmithing work violates the “always treat every gun as loaded” maxim.

The actual rule in practice is “assume every firearm is loaded unless manually and visually cleared.”

Once a gun is clear, it’s clear until it leaves your control.
bingo
 
Based on what you've said, I'd posit that you don't actually believe in that "rule" as it is written.

What you say sounds more to me like my preferred, "Know the condition of your weapon" or "treat every gun as if it's loaded, until you've verified it isn't" or some reasonable variation of that. The point being, if YOU have cleared it, you KNOW it's unloaded, there's no reason to continue treating it as if it were loaded.

My poll question is obviously worded like all polls, with a clear indication of my bias. But I think the analogy I used is appropriate. The gun either is or is not loaded, that's just a fact. It can't identify as loaded if it is not in fact loaded. It's not a transtrender issue.
I must have misunderstood. You and I are on the same page. Guns don't load themselves...
 
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Funny how what you learn from a 6'3", 220 lb Marine has a way of sticking with you throughout one's life!
I'm a 6'4" 250# Seabee. I win.

My interpretation is therefore more valid.
 
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My issue with this is that it has more to do with the wording of the rule rather than the implementation of the rule. All firearms are to be treated as if they were loaded at all times. It doesnt mean we dont "know" that they are unloaded. We still treat them as if they are. I have an entire safe filled with unloaded firearms, but every one of them will be treated and handled as if they were hot.

Also, it is rare to find someone who hasn't been "surprised" by an unloaded firearm before. Go into most gun stores and they have a jar filled with rounds form "unloaded" firearms. It didnt happen to me, but I have been hunting before with someone and we cleared our shotguns in the field, checked them, and then packed them away and drove back to the hotel. When we went to spray them down and racked the slide back a shell popped out. Things happen.
 
Carry over from last night's discussion...

One of the 'sacred rules' of gun handling is "All Guns are ALWAYS Loaded". While I get the need to consider the lowest common denominator (i.e. Idiots) when setting rules, I think this rule is absolute horse doo doo.

What say you?

View attachment 553159

I think that people get too caught up in catch phrases and assign them literal meanings without reference to the underlying foundation they're actually based on.

"All guns are always loaded" is a reference to how all guns are to be treated and handled UNTIL personally verified by the person actually handling the firearm.

If I pick up a firearm, I handle it as if it is actually loaded UNTIL I verify it otherwise. If I hand that firearm to someone else, THEY should do the same.

Arguing semantics over this is an eye-roller for me because you can argue semantics with all three other rules as well. The gun is handled as loaded until THAT PERSON actually verifies it's not loaded. And even so, it's not to be pointed in the direction of other people who, themselves, have not physically verified for themselves that it's not loaded.

It's not a difficult concept and I'm not going to argue semantics with people over it. If they want to go overboard with it, fine. I'm all about safety, so whatever dude. If they outright poo-poo it, to the point where they obviously have no concept of the purpose of this rule, then I may point this out...and leave if it's not clarified to my satisfaction.

As for the other rules...

You absolutely CANNOT handle a firearm such that it's NEVER pointed at anything "you're not willing to destroy". I don't want to destroy my ceiling, floor, wall, appliances, etc. And yet it can be pointed at any of these things during the most cautious of handlings. There are people who appendix carry, which points their loaded carry piece in a very "delicate" orientation. People carry loaded firearms in shoulder rigs, some of which orient their carry piece horizontally. Firearms are put in and removed from drawers, which may orient their muzzles in any direction in a house through the walls.

"Always be sure of your target" is all fine and dandy, but training for self defense often involves deliberately positioning firearms in ways which do, in fact, sweep and cover non-targets. Of course, the actual meaning is to be sure of your target (and all other aspects between the muzzle and beyond the target itself) BEFORE actually shooting. But that phrase is much easier to remember than a more detailed, and lengthy, statement like "Always be sure of your target, all other people in the surrounding area which may move into the bullet's bath in front of or behind your target, objects which may deflect or ricochet the bullet when struck, dangerous mechanical equipment which may be damaged, flammable materials which could ignite by flash or spark, and that no pets or livestock may be harmed."

And, while I can't personally think of a time to put my finger on the trigger outside of actually lined up to shoot at my intended target, there are plenty of people who were not trained this way at all "back in the day". It was not, for example, part of the military's intentional training when Mom and Dad were in WWII back in the early 40s. The intent, of course, is that training this way means a finger not on the trigger won't cause a negligent discharge through poor trigger control.


Bottom line: be safe.
 
The logic and rhetoric mindset in me wants to break down the poll responders into how much actual shooting activity they do. Just as a data point, not in any derogatory way.

Do the 42% (as of now) that say "yes, all guns are always loaded" fall into the casual (maybe a hundred rounds a month?) bucket? Or are they 'serious' shooters that train and shoot regularly?
Are the 58% that say "no" competition shooters? if so, are they bullseye and bench rest or 3-Gun and Tactical Games? Formal training vs. "daddy taught me"

Serious curiosity, again, no deeper agenda intended.
 
This is like a hard/fast rule of having no debt. Can you have some "good" debt--yes. But you've entered a world of multiple variables, things that can go sideways in a hurry, and potential risk that would otherwise not be there.

It's like when I have a conversation about Dave Ramsey tactics; most people jump right onto the "well you gotta have a credit card and a mortgage...not all debt is bad." For the average idiot out there (which is most of us) we're not capable of responsibly handling the debt. o it's best to keep a hard/fast rule of having none.

Same with the guns: that one time that you were in too much of a hurry or made a wrong assumption, you'll pay dearly for the mistake. Of course an unloaded gun is not loaded. But the rule has been simplified for memory and execution. If the rule had three or four sentences to explain the difference between an actual loaded gun and the fact that one should always be in the mindset of a gun being always loaded, no one would remember it nor practice it.
 
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Same with the guns: that one time that you were in too much of a hurry or made a wrong assumption, you'll pay dearly for the mistake.

Some Devil's Advocate here...wouldn't a 'rule' that incorporates knowing the condition be preferable to one that assumes a condition?

All Guns Are Always Loaded assumes that the gun IS loaded.
Know the condition of your gun removes the assumption in favor of actively knowing.

That (knowing) seems to me to be a better standard to prevent ND.
 
I think part of the controversy is the wording of the rule from gunsite which is atypical. Most versions are “treat every gun as though it is loaded” which makes more sense and drives the behavior of always verifying for yourself it is unloaded.
It also keys in well with the other rules where you don’t point an “unloaded” firearm at someone.

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Guns are inanimate objects. If you can't see past that and judge whether or not a firearm in your possession is loaded or not, then act accordingly for dry firing for example. You probably shouldnt be handling firearms anyway.

I'd be willing to be that people of the "every gun is always loaded" camp are not going out and seeking training, shooting matches, dry firing, etc. And probably are not the best shooters.

Not trying to sound overly toxic but again, we're talking about inanimate machines and the way we handle them. The firearm safety rules are important but IME a lot of low-infomration gun owners have a tendency to apply animate characteristics to firearms.
 
If every gun is treated like its loaded and you wouldn't have people NDing in their living room. My personal favorite in my neck of the woods is people being hospitalized for shooting themselves..... on accident. It went from unheard of to a couple cases a month. Its always the same "Oh I was sure it was unloaded". Most recent case a dude shoot another dude in a gun deal. The seller got shot by his own gun on accident. Neither bone head bothered to check if it was loaded.
 
Some Devil's Advocate here...wouldn't a 'rule' that incorporates knowing the condition be preferable to one that assumes a condition?

All Guns Are Always Loaded assumes that the gun IS loaded.
Know the condition of your gun removes the assumption in favor of actively knowing.

That (knowing) seems to me to be a better standard to prevent ND.
If you think you know, you won't try to find out.

I don't see any harms that arise from assuming a gun is loaded. (ETA: I mean, when handling the firearm, I don't mean when holstering it for carry!) I can see all kinds of harms arising from folks who "know" they're holding an unloaded gun. In this case, I'd rather go with the assumption. That's how I roll. Of course, we remove the assumption by immediately checking the condition of the gun: but why would you immediately check if you know it?

As to your question of training, several hundred hours of formal training with people like Craig Douglas, Ernest Langdon, etc. Semi-regular USPSA shooter. Have pointed roped, real guns at people during a 3-day training class at TDI in Ohio. Wasn't super happy about it, but understood that it was safe and useful practice the way we did it.
 
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I remember shooting IDPA and our range was hot. All firearms were loaded all the time while we were on the range. You shot a stage, replaced the mag with a full one, put on safe (if it had one) and holstered the weapon. We never had a problem because everyone KNEW that everything was loaded. I guess that would be totally not PC today.
 
I have a lot of guns that are loaded. I treat all guns as if they were loaded. When someone hands me a gun, the first thing that I do is to check if it's loaded.
 
I have a lot of guns that are loaded. I treat all guns as if they were loaded. When someone hands me a gun, the first thing that I do is to check if it's loaded.

...and then load it if it's not.

😁
 
Some Devil's Advocate here...wouldn't a 'rule' that incorporates knowing the condition be preferable to one that assumes a condition?

All Guns Are Always Loaded assumes that the gun IS loaded.
Know the condition of your gun removes the assumption in favor of actively knowing.

That (knowing) seems to me to be a better standard to prevent ND.
To be 100% honest, I would have to admit that I do pass a certain line of saying "this gun is clear" when working on or just simply fondling a gun. I don't check it every 30 seconds or before each trigger pull after I've already cleared it. So at risk of splitting the gnat's hair even further, I'd just say that I think @keepcalmandcarryon 's post is most appropriate and more accurately reflects my set of rules: TREAT every gun AS IF loaded. NOT every gun IS loaded. Again, mindset is what we're trying to instill. Even when I KNOW a gun is unloaded, I still don't point it at anyone. I'm still treating it like it's "loaded."
 
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Around me, it's loaded until I say it's unloaded.

In the shop I have to point guns at myself patterning, laying out, molding, and just working on holsters. If someone brings a gun to me I clear it, then go on my way. BUT..... I still do my best not to sweep them with the gun. Even if I spend most of the time sweeping myself with it working on a holster. If we start doing show and tell I'll clear guns I know are unloaded before handing it to them.
 
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