And it would still cost you thousands in legal fees for the lawyer. Cost to the govt employee? $0.
Refuse to be searched?
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In all my years driving with a few tickets and Lord only knows how many DUI/license checks I have only been asked twice. The first I was in college and at Myrtle Beach and back then let them ... we know they were looking for college kid contraband. The second was north of Charlotte about 10 years back and an Iredell Co Deputy. He pulled me for crossing the center line (it was in a curve on a rural road with nobody else around and he came from the local store). I had my DL and CHP out the window before he even got to the rear of the truck. He looked in the bed as he walked by and when he realized it was a CHP he asked where it was and so on. He continued with where was coming/going etc. He realized I hadn't been drinking or such so he moved on to the "mind if I take a look ..." and I responded basically I wish he'd respect my 4th Amendment rights but if he really felt it necessary he could do so once another deputy was on site. He looked kinda funny said I could go just keep it in my lane. I thanked him and was on my way.
Now here's a little food for thought, I had my CHP and was carrying ... when I got out of the truck and it was just he and I what was he thinking about doing with me being armed? He was alone and if he was going to search he surely would not want me to be armed and he be looking in the truck?
Now here's a little food for thought, I had my CHP and was carrying ... when I got out of the truck and it was just he and I what was he thinking about doing with me being armed? He was alone and if he was going to search he surely would not want me to be armed and he be looking in the truck?
Yeah I was gonna say....what do you do? Leave after the reasonable time has passed? Or tell them "Times up, I'm leaving!"
Jeppo
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Me thinks you're watching too much Live PD!!!!
Did you catch the episode when they were looking for some guy in an apartment parking lot and found another man loading
ammo in his pistol magazine? They detain him, he had permit and they almost wet themselves
when they searched the car and found 'an assault rifle with a RED DOT' in a case inside the trunk,
the rifle was not loaded and no loaded magazine(s).
They let him go after he checked out. He was very cooperative.
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Don't know what that means. If you're saying that their searches aren't documented and I'm wrong just say so.
You obviously don't know how police get their employment reviews.
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Ima tell her you said that
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Will you have to change your screen name again?
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No. I haven't borrowed his sister yet
Lotta win in that post exchange there.
Remember if you consent and that new tablet falls out of your backpack to the pavement as the officer searches it is your problem as you consented to the search.
I've also read that it's best to leave the keys inside when you do and either hide a spare key or call someone to bring it. Now that I think about it, I could see any delays and expenses associated with this being grounds for small claims court.
T
The Swamp Fox
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I can only speak for myself and I acknowledge there are a few bad apples in LE but from my time as a police officer in a decent sized city I can tell you this
1) I have asked and been refused many times. My only response after a refusal was "drive safely"
2) We were warned many, many times that if we are asking for consent it better not look like we ask it from one ethnicity or age group more often than another. That leads to officers asking literally every person they stop for fear of being labeled as biased. Don't take the request personal just say "no I do not give consent"
3) The moment the blue lights come on your location, plates and vehicle description is given to the dispatcher and time stamped. So is a DL check and anything else like a K9 request. It's real easy to prove how long you were detained.
4)I will never consent to a search and I advise everyone I know to do the same.
5) 90% of LE does what's right and follows procedures and laws. If you encounter one that doesn't you're screwed regardless of what the SC or anyone else says. In that case your better have your camera rolling and be respectful so it plays well for the jury.
6) The most important thing to remember is attitude goes a long way and if your not screaming, swearing and acting like a jerk a traffic stop will be short and relatively painless.... Unless you're stopped by a state trooper, those guys are ruthless
1) I have asked and been refused many times. My only response after a refusal was "drive safely"
2) We were warned many, many times that if we are asking for consent it better not look like we ask it from one ethnicity or age group more often than another. That leads to officers asking literally every person they stop for fear of being labeled as biased. Don't take the request personal just say "no I do not give consent"
3) The moment the blue lights come on your location, plates and vehicle description is given to the dispatcher and time stamped. So is a DL check and anything else like a K9 request. It's real easy to prove how long you were detained.
4)I will never consent to a search and I advise everyone I know to do the same.
5) 90% of LE does what's right and follows procedures and laws. If you encounter one that doesn't you're screwed regardless of what the SC or anyone else says. In that case your better have your camera rolling and be respectful so it plays well for the jury.
6) The most important thing to remember is attitude goes a long way and if your not screaming, swearing and acting like a jerk a traffic stop will be short and relatively painless.... Unless you're stopped by a state trooper, those guys are ruthless
And here I would have thought that even you would support a non violent means thst works through your precious system to hold government agents accountable.
What was that line I think @Ikarus1 used, some of you will still carry water even when it's sewage.
I would give you a warning ticket and leave you on the side of the road beside your locked car, hoping you also locked your phone in there! And you still would think someone else was responsible for locking you out.
Well you shouldn't be going around searching people or asking to search to begin with. If there is probable cause it is one thing, but these fishing expeditions are sonething else. Like I have said elsewhere, police does not equal law enforcement. The latter, which is what is we have today, is decidedly more totalitarian.
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Swamp Fox, I would like to get some clarity here. I know how I read it, but I just want to make sure it is what you meant.
Are you actually saying that, as a police officer, it is your opinion that 10% of police officers are bad/dirty/corrupt/don't follow the rules?
Regret not having a vehicle full of contraband so you could have the opportunity to laugh at them when the case is dismissed. Wife got one dismissed for a client on this basis, I think it was the only search that hadn't consented though many claimed they hadn't til the video came out.
Personally I'd call an attorney if I felt the officer was dicking around to extend the stop and take their advice.
I've been stopped dozens of times, only ever got asked if they could search once. I was around the corner from a bank that had been robbed and matched everything about the suspect but face mask and shoes. I consented as I figured arrest and warrants for vehicle and residence I was leaving coming quickly if I didn't. I started to debate my wisdom when he pulled my face mask out from behind the seat, heart really sank when I remembered there was a pistol under the seat and informed him. Pretty sure I would've hauled me in, in the end he joked a bit, took my contact info, and told me and my buddy to get on to lunch. Was one of my better interactions with that dept.
FYI if you ever have a stop that you think the officer is out of line on make a complaint to the dept. I don't know what happens, suppose some departments may not care, but considering how pissed some local officers get about it and vent to everyone they come across something does here. Officers that get cases kicked for evidentiary/procedural reasons lose the respect of the court, their word against yours gets a whole lot more even and eventually they will be unemployed if it keeps up.
T
The Swamp Fox
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I would say that 10% don't care or don't know. As the saying goes ignorance is not an excuse. I was an FTO and held my rookies accountable even after they left my car and were no longer "rookies." Not all FTOs are like that and some quite frankly shouldn't be FTOs. I've seen guys barely on their own 2 years get voluntold to be FTOs and you essentially have rookies training rookies. Some have ego issues and can't handle being told no. My department had a no pursuit policy except for major felonies. That means minor traffic or equipment violations we weren't allowed to pursue if they didn't stop, but I know guys who did it anyway and didn't put it on the radio.
Am I saying 10% of cops are running around executing people and raping women on traffic stops? Absolutely not! But do 10% make questionable stops and searches based on either not knowing where their authority ends or not caring because most people don't report it? I think so.
I know if I ever get pulled over my camera will be running.
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Thanks for the clarification. And while I am not indicting anyone, or any group (no police related issues!) if what you describe is an accurate assessment nationwide, it does open the door to understanding what appears to be a trend of hostility toward police officers and the ensuing violence perpetrated against them. Again, not condoning, just understanding.
That's what gets me. Back in the day, like when I was growing up, it would have been unthinkable to believe one needed to do this. Granted the video technology didn't exist, but the anticipation or feeling of need to protect oneself against the cops would have been unheard of. What changed and why?
I would venture to guess that "back in the day" crap happened more often than it does now, you just didn't hear about it.
P.S.- An old retired cop told my son that when they were called out for domestic abuse, they would whip the guys ass and tell him they better not be called back out for it again. I don't think that happens now?
P.S.- An old retired cop told my son that when they were called out for domestic abuse, they would whip the guys ass and tell him they better not be called back out for it again. I don't think that happens now?
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Wow...there's a lot of "but what if..." and "wouldn't that make..." going on here.
Let's use a bit of logic here.
Law enforcement officers aren't there to find evidence that any of us is FOLLOWING the laws. They're there to find evidence we're NOT following the laws. They may be polite. They may be kind. They may be really nice people. But their JOB is "law enforcement".
If an officer makes up his/her mind that your person/property is going to be searched, then it doesn't matter whether you consent or not...it's going to be done, legal or not.
If an officer will take your refusal of consent as a reason to conduct a search, then it will happen. So, logically, whether you consent or not the search will happen.
The DIFFERENCE lies in whether you actually consented or not...refusing consent gives you a legal leg to stand on should you decide to fight this. Giving consent leaves you with no legal leg to stand on afterwards. Essentially, you've given up an important right when you give consent. That gives the state tremendous power over you.
If you never gave consent, then if the officer "finds" something, legitimately or not, the usefulness of that find will hinge a great deal upon whether or not the court finds the search itself to have been legally performed. If it wasn't...then it all gets thrown out and the state has nothing to stand on.
Remember this...with all the laws and regulations out there, there will nearly ALWAYS be SOMETHING an officer can gig you for if he/she really wants to. It all really hinges on how well the officer really knows the laws and regulations. And it really doesn't have to be anything concrete, either...it can be the suspicion of something based on what he finds. Remember that drywall job you did in the bathroom remodeling? That gypsum powder on your floorboards from hauling around drywall and supplies MIGHT be cocaine you know. Just stopped at a gas station to fill your lawnmower can? Maybe you're not transporting that in accordance with the laws and regulations. That 15 year old daughter of yours you just picked up at the swimming pool to take home? She doesn't have any ID on her because she left it at home...maybe you're engaged in some illegal underage sexual exploitation.
It doesn't matter if that powder is actually gypsum and not cocaine. It LOOKED reasonably suspicious to the officer and THAT is all it takes. It doesn't matter that the minor girl in a swimsuit in your car is ACTUALLY your daughter you just picked up. It LOOKED reasonably suspicious, especially with no ID, and that is all it takes. Those are just examples to illustrate.
Don't let your fear drive you into needlessly giving up any of your rights. In the end, that may be what you need to save you in court...or give you leverage in a law suit.
Just say no. Politely and professionally. If it happens anyway...it was gonna happen regardless.
Let's use a bit of logic here.
Law enforcement officers aren't there to find evidence that any of us is FOLLOWING the laws. They're there to find evidence we're NOT following the laws. They may be polite. They may be kind. They may be really nice people. But their JOB is "law enforcement".
If an officer makes up his/her mind that your person/property is going to be searched, then it doesn't matter whether you consent or not...it's going to be done, legal or not.
If an officer will take your refusal of consent as a reason to conduct a search, then it will happen. So, logically, whether you consent or not the search will happen.
The DIFFERENCE lies in whether you actually consented or not...refusing consent gives you a legal leg to stand on should you decide to fight this. Giving consent leaves you with no legal leg to stand on afterwards. Essentially, you've given up an important right when you give consent. That gives the state tremendous power over you.
If you never gave consent, then if the officer "finds" something, legitimately or not, the usefulness of that find will hinge a great deal upon whether or not the court finds the search itself to have been legally performed. If it wasn't...then it all gets thrown out and the state has nothing to stand on.
Remember this...with all the laws and regulations out there, there will nearly ALWAYS be SOMETHING an officer can gig you for if he/she really wants to. It all really hinges on how well the officer really knows the laws and regulations. And it really doesn't have to be anything concrete, either...it can be the suspicion of something based on what he finds. Remember that drywall job you did in the bathroom remodeling? That gypsum powder on your floorboards from hauling around drywall and supplies MIGHT be cocaine you know. Just stopped at a gas station to fill your lawnmower can? Maybe you're not transporting that in accordance with the laws and regulations. That 15 year old daughter of yours you just picked up at the swimming pool to take home? She doesn't have any ID on her because she left it at home...maybe you're engaged in some illegal underage sexual exploitation.
It doesn't matter if that powder is actually gypsum and not cocaine. It LOOKED reasonably suspicious to the officer and THAT is all it takes. It doesn't matter that the minor girl in a swimsuit in your car is ACTUALLY your daughter you just picked up. It LOOKED reasonably suspicious, especially with no ID, and that is all it takes. Those are just examples to illustrate.
Don't let your fear drive you into needlessly giving up any of your rights. In the end, that may be what you need to save you in court...or give you leverage in a law suit.
Just say no. Politely and professionally. If it happens anyway...it was gonna happen regardless.
On post? They have private security and examine every vehicle entering the property (open trunk, mirrors beneath vehicle, step out of car so we can search front, etc.). Been there many times and never saw it any other way. If you mean off on Rout 15 and the locals, that's another story.
Chuckman
Senior Member
I believe it was Route 15. This was 1990? Maybe 1991. My sister lived in Mt. Arlington at the time, I used her car to go to the pool and gym to work out.
Nothing changed. You either grew up in Mayberry or you didn't know how things worked.
I assure you that police are more accountable now than ever before in history.
OK, I have to take issue with part of this. Police have test kits to determine what that powder is and WILL NOT /CAN NOT make a charge based on their opinion of what it is. Say you are charged with cocaine and the powder turns out to be heroin, That officer would have just lost their case and soiled their reputation in front of the court.
The young girl theory is crazy too. The cop couldn't make a charge without actually knowing who the victim was and a girl riding in your car is not PC for anything.
Remember, the officer is not the final authority as to what charges you would face and they have to answer for their actions too.
Very well put Swampie. I see this all the time with rookies training rookies. Some agencies are much better than others as well. I agree that I don't think it is corruption as much as arrogance and not being properly trained to begin with. I blame a lot of it on the increase in the courts work load in general and the fact that Ada's have less time to do trials. When they had bad cases in the past the officers learned more from humiliation than from dismissals.
Some departments have told patrol officer's not to test substances in the field now due to the possibility of od from skin contact from some stuff that is out there now. I believe a cop in Ohio or somewhere recently had this happen?
T
The Swamp Fox
Guest
Test kits are not 100% accurate. When we got a positive hit and made a charge we were taught to indicate in the report the substance tested "presumptive positive" and then we would send it to the lab and have actual results by court. Many times lab testing has resulted in amended charges or them being dropped altogether. Then there are cases like this
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2017/06/27/drywall-powder-mistaken-for-cocaine/
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T
The Swamp Fox
Guest
I would never test any substance or handle something that might be evidence without putting gloves on first.
Chuckman
Senior Member
Same idea with smelling booze: "I noticed a smell not unlike that of ETOH on or about the subject."
People don't realize that in NC officers can only charge people with misdemeanor crimes by citation. Once the threshold for a felony is met officers become fact reporters to the magistrate who then issues the felony charges based on their sworn testimony. So for those officers that want to bring crap cases they often leave empty handed and with a hit to their reputation. There are only 680 ish magistrates in the entire state so they see the same officers time and time again. I have seen more reports of suspicious officer activity come from that Judicial official capacity than any other.