recreationalhandgrenade
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Going to the table IS unreasonable. Ain't nothing good at that table
Senate reaches framework for bipartisan gun control bill
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So, how's this suppose to work, when,
May 17, 2021
Breaking: Supreme Court Rules ‘Red Flag’ Gun Laws Unconstitutional
The Supreme Court ruled Monday that warrantless gun confiscation from Americans’ homes is unconstitutional, voting unanimously on the side of a Rhode Island man whose firearms were taken by law enforcement without a warrant after his wife expressed concerns that he might hurt himself.
Breaking: Supreme Court Rules 'Red Flag' Gun Laws Unconstitutional - Montana Daily Gazette
[Liz George] The Supreme Court ruled Monday that warrantless gun confiscation from Americans’ homes is unconstitutional, voting unanimously on the side of a Rhode Island man whose firearms were taken by law enforcement without a warrant after his wife expressed concerns that he might hurt...
smm72
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No (red flag)orders for known gang members,( who im sure abide by all the laws) and a very loose interpretation and process for law abiding citizens. NO THANK YOU. How about everyone; parents, law enforcement, school teachers, counselors, courts and legislators do their job.
Rhetorical question; how many people have said someone up above “ something is not right with xxxx”?
Rhetorical question; how many people have said someone up above “ something is not right with xxxx”?
So, how's this suppose to work, when,
May 17, 2021
Breaking: Supreme Court Rules ‘Red Flag’ Gun Laws Unconstitutional
The Supreme Court ruled Monday that warrantless gun confiscation from Americans’ homes is unconstitutional, voting unanimously on the side of a Rhode Island man whose firearms were taken by law enforcement without a warrant after his wife expressed concerns that he might hurt himself.
Breaking: Supreme Court Rules 'Red Flag' Gun Laws Unconstitutional - Montana Daily Gazette
[Liz George] The Supreme Court ruled Monday that warrantless gun confiscation from Americans’ homes is unconstitutional, voting unanimously on the side of a Rhode Island man whose firearms were taken by law enforcement without a warrant after his wife expressed concerns that he might hurt...
montanadailygazette.com
The publisher of the Montana Daily Gazette needs to be better informed about legal issues before slapping a misleading title on a reprint of an article (which had an accurate title) from a different source.
The problem is clearly shown by the article's click-bait title (Breaking: Supreme Court Rules ‘Red Flag’ Gun Laws Unconstitutional) being inconsistent with the lead sentence in the article ("The Supreme Court ruled Monday that warrantless gun confiscation from Americans’ homes is unconstitutional ...").
The Supreme Court opinion (Caniglia v. Strom) says warrantless gun confiscation from a home is unconstitutional. That is hugely different from claiming that "red flag" laws are unconstitutional. All red flag laws that I can find references to require a petition (by family, police, etc.) to obtain a court order to seize guns. There is your difference: warrantless (unconstitutional) is totally different from by court order (constitutional).
Page 3 of Justice Alito's concurring opinion (page 10 of the Caniglia v. Strom case PDF) specifically states that the ruling in Caniglia v. Strom does not address red flag laws:
"4. This case also implicates another body of law that petitioner glossed over: the so-called “red flag” laws that some States are now enacting. These laws enable the police to seize guns pursuant to a court order to prevent their use for suicide or the infliction of harm on innocent persons. See, e.g., Cal. Penal Code Ann. §§18125–18148 (West Cum. Supp. 2021); Fla. Stat. §790.401(4) (Cum. Supp. 2021); Mass. Gen. Laws Ann., ch. 140, §131T (2021). They typically specify the standard that must be met and the procedures that must be followed before firearms may be seized. Provisions of red flag laws may be challenged under the Fourth Amendment, and those cases may come before us. Our decision today does not address those issues."
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My apologies for not catching that.
Also,
Thank you for a well intentioned, in depth and thoughtful analysis.
Bottom line, Big Bro is setting up a bribe scheme for the states to enact so called "Protective Orders ~ Red Flag Laws."
I currently know of , hum, Normal folks that have had been arrested, fingerprinted , mug shot, ( Processed ) and Locked up over False or Out of Context Statements made by "Other~s" to the court system that have ~ had "Nothing to do with any Firearm~s period."
This happens a LOT.
I'm sure you can figure the rest out.
I have a very serious problem with red flag laws; the laws contain a process, but it is hardly adequate due process to protect someone against whom a complaint is filed.
The laws I am familiar with allow certain classes of people (i.e. relatives,police, etc.) to petition a court for what is effectively a protection order (although who is to be protected varies). However, the court acts without the presence (or representation) of the person against whom the complaint is lodged. I think the person should be in court, or be represented, before the court acts. Issuing a court order to seize property and only later (often much later) giving the person a chance to argue against the seizure is not adequate due process.
The argument is made that the immediate seizure of property is justified because the person against whom the complaint is filed is an immediate danger to themselves or others. If that is true, the person -and not their property- needs to be immediately detained and taken to court to answer to the complaint. Let the court determine through our normal adversarial process which side is credible rather than setting up a process where allegations are accepted without challenge.
Like a lot of all or nothing gun guys you absolutely miss the forest for the trees. It's not the marxist you are trying to convince you are reasonable. It's the voters and citizens on the fence. Good luck convincing them you are reasonable when you won't even go to the table to talk. At least when you walk away from the table you can present the position that you had ideas and tried but they refused to negotiate or concede. Not showing up gives the marxists complete control of the narrative. Nothing good comes from that either.
At some point we need to be able to turn this one trick pony BS against the left. It's their laser focus on nothing but guns that is causing people to continue to die. If no one is participating they have no opportunities to point that out.
Yah,
IMHO, The System is Broken ~ Broken.
One aspect ( well known ) of The Systems inadequacies is the existing laws are not enforced, period.
Other inadequacies include those in "The Loop" of fielding complaints ~ observations concerning a person that may be, or in process of, coming "Off The Rails" have been ignored ~ discounted.
However instead of making the situation better, returning it to the way it's suppose to be, another layer of Whatever is added, pick the reason~s.
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Texas GOP convention delegates boo Cornyn over bipartisan gun law talks in Washington
HOUSTON — Republican Sen. John Cornyn Friday was roundly booed at the Texas GOP Convention by delegates angry about his key role in a bipartisan Senate...
www.dallasnews.com
recreationalhandgrenade
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The guns ain't the hard sell. It's all the other gop baggage
Seriously? How is the sell going for the progressive baggage right now? Their ideas are just fabulous!
recreationalhandgrenade
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Biden isn't losing support hand over fist beacuse toy story is too gay. I don't think anyone with that opinion has done anything but vote straight ticket republican for a good long while now
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funny story: my cousin told me today that he went and saw the new buzz lightyear movie last night and it was so full of woke messaging that it was distracting
Ah, but he did see it, so the studio got his money. The real question is, will he not go to the next one?
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i can't say for sure he paid anything. he does a lot of pirating, and has one of those all-you-can-watch passes at his local theater. Odds are he's not giving them money but through his disney+ subscription
meanwhile, i'm watching really bad starwars battle for endor on his account right now, so let's not be too hasty...
Tell that to the minorities that are leaving the Dem party over a litany of their "baggage". Might just include the Disney LGBT push. But it certainly includes the disastrous effects of this economy that is the Progressive Utopia they told us they wanted. High gas prices so we give up personal vehicles or switch to EV's or public transportation. High meat prices so we stop eating so much meat. High energy prices so we conserve for global warning. They have openly said they wanted this for at least a decade. Now that it's here their own base does not like it. Unless you are rich enough to be so out of touch that you think it's a positive.
Then there's the bigger case to be made that the sorry state of this country is a result of all the cultural rot the left has pushed for decades. In many cases is seems the Rep and conservatives were right about these social issues being bad for society.
Maybe you don't like it, but being completely unmoored from social norms is not what actual freedom looks like. It's just a slavery to a different master.
"Pursuant to Paragraph 1,290, I hereby formally request third party arbitration of our dispute."
recreationalhandgrenade
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Ah yes, moral rot = bad economic policy.
Freedom is when everyone does what I say...
Following you loud and clear
On one hand, I understand what you’re saying. I view it as part of what I call winning the moral war where you are doing everything you can to avoid it before resorting to the final option of caving in skulls.
On the other hand, I see two problems. One, I doubt there are really all that many people in the middle that are up for convincing. Two, it gives the false impression that certain things are up for debate or subject to a vote, that are not. While the communists may have been successful in denying people their inherent rights in certain states, it doesn’t make it ok or justifiable (though resistance up to and including physical violence in opposition to them would be, in my not so humble opinion). This game of where they can use violence against you because they claim “law” while you must remain passive and plead is BS of the highest order. The breaking of the foundational contract and further delegitimization of the legal system, which has turned into a partisan hack has only cemented the justification of stopping them by any means necessary.
As far as the other parts, the pug party is reprehensible and the republican brand is garbage. They're still just greedy tyrants and oligarchs. The social conservatives are especially reprehensible in that they want to use govt to force their lifestyle choices on the masses and claim their belief in a deity justifies their doing so. Then there are the corporate welfare whores and the war mongers. The “conservatives” have conserved nothing and need to go sit down and shut up with their democrat buddies.
Studentofthegun
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Moral rot absolutely is bad economic policy. You don't think a lack of morals has a cost implication?
So you don't think:
Prosecuting violent crimes has a cost?
Single parent homes receiving benefits don't have a cost?
Rampant drug addiction doesn't have a cost?
Destruction of property doesn't have a cost?
Then you're wrong. The list goes on and on.
Freedom is a wonderful thing, even when some people (usually on the left) think it is frightening. Laws don't make men moral. Their upbringing and conscious choice to be a decent person, however, does.
Why do you think John Adams said:
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
Even the founders, all those years ago, understood that the people themselves must be moral in order for the system to work. Otherwise, the refrain of "there oughta be a law" will rob the populace of their freedom one small bite at a time. The intent isn't to lord over people. The idea is that people have some semblance of responsibility.
It's not that freedom is doing what some moralistic person says. It's a way of conducting oneself in a manner that does not create some sort of cost for society. Have sex with your boyfriend if you like. Nobody really cares. But if your actions start affecting other people (like costing the taxpayers) that's an issue.
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You sound kinda... libertarian. Jus' sayin'!
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Studentofthegun
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Conservative politicians? Maybe so. But it is the politician part of that phrase that contains the issue.
So conservatives have conserved nothing eh?
You can go to all sorts of small towns across America this 4th of July. You'll see kids riding on trailers pulled by 4 wheelers and tractors. You'll see American flags, baked goods for sale, and fireworks. You'll see folks on horseback. Here is what conservative values in action looks like.
They respect their elders in the community.
They keep some old traditions alive.
They honor the local veterans.
You think you'll see stuff like this in San Francisco? Having been to San Fran, I can tell you it ain't there. How about Seattle? Portland? Unlikely.
Conservatives aren't preserving things eh?
We are. Believe it or not.
Are these liberal or conservative values on display? I know these people. I know exactly where they stand. They don't want to dictate how you live your life but they do want to preserve traditions like being a good neighbor and defending the 2A.
And they bake a lot of cookies and spend more blood and treasure than you'd think making that possible.
All these things the lefties want to move here for...is it because of leftist policies? I can't put a number on the people "from up north" that come down here and want to finally own a firearm. Our taxes are lower. Our quality of life is better. That's why they want to come here. It is because we are preserving something down here worth preserving.
Good luck making us sit down and shut up.
Let's be a little more specific when it comes to the politicians --- the issue is the republican (party), what it truly represents in action versus the rhetoric it spews. The party is a three legged stool of war mongers, corporate welfare junkies, and the "religious right"; none of which is anything I see worthy of "conserving".
As a (political) movement, "conservativism" is losing. It is not a successful strategy against a degenerate force like creeping communism. I am not an expert in history, but from what of it I have read, a lot of the (social) decay issues the "leftist" places are experiencing also plagued Austria and Germany and likely other parts of Europe during the early part of the 20th century. As they say, history is rhyming.
Those things are what I would call traditional social values and part of what made communities what they were when I (and likely you - I think we're pretty close in age) grew up with. I don't equate those with "conservative" politics, but then even the terms "liberal" and "conservative" have become so twisted and warped from their meaning.
Agreed, because the forces of evil, including within what passes as the US govt. have been intentionally destroying and destabilizing them. It's part of the plan to bring down the US. Think soros and his "open society 2.0" or "civil society 2.0". These areas too are very removed from even traditional or classic liberal values. Today they called themselves "progressive", though I tend to use the term "regressive" as I feel it's more of an accurate description.
Again the issue becomes one of society versus politics as well as one of labeling. We can both point to plenty of so called "conservative" politicians (and people) who share none of those values.
Not preserving well enough, apparently.
So which is it when you say "us"? Are you part of the "They don't want to dictate how you live your life" or are you part of the "conservative" crowd that I called out that wants to use govt. to force their views, based primarily on their religion, on others?
In order for any sort of society like traditional America, to remain viable, requires a just and moral people. You and I likely agree on many, but not all, values too. On that I agree, but I don't necessarily agree with the requisites for said morality that some espouse.
Studentofthegun
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Let's not conflate everyone who calls themselves a conservative with Republicans. Most self-described conservatives are just as unhappy with the Republicans as you are.
Maybe there is a slight difference between "politics" and "values". I'm talking specifically about values. Conservative values are traditional social values. The left, at least, recognizes it to the extent that they are doing everything they can to destroy them.
Where else would they have come from? You can deny they came from Judeo-Christian values all you want. But it won't make it so.
Some things are so embedded in our hierarchies it is impossible to discount them. That's a larger discussion though.
I'm part of the "live and let live" folks which most conservatives are in agreement with. Granted, I know a few that want to pass laws that fit their moral compass and infringe upon others. However, for the vast majority, they simply want to be left alone. The left has been very successful in making people believe that every conservative wants to force their religious ideas on you by the force of law.
But if you take a look at what the left is doing, it goes FAR beyond simply fighting efforts to codify moral standards. They are fighting one's ability to even say another person is wrong. If you ask a leftist, many will say that you should not be allowed to 'misgender' a person.
You're already living in a country that has based many of its laws on conservative values. Your morality can go by whatever name you want to give it. Doesn't have to be God or Jesus or any specific deity.
But many of those values that we both agree on, whether we like it or not, are based upon religion. It is an inescapable truth. While our country was founded on the principle of freedom religion, nowhere is there a guarantee of freedom from religion. It might rankle your sensibilities to hear someone say "God bless you" or invite you to church. Or to tell you that you shouldn't shack up with some woman without being married. Or a host of other things that I've found myself in "violation" of over the years. It's been a very long time since I have attended a church service of any kind other than a funeral.
I'm probably best described as agnostic. But despite my problems with various religions, I can't deny that there are many traditional values that I love...that also stem from Christianity.
The absolute best people I have known in my life were self-described conservatives. They are not the judgmental people the left would have you believe they are.
Traditional American values are conservative values. That's a cake you can't unbake.
Let's bring this back around to my primary point though.
We have conserved much more than "nothing". Can I ask you a question? What are you doing to preserve traditional values? Be specific.
I mean, if I'm supposed to sit down and shut up, I want to know what thoughts, ideas, and efforts you're undertaking that make mine unworthy of the effort. I want to understand why I need to stop talking because your ability to reason, debate, and affect change makes my efforts superfluous. Or perhaps more to the point, how are my opinions unworthy of being espoused?
My efforts have preserved nothing? I need to 'sit down' as I've made no difference in the world? Passed nothing on?
Let's compare. Because if I need to sit down and shut up, you must really be making some headway.
@Studentofthegun let's first try to clear the air. When i said "they need to join the democrats in sitting down and shutting up" i wasn't thinking of the things you labeled conservative in your post, but rather the group that you recognized as wanting to use govt. to force their moral compass on people. This is why I used the term "lifestyle", which i used as a play on their use of the pejorative term homosexual lifestyle. To be honest, my tongue fingers may have spoken a little too sharply, but I was a little bit irritated by the godless marriage comment (not by you) a few posts back. It annoyed me because it's one of those areas that i believe the socons get wrong and it is personal to me because my marriage, which is just as important to me, isn't a covenant with their god and as such many of them have made their views of that clear.
I also agree with you that what the "left" is doing is reprehensible. It goes way beyond any concept of freedom, tolerance, liberty, etc, and is instead a perverted and bastardized use of force. It's function is to destabilize and destroy what remains of the traditional US society. I also think it's being planned and executed at a very high level. Unfortunately, there is going to be no (successfully) living with it, because no concession will ever be enough, because the excuses are not the objective, but the means.
As far as what passes for traditional values, for lack of a better term, i won't disagree that these may be shared by Judeo-Christian world view, but I'm don't believe they are necessarily the (sole) origin of them. Even the pagan doctrine of as long as ye harm none, do as thou will encompasses them. I share many of them, and would likely be considered old fashioned today, but was not raised in a Christian household.
And yes there is a giant chasm between these "conservative" values and what passes as "conservative" politics.
I also agree with you that what the "left" is doing is reprehensible. It goes way beyond any concept of freedom, tolerance, liberty, etc, and is instead a perverted and bastardized use of force. It's function is to destabilize and destroy what remains of the traditional US society. I also think it's being planned and executed at a very high level. Unfortunately, there is going to be no (successfully) living with it, because no concession will ever be enough, because the excuses are not the objective, but the means.
As far as what passes for traditional values, for lack of a better term, i won't disagree that these may be shared by Judeo-Christian world view, but I'm don't believe they are necessarily the (sole) origin of them. Even the pagan doctrine of as long as ye harm none, do as thou will encompasses them. I share many of them, and would likely be considered old fashioned today, but was not raised in a Christian household.
And yes there is a giant chasm between these "conservative" values and what passes as "conservative" politics.
Wow. Sounds kinda like progressives too. See, I don’t view a party as perfect. Particularly when occupied by the same flawed people as the rest of humanity. But the idea the left has pushed that right is bad and we are not is the same things the right has said. It’s funny watching people but it from their side.
Does it feel like the left is going to let you live and let live? The right is far closer to that position right now than the left is. And the right is not actively pushing the moral rot on society at large. That’s the left.
And it effects everything. The more centralized or national ideals are the stronger our country is. The more fractured the weaker. It’s not difficult unless you just don’t want to believe it.
Studentofthegun
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If Judeo-Christian values aren't by FAR the basis for traditional values then I can't image where else they would have come from. In fact, even when folks came over with different views, like the Celts, they ended up largely adopting some form of Christianity. And they certainly quickly adopted the fledgling culture based upon it.
For many people, the term "conservative" has a different meaning than it does for you and the mainstream media. It certainly does for me. I don't equate "conservative" with Republican politics. We live in a rather strange county. But if you were to head west a couple of hours and then start asking people what a conservative believes, you might get different answers than you'd expect.
Studentofthegun
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Actually you're wrong about that too.
Take a look at Virginia. Know why they are suddenly turning that state from blue to red? It's because they pushed their agenda too hard on the kids and parents revolted. There are more Suzie Soccermoms than you would like that gladly voted for Obama and Biden but bowed up right quick when they found out what was being foisted on their kids.
That is something the mainstream media has downplayed as much as possible. The pandemic had a very unexpected consequence for the Democrats. People got to actually see what was being taught to their kids and they don't like it.
recreationalhandgrenade
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What happened to everyone flying rebel flags?
I think this view is mistaken, it is driven by your own selections and the artificial intelligence that controls what information you consume. By the way, me too, not just you. I think it serves the media and politicians for us to think that there is a great chasm between us when the reality is that there are a meaningful number of folks milling about without firm positions on many issues.
I could certainly be wrong.
Do you mean European Celts who were Roman subjects and adopted Christianity along with the Roman Empire, or maybe Irish Catholics who attributed their late conversion to Christianity in the 5th century to St. Patrick?
Studentofthegun
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I have no clue since I meant to type something else and put Celts because I got sidetracked by an email I was writing in the middle of that post. Multi-tasking for the win! I was reading a book last week about the Celts so maybe that's how that got in there.
I've noticed that lately I struggle to remember things or insert words or phrases that don't belong. Not sure what is up with that.
I also think there are a lot of folks without firm positions, not just because they are thinking about them and conflicted about where to stand, but also because so many people just seem totally clueless about the serious issues facing our nation.
And as you noted, I also think a lot of that is because the software/media feeding them info is telling them what to think/worry about (Depp trial, transgenderism, Marvel movies), not what really matters (war with China or Russia, civilian disarmament, food inflation and potential shortages, etc.).