Stick powders for 308?

Sasquatch

Sasquatch

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I'm kind of doing this backwards- I'm looking at American Reloading who has a stick powder for 308. Sample load data is 45grains for 147, and 44 grains for 168. Trying to decipher that from Hodgdon's site puts Varget as one of the powders. Could it be Varget-like? It's MP540 which doesn't mean anything. What other stick powders are out there in this range?

americanreloading.com

MP 540 Smokeless Rifle Powder - 16 lbs

MP 540 Smokeless Rifle Powder - 16 lbs
americanreloading.com americanreloading.com
 
Never heard of Midwest Powder but 540 makes me think VV N540. Sierra pet load for 175SMK is 39.5 grs N540. I'm sure there is a N540 load for 168 SMK but Im too lazy to go look.
 
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This is NOT varget. There are plenty of extruded powders out there, just like there are tons of spherical and flake style powders. They do tend to be slower burning, but there are tons of faster burning as well like VVN110.

I'd start by finding out where the load starts compressing, then back down 6-7 grains from that, Chrono it and see what pressure signs you see, then work up (or down) from there.
 
16 pounds of powder is a lot of powder to take a chance on. Here is some info from the High Road. Google searches don't yield much else.

www.thehighroad.org

Midwest Powders? From American Reloading...

American Reloading has 3 new powders, called "Midwest Powders". The powders are listed as: MP 530, which is "similar to CFE-223" MP 275, which is...
www.thehighroad.org www.thehighroad.org
 
While I think they may be "good" powders (as in quality) and you may be able to develop decent loads with them, my issue is ongoing availabilty and quality control. If you intend for the 16lbs to be a lifetime supply and you have the time to work up a good load, then great, go for it. But, if you think you'll buy some more, you'll likely have to start load development all over again. Because, I doubt the next batch with be the same. This is how you treat bulk pull down powders anyway.
 
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some other stuff

308 20" Howa
COL 2.82” 150g Hornady 3037
45.2g 2689 2665 2667 2698 2722 2672 2676 2676 2674 2689 2652 2680 2683 2646 2629 = 2674fps avg

30-06 1903a3
49 LRM 2797 2784 2812 2802 = 2799fps avg ES 28
Need a bigger test but looks to be pretty consistent

303 No4Mk1 with .308 Hornady bullets not .311. I ran out of the .311 =(. The barrel is pretty crisp so that's probably why it shoots them fine with small groups.
44 2572 2616 2612 2593 = 2598fps avg
Again need a bigger test but seemed almost identical to IMR4320

(From another site)
Finally got a response from American Reloading.

"We have plenty of the MP 540 so we will make sure you get some. It will burn around 104-110 on the chart and it is a consistent stick powder. We are getting more data but for now it should be great for heavier grain bullets in 308.

We can't call it "similar to" just yet but when we get that approval we will!"

Here is the reply I received to my last email asking which burn rate chart they were using.

"Yes its bases on the first one. Between W748 and W760"

Here is the chart he referred to as the first one.
MP-540 Chart-Comparison.jpg
 
As far as stick powders its' IMR4895 / IMR4064 for My 7.62 / 308 and also
IMR8208, never a problem, they all shoot great, Ditched Varget long ago,
out of stock too often..so it had to go..
WC-846 / 846T for my "ball / tracer loads" in 7.62

-Snoopz
 
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Well, I ordered it. It's $22.50/#, free shipping. I don't know if we'll ever see powder at that price again. And yes, I plan on building a pet load for 308 and using it a long time. The VV540 theory is interesting, as that's the 110 on the burn chart they provided. I will be very careful with it because the blc-2-like powder I got a couple of years ago was much faster than the anticipated load.

I made some good loads with WC846 and WC844 as well @Snoopz . I wish I had bought more, haven't seen it in a while.
 
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I
Sasquatch said:
I'm kind of doing this backwards- I'm looking at American Reloading who has a stick powder for 308. Sample load data is 45grains for 147, and 44 grains for 168. Trying to decipher that from Hodgdon's site puts Varget as one of the powders. Could it be Varget-like? It's MP540 which doesn't mean anything. What other stick powders are out there in this range?

americanreloading.com

MP 540 Smokeless Rifle Powder - 16 lbs

MP 540 Smokeless Rifle Powder - 16 lbs
americanreloading.com americanreloading.com
Click to expand...

That looks like a max charge..... reduce it some before trying. It could be similar to Varget, but you don't really know until you try it.

Below are some 308 Winchester Stick powders that have worked for me in the past. I typically use 168-175 grain projectiles.

IMR 4064 - seemed to be temperature sensitive thought
Reloader 15
Varget of course
4895
 
a snippet:

Originally 7.62x51 was developed by Winchester using WC-846 which was a version of old Ball C powder. Winchester was hoping to get an exclusive contract but Dupont (Remington) still had friends and connections in the military and in politics. This gave Remington half the ammunition contract. The original "approved" powders were WC-846 and Dupont IMR-4895 in M-59 ball ammunition but Winchester ended up producing most of the M-59 ball and Remington got M-61 armor piercing ammunition. Dupont / Remington used a short grain version of IMR-3031 called IMR-4475. The IMR-4895 approval was a quick fix to get Dupont / Remington in the contract but it was the 30-06 powder and was mostly in the M-852 and M-118 ammunition. The short cut IMR-4475 was Dupont / Remington's answer to easy machine loading Winchester ball powder. Both M-59 and M-61 ammunition used steel core bullets. I remember when M-80 ball replaced M-59 as the standard ball round.

During WWII Dupont / Remington received a lot of contracts for rifle powder and was preferred due to it being low flash and political connections. After WWII the US military saw how far advanced the German weapons were and wanted to update the US arms. Congress wasn't keen on spending any money on the military after the was and the downsizing of the military.

Winchester had lost a lot of contracts to Dupont and wanted to improve their contracts. They presented the US military with their ball powder that burned cooler and could nearly match military 30-06 in the 300 Savage cartridge. During the war copper and lead were in short supply. 7.62x51 was developed from 300 Savage, not down from 30-06. Big selling points were a "smaller" case than 30-06 using less copper and originally developed with steel core bullets instead of lead.

The Cold War was gearing up and the US military had a cartridge that used less copper and lead to present to Congress but it "needed" new weapons. This lead to the M-14 and M-60.

Dupont still had many friends and contacts in the military and in politics. This is how Dupont / Remington sneaked in to the 7.62x51 contracts and split them with Winchester.

Winchester WC-846 powder was not flash retardant and this lead to the long flash hiders on the M-14, M-60 and other 7.62 weapons.

Other than M-852 and M-118 the use of IMR-4895 is not so common in 7.62x51. Remington loaded 7.62x51 usually is loaded with IMR-4475 and later IMR-8208M was used. The IMR-4895 loaded M-59 ball ammunition was a short term stop gap until IMR-4475 was developed especially for 7.62x51. IMR-8208M is an "improvement" on IMR-4475.

IMR-4895 was developed in 1941 but was not used for all 30-06 ammunition until 1944. During the Korean War Winchester did load some 30-06 for the military with ball powder but this ammunition caused some problems, so Winchester had to work a bit to get back some military contracts later.


-Snoopz
 
BowWow said:
I


That looks like a max charge..... reduce it some before trying. It could be similar to Varget, but you don't really know until you try it.

Below are some 308 Winchester Stick powders that have worked for me in the past. I typically use 168-175 grain projectiles.

IMR 4064 - seemed to be temperature sensitive thought
Reloader 15
Varget of course
4895
Click to expand...
4064 / 8208 are my goto powders for my target / match loads, 4064 in the Match M1A's
4895 in my "ball" loads plinking loads
Bullets are Berger's / Sierra's 155gr-175gr.

some reading.. by Glen Zediker


-Snoopz
 
The MP540 arrived. Grains look a lot like 3031 above.

One thing that's sketchy is that the load data they had on the website and what is on the bottle is different. Not huge, but not comforting either. The website says 44 grains for 168 grains, while the bottle says 45. What stands out is that it also says 45 for the 147 grain. I will definitely start low.

1654290570082.png

(this bad pic is from their website, but it matches the bottles I have)
 
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Sasquatch said:
The MP540 arrived. Grains look a lot like 3031 above.

One thing that's sketchy is that the load data they had on the website and what is on the bottle is different. Not huge, but not comforting either. The website says 44 grains for 168 grains, while the bottle says 45. What stands out is that it also says 45 for the 147 grain. I will definitely start low.

View attachment 481339

(this bad pic is from their website, but it matches the bottles I have)
Click to expand...
Good decision...Would do the same here...keeping good records a plus, wonder what the lot to lot variations are.
Would use a drop tube also, don't know where I would start, probably in the 41gr territory maybe 40gr load 5 each
probably .5 increments or .3 increments, using the OCW method (spreadsheet) cause I have loads in the 40.5-42.5
area with 168gr Sierras / Bergers, LC NM brass / Federal Nickel Match, Lapua brass. IMR-4064

-Snoopz
 
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I wrote a macro to create OCW loads, and yeah, started low for starting, looking for pressure signs, then a standard ocw load after that. (I'm not testing in an AR10, didn't change it from the default)

1654303775090.png
 
Sasquatch said:
I wrote a macro to create OCW loads, and yeah, started low for starting, looking for pressure signs, then a standard ocw load after that. (I'm not testing in an AR10, didn't change it from the default)

View attachment 481430
Click to expand...
You share??? can do any format excel extension.. if you share (thanks)
Yeah was wondering what you were gonna use as the test bed firearm. In 308 have some many
different platforms / barrel combos, just trying to keep the data separate, different "sheets" is
a task to say the least..don't own a AR10 platform. would like to see what you work up.

-Snoopz
 
Snoopz said:
Good decision...Would do the same here...keeping good records a plus, wonder what the lot to lot variations are.
Would use a drop tube also, don't know where I would start, probably in the 41gr territory maybe 40gr load 5 each
probably .5 increments or .3 increments, using the OCW method (spreadsheet) cause I have loads in the 40.5-42.5
area with 168gr Sierras / Bergers, LC NM brass / Federal Nickel Match, Lapua brass. IMR-4064

-Snoopz
Click to expand...
Ok, I'm very happy with MP540 so far. It seems closest to 8208, and I'm developing loads from 125 grains to 180 grains in my 308s and have achieved 0.47 MOA in one) and getting close to MOA in some of the others, except the 125 sinterfire which doesn't seem to group well no matter what I shoot it in.

After I get these 4 done, I'll move to .223
 
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