Supreme Court Turns Away Challenge To Bump Stock Ban

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The Supreme Court denied review of a case challenging the ATF’s ban on bump stocks Monday morning, leaving the rule that bans the continued possession of the items in place.

The case, known as Guedes v BATFE, hinged on whether or not the BATFE actually had the authority to retroactively ban bump stocks, which the agency had previously approved, or whether Congress needed to actually write a law banning the devices. As the Cato Institute noted last year, the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals determined that the the agency was within its authority to enact the retroactive ban.


Instead of analyzing whether the administration was correct in determining that the term “machinegun” includes bump stocks, however, the court simply deferred to the administration’s interpretation. This was an example of the controversial doctrine of “Chevron deference,” in which courts defer to an administrative agency’s permissible interpretation of a statutory term if the term is ambiguous.

Because of Chevron deference, the law often means whatever the current administration decides it should mean. And while the Supreme Court has told lower courts not to apply the doctrine to criminal laws, there is a grey area for laws like this that have both criminal and civil sides. So, even after both the challengers of the law and the administration asked the court not to apply Chevron deference, the D.C. Circuit did it anyways.

According to Amy Howe of SCOTUSblog, Justice Neil Gorsuch addressed the Chevron deference argument in a statement.

If you’re a non-lawyer like me, you probably had to look up the phrase “interlocutory petition” to find out exactly what Gorsuch meant. Gorsuch was arguing that the matter could still be reviewed in future cases even if the court decided not to hear this case, and in fact there are other challenges to the BAFTE’s bump stock ban still in the lower courts.

The 10th Circuit Court of Appeals is currently considering the case Aposhian v Barr, which raises similar questions and challenges to the BAFTE’s administrative action, and while the Supreme Court’s decision to pass on hearing a challenge to the bump stock ban probably doesn’t help the Aposhian case in the court of appeals, gun owners and those hoping to restore some limits to the rule-making authority of government agencies will get at least one more crack at SCOTUS once the 10th Circuit issues its decision.

Link to Article.
 
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Good thing everyone voted for the non-2A friendly liberal New Yorker because of the Supreme Court picks......

More actual infringements on the 2nd than the Obama administration....
 
Because of Chevron deference, the law often means whatever the current administration decides it should mean.


This is why we desperately need to adopt the nondelegation principle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondelegation_doctrine

Essentially, Congress has to stop abdicating it's responsibility to write laws and stop having the Executive make stuff up as they go.

Every elementary school kid knows that (in theory)...

Congress writes laws
Executive administers
Judicial judicifies

"Agencies" and their "regulations" should not have force of law.
 
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That’s actually a decent write-up. There’s a sad amount of teeth-gnashing and clothes-tearing going on elsewhere online by people that don’t understand how appellate procedure works, the difference between interlocutory orders and final orders, or the difference between injunctions and final rulings.

SCOTUS is supposed to be a Court of final appeal, and the last thing they are supposed to do, even when it would be favorable to gun owners from a policy perspective, is insert themselves into issues as political activists.

Your Congress-critters and Executive-branchers are supposed to be doing the politicking, not judges and justices.

The lower court still needs to issue a final appealable ruling on the Government’s 180-degree turn and subsequent no-amnesty ban, by executive process alone, regarding bump-stocks. That ruling may be favorable or it may not, but in any respect, the ongoing cases in different districts will give the Court a record of final appealable orders and, maybe, a circuit split.
 
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Good thing everyone voted for the non-2A friendly liberal New Yorker because of the Supreme Court picks......

More actual infringements on the 2nd than the Obama administration....

1) DJT didn’t pick the SCOTUS nominees at all. The Federalist Society did.

2) This is not a 2A case. It’s a case about executive reinterpretation of a tax law (the NFA) and the post-reinterpretation banning of items previously deemed legal, without compensation. The question presented is not dependent on the widget banned. It’s a Chevron/5A case.

3) Do you not remember the bans on imported 5.45 ammo, running guns to the Cartels to promote gun control, or the changes to NFA trust structures? Constant calls for gun control at the state level from the federal government (which was stalled only by a divided Congress for its own efforts)? The appointment of SCOTUS justices that believe the 2A only protects a State’s right to raise a National Guard? We almost had Merrick Garland in the Court.
 
Wait, wait, wait. I could have sworn somebody on the forum here recently ensured me "First time they try to convict someone even a stupid lawyer will get that overturned".
 
Wait, wait, wait. I could have sworn somebody on the forum here recently ensured me "First time they try to convict someone even a stupid lawyer will get that overturned".

Which is a separate consideration than an interlocutory order regarding a proposed injunction.
 
This is why we desperately need to adopt the nondelegation principle.
{snip}
"Agencies" and their "regulations" should not have force of law.

This is at the heart of many legal issues. Legislatures are too lazy to work out the details necessary to create good laws. Instead, the legislatures point in a general direction and delegate the detailed work to bureaucrats. We would not have nearly as much trouble from bureaucrats if they were only administering the law rather that trying to make law.
 
Which is a separate consideration than an interlocutory order regarding a proposed injunction.
Exactly. As I understand it, this case was about whether to put an injunction on enforcing the ban between now and when the actual ban itself gets through the courts (no doubt to the SC).
 
This is why we desperately need to adopt the nondelegation principle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondelegation_doctrine

Essentially, Congress has to stop abdicating it's responsibility to write laws and stop having the Executive make stuff up as they go.

Every elementary school kid knows that (in theory)...

Congress writes laws
Executive administers
Judicial judicifies

"Agencies" and their "regulations" should not have force of law.
Exactly obamacare was 2,300 pages that no one read, it ended up with 20,000 pages when the regulators finished with it.
 
Which is a separate consideration than an interlocutory order regarding a proposed injunction.
Yes, it is. But to someone like me it's all the same. When all this began a lot of people said none of this would stand in the court. It would all be tossed out. Well here we are. Personal property deemed illegal contraband and the SC talking over what the definition of what is is.
 
1) DJT didn’t pick the SCOTUS nominees at all. The Federalist Society did.

2) This is not a 2A case. It’s a case about executive reinterpretation of a tax law (the NFA) and the post-reinterpretation banning of items previously deemed legal, without compensation. The question presented is not dependent on the widget banned. It’s a Chevron/5A case.

3) Do you not remember the bans on imported 5.45 ammo, running guns to the Cartels to promote gun control, or the changes to NFA trust structures? Constant calls for gun control at the state level from the federal government (which was stalled only by a divided Congress for its own efforts)? The appointment of SCOTUS justices that believe the 2A only protects a State’s right to raise a National Guard? We almost had Merrick Garland in the Court.
You view the NFA as tax law and not a blatant infringement upon the Rights safeguarded by the Second Amendment?
 
You view the NFA as tax law and not a blatant infringement upon the Rights safeguarded by the Second Amendment?

The courts have viewed it that way.
 
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This is at the heart of many legal issues. Legislatures are too lazy to work out the details necessary to create good laws. Instead, the legislatures point in a general direction and delegate the detailed work to bureaucrats. We would not have nearly as much trouble from bureaucrats if they were only administering the law rather that trying to make law.

It’s really hard to get re-elected if someone can make a public issue of how your specific terms hurt them. Why not punt the issue and make every law a vague mission statement to guide unelected bureaucrats?

Side note, when our Con Law professor retired, he spent the last lecture ranting to us about the APA, deprivation of taxpayer standing, and the modern use of the Fourteenth Amendment to invent new rights in lieu of just incorporating express rights against the States.

It was entertaining.
 
You view the NFA as tax law and not a blatant infringement upon the Rights safeguarded by the Second Amendment?

It’s both?

It’s literally part of the IRC, so, yes, it is tax law. Technically, if you comply with the IRC’s NFA provisions, you can buy all the machine guns, grenades, and tanks you want. Literally all you can afford. It just created a market of artificial scarcity by reducing demand through onerous regulations and hoops. Hughes Amendment made machine guns pricier, but SBS/SBR/cans/DDs are really not that expensive.

Thank goodness Congress forgot to inflation-adjust tax stamps.

Social Security (the Government’s chronically unfunded mandatory public retirement system) was rammed through the same way. The Government can get away with borderline anything it wants under the Tax Code thanks to the precedent established by FDR appointees.
 
Yes, it is. But to someone like me it's all the same. When all this began a lot of people said none of this would stand in the court. It would all be tossed out. Well here we are. Personal property deemed illegal contraband and the SC talking over what the definition of what is is.

It’s not all the same, though. It’s why people like me have to get doctoral-level professional degrees in this stuff, and why none of us dumb enough to get those degrees will take the pay cut to teach high school civics so the next generation of kids will understand why courts move so slowly, what injunctions are, and so on. So, the cycle will continue.

No federal appellate court has finished reviewing the procedures by which bump-stocks were banned and entered a final order one way or the other. Nothing final has happened. If you knew the caseload federal courts had, you’d understand why it moves at a glacial pace. Thousands of cases are pending before each individual judge at a given time.

On a high note, Gorsuch’s order denying certiorari was very skeptical of the Government’s position. If the lower courts express the same degree of skepticism, the rule-change will likely be tossed.
 
1) DJT didn’t pick the SCOTUS nominees at all. The Federalist Society did.

2) This is not a 2A case. It’s a case about executive reinterpretation of a tax law (the NFA) and the post-reinterpretation banning of items previously deemed legal, without compensation. The question presented is not dependent on the widget banned. It’s a Chevron/5A case.

3) Do you not remember the bans on imported 5.45 ammo, running guns to the Cartels to promote gun control, or the changes to NFA trust structures? Constant calls for gun control at the state level from the federal government (which was stalled only by a divided Congress for its own efforts)? The appointment of SCOTUS justices that believe the 2A only protects a State’s right to raise a National Guard? We almost had Merrick Garland in the Court.

1 - he didnt pick some folks on the bench? Interesting.

3 - Ok, he banned the imported 5.45 ammo. What else did he ban? Dont talk about 'constant calls for...' because that's just talk, not action.
 
I think one thing that is missing when someone tries to compare Trump to BHO is the realization of the long game that BHO thought he was playing. He may not have actually banned many things, not his job anyway, but did cultivate a very strong culture of anti 2A sentiment that would be needed by future commie maggots in the Whitehouse to be able to slide in very strong gun controls or even complete disarmament with support from a whole lot of people who BHO lead down that path of lies. Fast and Furious comes to mind. He and his handlers were betting on Hillary winning so they could continue their erosion of the Constitution while controlling the highest office in the land. Their plans have been either foiled or delayed for a while.

BHO also assaulted the 2A and the rest of the Constitution by fostering hatred among different groups in this country and by starting the flood of people from failed socialist states who would be unaware of what is in the Constitution and who would be given special treatment and benefits that legal citizens do not enjoy so that he could enlarge the voting base for his party. He promoted the racism of low expectations that made many people little more than slaves to his government. He fueled a growing blaze of anti-American sentiment at home and abroad so that it would be easier for people after him to ignore the Constitution. He was no friend to the Constitution.
 
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1 - he didnt pick some folks on the bench? Interesting.

3 - Ok, he banned the imported 5.45 ammo. What else did he ban? Dont talk about 'constant calls for...' because that's just talk, not action.

Obama did change the rules under ITAR which required gunsmiths to register under some new classification and pay a $2400 annual fee to simply be a gunsmith. He did it with his pen and his phone. This among many other abuses of the ITAR law which TRUMP has been very actively trying to reverse stating that the trade in private arms does not conflict with ITAR which was intended to regulate the trade of military grade weapons and technology. I believe the $2400 annual gunsmith fee is now gone.

It remains to be seen but I think the bump stock ban and red flag laws will eventually be struck down in court. If they are, I think that adds even more momentum to reclaiming gun rights and reducing/eliminating NFA (I don't think we will get NFA-free full auto ever again).
 
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Obama did change the rules under ITAR which required gunsmiths to register under some new classification and pay a $2400 annual fee to simply be a gunsmith. He did it with his pen and his phone. This among many other abuses of the ITAR law which TRUMP has been very actively trying to reverse stating that the trade in private arms does not conflict with ITAR which was intended to regulate the trade of military grade weapons and technology. I believe the $2400 annual fee is now gone.

It remains to be seen but I think the bump stock ban and red flag laws will eventually be struck down in court. If they are, I think that adds even more momentum to reclaiming gun rights and reducing/eliminating NFA (I don't think we will get NFA-free full auto ever again).

Thats not what happened at all.

What changed under was under Bush. The ATF ruling that Gunsmiths had to have a 07 FFL. An 07 FFL must be registered with the State Department due to it being a manufacturer licence. As a manufacturer exporting is part of the business and the $2000 fee was not a annual fee, its the first 10 licences at $200 ea for filing for international export of firearms. The battle that happened is the question of gunsmithing services. where is the line between a Service and acting as a manufacturer?

You can read the tapdance here and look at the dates of issue.
https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download

NSSF drive this home and that is who the ATF was dancing with on the linked document.
 
Thats not what happened at all.

What changed under was under Bush. The ATF ruling that Gunsmiths had to have a 07 FFL. An 07 FFL must be registered with the State Department due to it being a manufacturer licence. As a manufacturer exporting is part of the business and the $2000 fee was not a annual fee, its the first 10 licences at $200 ea for filing for international export of firearms. The battle that happened is the question of gunsmithing services. where is the line between a Service and acting as a manufacturer?

You can read the tapdance here and look at the dates of issue.
https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download

NSSF drive this home and that is who the ATF was dancing with on the linked document.

It happened.

Here is a link that relates better to the executive order on the reinterpretation of the rules in 2016:

https://www.ammoland.com/2016/08/ob...stly-registration-requirements/#axzz6Fe9J7Bif

Note the mention of a change to an "ANNUAL FEE" beginning at $2,250 even if they WERE NOT exporting parts or services. The "I" in ITAR stands for "International" Obama's move to harm the gun industry came after the 2015 date of your document and well after Bush left office.

And this does a good job of explaining what burdens the Trump administration removed:

https://gununiversity.com/firearms-moved-itar-commerce-ccl/
 
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