To PayPal or not to paypal

PayPal?

  • Total voters
    52
TheWallrus said:
My comments were for this forum. It is either taking a firm pro-2A stance or it isn't. In a way, being pro-2A requires you to be anti-anti-2a. Again I ask, where is CFF going to draw the line?
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OK, so let's dump this forum because it runs on software developed by a company I would bet is not pro-2A.

The reality is you can use modern tech or you can only do business with pro-2A companies. Take your pick.
 
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I don't know if it has been sufficiently pointed out that the management here has exhausted nearly every avenue that I am aware to set up credit card processing. I personally set up one of them on behalf of the forum, and was previously turned down for another where one of our own members was a board member of the bank. (and it wasn't his fault. The credit card processors do whatever they want, the financial institutions that want the business be damned)

Most, if not all, the card processors start back peddling once they hear the word firearms.
 
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I'll also add that I was one of the voices on staff against using Paypal in the beginning of our forum. I have the same concerns that have been mentioned above.

After trying every available avenue to set up workable credit card processing that integrates with the site, I would suggest that it wouldn't be us submitting to them if we use them, but them submitting to us, if they process our transactions.
 
I look at it like this. I trusted enough in y'all to follow over to this place so I will trust your decision on this whatever it may be.
 
fieldgrade said:
Paypal has always been whatever it is that they are. I own or use a lot of things that were invented, developed or manufactured by people who I don't agree with. My Ford truck has a UAW union sticker in the rear window from when it was made. I personally think unions are strangling businesses, but I like their trucks, and that is how they have always been made.

CSC on the other hand professed to be one thing, but turned out to be another. They sold us out. We became the product.
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Again, I am not commenting on choices/stances individuals choose to make. We all make compromises that we deem are better in the big picture. We aren't big enough to do otherwise. I am in no way saying anyone is wrong for using Paypal. I would like to make the distinction between individuals and an entity such as CFF.

May I ask a couple of hypothetical questions? If CSC had been bought by GRNC, would we still have left? If a subsidiary of Paypal had bought CSC, would we have left?
Was the problem that we were sold or was it to whom we were sold?



drypowder said:
OK, so let's dump this forum because it runs on software developed by a company I would bet is not pro-2A.

The reality is you can use modern tech or you can only do business with pro-2A companies. Take your pick.
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I cannot speak to that theory with any knowledge. I know nothing about what options are available for hosting a forum. I would ask that if vbulletin was pro-2A and xenforo was anti-2A, what choice would we have made? Is xenforo our only option? Have they made a stance against guns and the 2A? If your point is that all forum software comes from anti-2A companies and we have no choice, I concede that. However, we do have options other than Paypal. They may not be the easiest options, but they are there. It also appears that more options may be on the horizon.

Look, I don't have a horse in this race. I appreciate that the option for me to send a check exists. If the option to use Paypal is needed for this forum to survive, then so be it.
I just think we should be careful how we, CFF, declare ourselves to be like the 3% but then act like everyone else.
 
I'm anti PayPal. I don't usually get too vocal online but F#%$ them and their Prius they rode in on. We are 2A and they aren't. Why would we put money in Bloomberg's pocket if we don't have to? (just an example) We need to find an alternative? I've used Venmo before. I don't know their stance but it's straight forward and easy to use to transfer cash.


EDIT: with my luck, it's probably owned by Bloomberg and Clinton
 
skiles said:
I'm anti PayPal. I don't usually get too vocal online but F#%$ them and their Prius they rode in on. We are 2A and they aren't. Why would we put money in Bloomberg's pocket if we don't have to? (just an example) We need to find an alternative? I've used Venmo before. I don't know their stance but it's straight forward and easy to use to transfer cash.


EDIT: with my luck, it's probably owned by Bloomberg and Clinton
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Venmo is owned by Paypal. ;)

As I said earlier, you can use modern tech or you can ONLY do biz with pro-2A companies.
 
Yes, because although they are a bunch of Leftist idiots, they really are the only convenient game in town. If you use eBay you are pretty much stuck with using them.
 
I just paid for a gun barrel with PayPal, a first for me. Someone had to pay me for another gun part with PayPal and I didn't know how to convert it to cash, so I bought a barrel to use most of the balance. It is convenient.
 
It's not that we don't have other options. We currently run another option, it's just not integrated into the setup of XF.

The ONLY option integrated into XF is PayPal. That is until XF2.0 by the look of it.
 
Oh, and the aforementioned cff.com for an email address to use at PP, that domain is long since gone.
 
If we use PayPal we need to transfer the money to a bank account immediately after it hits our account. That way if they lock the account there won't much in it. We don't need a balance in a PayPal account.
 
drypowder said:
Venmo is owned by Paypal. ;)

As I said earlier, you can use modern tech or you can ONLY do biz with pro-2A companies.
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D'oh! :D

It wouldn't be as funny if he hadn't gone on a mild Tourette's induced rant about sticking it to them!
 
Since it's a temporary situation, until the release of 2.0, I'd say use it and whatever tactics are required to do so.

Aren't most of the banks anti-2nd or at least supposed to be via Operation Choke-Point? Do we stop using banks? Yes, we can stand on our principles, but then we're not moving- forward are we? Or we can do what we need to do to get the job done and move on. Adapt and overcome.

Are you driving an American car? Are you even shooting an American gun? What compromises have you made it you don't?
 
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My 2 cents worth here...and I'll send it cash, check, bank draft, USPS Money order, or PayPal:

Comparing PayPal as one means of payment for membership dues to this site is a world apart from the issue that came up on The Site That Shall Not Be Named.

Why?

Because PayPal is simply being used as a means to transfer funds for membership dues. We're not talking about turning the entire site over to new ownership with a proven Anti-2A track record. The owners of CFF retain full control over this site, its contents, its membership, its dues, etc.

Now, does this mean that PayPal reaps some benefit from CFF transactions? Certainly. But you'd be hard pressed to find businesses which are 100% aligned with our own beliefs, regardless. Virtually every major store out there likely carries merchandise that we don't agree with for one reason or another. Jeans made by some anti-2A company, parts made in China or Mexico, clothing with left-wing propaganda printed on it, stocks/bonds from businesses engaged in activities we don't approve of, bought out by some other company we don't like, etc.

Heck, we're using computers connected to a network the government is, literally, monitoring all activity on world wide...and yet, here we are.

Make your choices wisely and with your own conscious in mind. But for me PayPal would be a mole hill amongst the mountains of other cr*p I care about.

Besides...there are other methods of payment available. I certainly didn't get a "RETURN TO SENDER" stamped on my envelop because my postal money order wasn't acceptable!
 
To me, Paypal is like a 6 year old playing dress up. They're pretending to be a bank. I vote no.
 
fuelpiper said:
To me, Paypal is like a 6 year old playing dress up. They're pretending to be a bank. I vote no.
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I hear what you're saying. My view of them is not "pretending" so much as it is has been them jumping through the hoops that the Feds require to handle money legitimately in the manner that they do. That seems to require bank-hood status. THey have always been a "bank" on paper. It wasn't until recently (5 or so years) that they really started acting like one instead of the money moving/transferring service that they started out to be. Credit cards, deferred payemtns, actually holding money for you...those weren't part of the original PayPal.
 
If the only feasible option is to hold our nose and go with it, then go ahead.

My only caution would be to keep some separation in the event that info is stolen; I wouldn't give them any more than is necessary. I'm not sure if it's possible (haven't tried) to tie it to a single account with heavy restriction and little to no personal info given to paypal.

Didn't vote, as I'm in the crowd that has already paid and likely will have minimal use of this.
 
georgel said:
Since it's a temporary situation, until the release of 2.0, I'd say use it and whatever tactics are required to do so.
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Yes, but if we get caught or turned in to PayPal during that temp period it won't matter when 2.0 comes out because we'll be on PayPal's shit list.

We would be best served by waiting until 2.0 comes out and then our likelihood of any issues is virtually nil. We can make do a while longer like we're going, can't we?
 
Shrek said:
Yes, but if we get caught or turned in to PayPal during that temp period it won't matter when 2.0 comes out because we'll be on PayPal's shit list.

We would be best served by waiting until 2.0 comes out and then our likelihood of any issues is virtually nil. We can make do a while longer like we're going, can't we?
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So who cares if we're on PP's shitlist by the time 2.0 comes out? At that point we might have the option to switch away.
 
To my knowledge we are using all the options available. I am pretty sure we've exhausted just about every other viable choice. I don't think we are discussing whether we should choose one, or another, but whether we should add one, PayPal, that happens to integrate into the website so the admins don't have to individually process every credit card transaction.

As long as we don't leave any dough in the PP account I don't see what we have to lose at this point. The admins wouldn't post the poll above if they hadn't been asked a crapload of times if CFF will take PayPal.

Edit: As I mentioned upthread, I prefer to think of it as PP compromising their own standards if they service us, versus the other way around. Unless they are sending their money to George Soros or some other horribly nefarious thing, I don't really care what they do if they work for us.
 
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I would like to pay my dues with sea shells and shiny rocks, maybe a beaver pelt or two. Please let me know how many of each will be required.
 
JohnnyTyler said:
I would like to pay my dues with sea shells and shiny rocks, maybe a beaver pelt or two. Please let me know how many of each will be required.
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The Platinum Section only accepts quality .22LR by the brick. Send @Climberman a PM, he'll tell you where to leave it.
 
Shrek said:
*might*

The difference is your position is gambling while mine is playing it safe.

The question that we should address is is the gamble worth it.
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:confused:

As I understand it, we can either use PP via Xenforo now or not (if not, we stick to checks or manual credit card processing with all the work these options require of the staff). In a future version of Xenforo, we may have the ability to use another payment processor or it may just be limited to Paypal. Any time we use PP, we run the risk they will decide they don't want to be involved in processing payments to a gun forum. Not sure why you think using it now vs using it later is a gamble?

I say allow PP as an option, and reduce the burden on the staff. If, in the future, Xenforo allows us to choose a different payment processor and there happens to be one that is pro-2A (I won't hold my breath), then we can switch.

As an aside (and not directed at @Shrek), this entire thread is somewhat ridiculous. I'm sure no one who is against Paypal as a payment option for forum dues is:
1. volunteering to manually process payments for the staff (hundreds of transactions each year; thousands/year as the forum grows)
2. using email from a pro-2A company
3. using social media from a pro-2A company
4. using a smartphone, or running a smartphone OS, made by a pro-2A company

Let's incorporate some sense and practicality in deciding which battles to fight. Frankly, I am grateful that Paypal has eased the way for so much firearms commerce - I know I have sent and received hundreds of Paypal payments in the course of buying/selling gun gear. Many of those transactions simply would not have happened if the friction/hassle/time delay of money orders or checks were required.
 
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It's pretty much a business decision...

Ease of payment = likely to increase revenue to the website due to easy to renew and automated payments
vs
Manual payments = moral high ground, people more likely to forget/choose not to send payment once expired

I suppose it would boil down to how much the owners of the forum need to operate, what they currently have in the bank, and whether they're willing to invest their own money into continuing on as the forum grows. My guess is right now with all the initial membership they've got plenty for a while but in a couple years if paid membership drops off that could be a different story. Using friends and family is a huge no-no and would be a huge mistake. Paypal won't deal with guns but they'll accept payments for gun related items with no issues, I don't see them dropping forum payments any time soon.
 
drypowder said:
:confused:

As I understand it, we can either use PP via Xenforo now or not (if not, we stick to checks or manual credit card processing with all the work these options require of the staff). In a future version of Xenforo, we may have the ability to use another payment processor or it may just be limited to Paypal. Any time we use PP, we run the risk they will decide they don't want to be involved in processing payments to a gun forum. Not sure why you think using it now vs using it later is a gamble?

I say allow PP as an option, and reduce the burden on the staff. If, in the future, Xenforo allows us to choose a different payment processor and there happens to be one that is pro-2A (I won't hold my breath), then we can switch.

This entire thread is somewhat ridiculous. I'm sure no one who is against Paypal as a payment option for forum dues is:
1. volunteering to manually process payments for the staff (hundreds of transactions each year; thousands/year as the forum grows)
2. using email from a pro-2A company
3. using social media from a pro-2A company
4. using a smartphone, or running a smartphone OS, made by a pro-2A company

Let's incorporate some sense and practicality in deciding which battles to fight. Frankly, I am grateful that Paypal has eased the way for so much firearms commerce - I know I have sent and received hundreds of Paypal payments in the course of buying/selling gun gear. Many of those transactions simply would not have happened if the friction/hassle/time delay of money orders or checks were required.
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Ok. I think there is a disconnect here on what I'm saying.

First - let me say again, I'm not against using PayPal for 2a reasons. Period. In fact, I'm not completely against using PayPal. Just against using it right now.

My understanding is that by using the update available in 2.0 will reduce our risk of running afoul of PayPal's anti 2a issues. Ask @BurnedOutGeek if this is accurate.

If this is true then it is a gamble/risk that we can reduce by waiting a little longer.

As far as no one is offering to help - I don't know about you, but I've made it clear that I would be willing to help in any way that they need. I wasn't just paying lip service to the idea when I offered to help out.

I understand that it is a burden, I understand it is a pain in the ass, that is why I said we need to de identify if it's worth it. I'm not against the idea, I'm only thinking of managing the risk. If you don't see any risk, OK, that's your view.

The other concern I had was what dcgallim voiced I his post. Some malcontent that wants to screw us up only has to complain to PP and then we're screwed. That's not a reason to not do it, it's just something to keep in mind.

Some of you seem to think I'm arguing against PayPal, but I'm not. I just want what's best for the forum. If I'm off base with anything I'm apologize.

Again, if help is needed, help is available.
 
I think we'd be ok with PP, we just need to call them and tell them we dont sell any guns so they can mark that on our account. There are alot of firearms accessory accounts out there and thats pretty much what they do.
 
Ive had a business card from Paypal that works just like a debit card from any other bank except it actual pays a dividend. Ive used it for years to buy gun related items online and never had the funds seized or really anything. Not sure what all the fuss is, because I just used it to buy steel targets off ebay with free shipping.
Ive also used it to buy firearms from Academy Sports...so whats the difference if its a forum that doesnt really sell anything?
 
Can we create a PP neutral account and transfer the funds? Seems like XF 2.0 is an unknown at this point.
[email protected] :D
 
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