Was told today "we don't do work on AR pistols anymore"

oldmanironfist

oldmanironfist

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Apologies if this is not the correct forum to discuss this.

I went to the gunsmith counter at the range I'm a member of today. I spoke to the gunsmith and described how I'm an idiot and screwed up my new rattler upper while trying to change the muzzle device. I told him the issue was I tried using a Bev block on an MCX, it wouldn't fit and I decided to try anyway and bent part of the upper (again, I admit I'm an idiot). I make sure it was okay to show him, then pulled it out of my range bag. When he saw it, he made an "oh crap" face, and said "is that an MCX pistol? I can't work on those". I explained to him that I've removed the lower and left it at home, and this is just the upper. He reiterated that he could not work on it at all. I asked if I just removed the barrel and have him do the muzzle device (as I could just get an new MCX stripped upper for $500 and get around the bent part), and he again refused. He said company policy is to not do any AR pistol work until all this stuff is sorted out in the courts, and described some of the mess they've been going through with the ATF. I'm not trying to screw up anyone's livelihood, and completely understand the position he's in. I expressed this to him and thanked him for his time and discussion. He gave me the card of someone he thought would be willing to do the work. He's a nice guy and not trying to call him out or throw any shade, but I really don't feel like waiting for this stuff to get sorted out in the courts to get my gun working again. I mean, it could be years.

My question is, is this the way things are now or is my range being overly cautious to put this rule in place?

Second question, how much should it cost to put on a muzzle device on an MCX barrel and bend back the retaining pin part of the upper? I'm hesitant to buy/mod tools for an MCX upper, as this might be a one-off. I have changed muzzle devices on ARs before (without issue but with the right tools).
 
The range is being ridiculous, not over cautious. What if it’s an SBR upper?? Again, it’s just an upper receiver since the firearm (lower) isn’t present.

Also, there’s no rule gainst AR (or other) pistols, they weren’t banned, it’s just a brace rule.

No clue about the retaining pin part but to install a muzzle device should be around $20-50 depending on if they’re timing it, using their own shims etc
 
Call SIG and see what they will do. Might get lucky with them.

As far as not working on AR pistols that sounds like an FFL playing long game CYA.........just not sure its necessary.
 
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11B CIB said:
The range is being ridiculous, not over cautious. What if it’s an SBR upper?? Again, it’s just an upper receiver since the firearm (lower) isn’t present.
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Agreed. Has some work done on a pistol upper once. Guy had me field strip the gun and give him the upper so he didn’t have to even check it in cause it wasn’t a firearm.
 
So with the ATF acting crazy under current administration you want someone to risk their livelihood? Is it a little over the top? Maybe. But look at it from their angle. It is a part that can be used to make a short barrel rifle. Sometimes it is better to be safe than sorry especially if some government agency is looking for excuses to shut you down.
 
mellocollins said:
So with the ATF acting crazy under current administration you want someone to risk their livelihood? Is it a little over the top? Maybe. But look at it from their angle. It is a part that can be used to make a short barrel rifle. Sometimes it is better to be safe than sorry especially if some government agency is looking for excuses to shut you down.
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A hacksaw can be used to make a short barrel rifle. Put any kind of stock on any kind of pistol any magically you have a short barrel rifle.

And this is all beside the point that the short barrel rifle rule is a load of hogwash anyway, whose sole purpose is to give the government another gun control law with which to charge people with a felony against and thereby permanently remove their RKBA.

But I digress. Carry on.
 
noway2 said:
So is a #10 metric screw. Where do we draw the line?
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Wherever the ATF's doodling leads, obviously.

Which tends to look like a line drawn by Michael J. Fox in the middle of an earthquake using a spirograph with several broken/missing teeth.
 
11B CIB said:
The range is being ridiculous, not over cautious. What if it’s an SBR upper?? Again, it’s just an upper receiver since the firearm (lower) isn’t present.

Also, there’s no rule gainst AR (or other) pistols, they weren’t banned, it’s just a brace rule.
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Exactly, AR pistols are not illegal.
Even if the range/shop you are talking about has been visited by an ABC agency, they are doing nothing wrong or illegal by working on/repairing a barrel that is less than 16".
:rolleyes: pffft.
 
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RetiredUSNChief said:
A hacksaw can be used to make a short barrel rifle. Put any kind of stock on any kind of pistol any magically you have a short barrel rifle.

And this is all beside the point that the short barrel rifle rule is a load of hogwash anyway, whose sole purpose is to give the government another gun control law with which to charge people with a felony against and thereby permanently remove their RKBA.

But I digress. Carry on.
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I completely agree. I didn’t mean it was not ridiculous. Just look at it from their point of view. That is how they feed their family.
 
I sent a lot of work to a local machine shop when I still with the company.

They always did excellent work, so when I was ready to SBR my 15-22, I asked the owner if he would cut and thread the barrel. I was shocked when he said no because he's usually the most agreeable and go out of his way to help you type person.

When I asked why not, he said because that was making a firearm and was illegal. When I told him he was wrong, he decided to ask his nephew. The nephew was actually the guy that would be doing the work and was already into guns and NFA stuff.

Once the owner was satisfied that there wasn't anything illegal about it, the nephew did the work.

On top of an excellent job, they did it for free.

That was a nice touch.
 
Yeah that dude is a fudd loser. I would never give them any more of your money. You should let everyone know what range it is so we can poopoo on them. The upper wouldn’t be illegal even if they outlawed braces/AR pistols. Ever heard of an SBR?

Regardless, the upper, separated from the lower, is not a serialized part and falls in no category related to the ongoing pistol brace fiasco.
 
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The ATF,, under guidance of the current administration, is LOOKING to rescind FFL's from dealers. They are using many minor details, (clerical errors etc.) to revoke a license. My youngest is LEO. He called me months ago to ask if I'd heard about (2) local gun shops who'd gotten their FFL's revoked for MINOR clerical infractions. As such, many FFL's are having to be extra cautious, and even refusing work to protect their livelihood. A $50 job that is easy, is not worth it if the LOCAL ATF AGENT decides to ding you for a minor infraction. And remember,, one ATF agent can "interpret" the law one way,, while another one can see it differently.
Do not blame a business for protecting themselves.
Even if the law states something,, and we might interpret it to be legal, and even lawyers may say it's legal, but an ATF agent can easily say; "Let the lawyers sort it out." It doesn't cost the ATF agents anything,, and it will cost the FFL a LOT of money to defend his "rights."

It's the media, politicians, and the anti-gun types who have AND are doing all they can to make it difficult to own any firearms.

Remember when Bill Clinton had the ATF go after small FFL's? License fees went up, harsh inspections, etc caused a serious drop in many small dealers.

I do not place blame upon the dealers.
 
contender said:
The ATF,, under guidance of the current administration, is LOOKING to rescind FFL's from dealers. They are using many minor details, (clerical errors etc.) to revoke a license. My youngest is LEO. He called me months ago to ask if I'd heard about (2) local gun shops who'd gotten their FFL's revoked for MINOR clerical infractions. As such, many FFL's are having to be extra cautious, and even refusing work to protect their livelihood. A $50 job that is easy, is not worth it if the LOCAL ATF AGENT decides to ding you for a minor infraction. And remember,, one ATF agent can "interpret" the law one way,, while another one can see it differently.
Do not blame a business for protecting themselves.
Even if the law states something,, and we might interpret it to be legal, and even lawyers may say it's legal, but an ATF agent can easily say; "Let the lawyers sort it out." It doesn't cost the ATF agents anything,, and it will cost the FFL a LOT of money to defend his "rights."

It's the media, politicians, and the anti-gun types who have AND are doing all they can to make it difficult to own any firearms.

Remember when Bill Clinton had the ATF go after small FFL's? License fees went up, harsh inspections, etc caused a serious drop in many small dealers.

I do not place blame upon the dealers.
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Then dot the "I's and cross the "T's". Work within the rules and regulations that are in place, be law abiding. There is nothing that the OP'er was asking that crossed the line.
I get "that" could be a "vantage point", mindset...but that is a fear based mentality. Like when a cop pulls in behind someone and they "panic" even though they have not or are not breaking any laws. If you aren't doing anything wrong (as per the law and statutes) you got nothing to worry about. I, personally, just don't get it. I don't blame the dealers, but if this is their mentality and mindset, maybe they should step away and choose another profession.
 
beeleafs said:
I don't blame the dealers, but if this is their mentality and mindset, maybe they should step away and choose another profession.
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This. If a dealer is so ignorant that he doesn’t know the laws (aka thinks he can get in trouble for touching an upper with a short barrel), he probably needs a new job. Or at least needs to educate himself on the laws pertaining to his job.
 
contender said:
Do not blame a business for protecting themselves.
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Simple. If I don’t like their practices or terms, I won’t shop there. If enough people don’t shop there, they go out of business. This idea that I’ve got to put up with their crap, because reasons, doesn’t fly.
 
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I don't want to name the range because they literally know me by name when I go in there. When I went in on Friday, the guy behind the counter said "Hey X, what lane are you on?" I went to the gunsmith and had the conversation, the next thing is "X is talking crap about us online". They are a good range, and normally aren't fudds. I can draw from holster, rapid fire (assuming I'm being safe), etc.

The gunsmith in question pointed to the white board in his shop (at the range) with this rule written down. It is 100% not his choice (assuming he wants to keep his job), and honestly seemed to understand it was BS. The range in question sells NFA items as well, so I'm sure the ATF is looking for reasons to shut them down. And I'm waiting for one of those NFA items (~120 days now). So being completely selfish, I really want them to stay in business at least another 100 days or so (based on current wait times).
He did me a solid and referred me to someone who will do the work.

I didn't even bring my lower to avoid the whole issue about SBR/Pistol. So I was completely surprised (and the reason why I was writing this post originally). This is the first time I've tried to use the gunsmith at this place. Ignoring the whole "Pistol/SBR" issue, this is probably a long term bad decision for the gunsmith. I tend to be a loyal customer, and once I've found a gunsmith I trust, I will use them for all my needs going forward.
 
Will Sig customer service even take the upper back for repairs?

Sounds like management is being overly conservative on the large format pistol issue. But, it’s a business with debt service, employees, and operating expense obligations. Everyone wants FFLs to be 2A absolutists selling lightning link keychains at the register, but no one here has a real idea of what the business’s exposures are from a risk management/actuarial point of view.

There might be a business reason for being risk adverse on this specific issue for now (interactions with or information from the local field office or state examiner, pending need to refi a major ABL facility, guidance from the range’s insurance carrier, pressure from investors, etc.).
 
Yeah, I think a lot of FFL's are in 'circle your wagons,' mode right now. Think about it. There's so many cases you could make against ATF/gun laws:
*malicious prosection of the FFL's
*the whole point of the FFL's in general. That New York State Rifle v. Bruen case says that basically any gun law not based on laws around when the constitution was made are illegal. You could probably bring a case to strike down all FFL licensing in general.
*Destructive device/AP ammo laws.
* The 1986 machine gun ban
* 922r
* 4473's and registration
* All NFA laws regarding machine guns, silencers, SBR's, sawed off shotguns, etc.

Question is, who is going to take the decade and millions of dollars to take those to court? Most people either don't have the resources, just want to live their life, or, if they have the resources, also have the resources not to be bothered by these infringements.
I'm not gonna blame the small FFL shops for trying to protect them and theirs, even if they are being ninnies. It's like that gym in NJ during covid. They stood up for their rights, but the government still ruined their lives.
I would just find a more reliable gunsmith.
 
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"Then dot the "I's and cross the "T's". Work within the rules and regulations that are in place, be law abiding. There is nothing that the OP'er was asking that crossed the line.
I get "that" could be a "vantage point", mindset...but that is a fear based mentality. Like when a cop pulls in behind someone and they "panic" even though they have not or are not breaking any laws. If you aren't doing anything wrong (as per the law and statutes) you got nothing to worry about. I, personally, just don't get it. I don't blame the dealers, but if this is their mentality and mindset, maybe they should step away and choose another profession."

Obviously those with this mentality are totally perfect and never make a mistake, EVER.

I know quite a few FFL's. After normal audits by different ATF agents,, none, and I mean NONE of them have ever had an audit where some MINOR clerical error occurred. And,, until recently,,, the ATF agents just wrote up the minor stuff, allowing the FFL to fix things w/o penalty. Not all ATF agents are doing that now. As such,, anybody who has a FFL is under extreme scrutiny, BECAUSE the politicians in charge have decided that since they can't regulate guns, they CAN regulate dealers.

I'm not perfect, never met anybody who was perfect, and do not expect anybody to be perfect. Protecting your business,,, OR,, as noted above your job since you follow what the owner of a business says to do, I can defend.

Yes,, it may be legal to do as the OP wanted,, according to the laws. But re-read my post. It costs a LOT of money to defend yourself against the government. Most FFL's do not have 1/2 million dollars or more just to fight & prove a point or prove an agent wrong.

Remember,, we are fighting an anti-gun political machine,, using as many different laws, regulations or whatever they can dream up to stop us all.

Yes,, it's YOUR choice to shop elsewhere. It's your choice to decide to boycott a gun shop that doesn't do as you wish. But I ask this; "Where will you go when the gun shops are all closed down?"
 
The only reason this LGS should be afraid of doing work on something that is COMPLETELY LEGAL TO OWN is because he is doing some other stuff that isn’t on the level.
 
The owner of the shop made a judgement call. I disagree with his call, and it’s easy to assume that he misunderstands the law, but it’s probably more complicated than that. The gunsmith is just an employee, doesn’t make policy.

If you want to do anything about it, maybe ask the owner why he’s being more restrictive than the law requires.
 
They are already being looked at by the ATF … while it sucks if it were my business and money (you say range, gunsmith and such so we are talking a serious chunk of change investment) I’d be all over my employees to be extra careful on everything from A to Z so the ATF had no further reason to even think of pulling my FFL … and risking the possible shuttering of the business. It sucks but in today’s ATF overreach era everyone from gun owners to manufactures including shops, ranges and smiths are targets …from multi-million dollar guntry club ranges to the one-man gunsmith shops. When it comes to their money … investment as well as income … businesses are having to be extra careful with the ATF being so aggressive … another slice of the Gun Rights Cake goes gets cut away …😞
 
NCFubar said:
They are already being looked at by the ATF … while it sucks if it were my business and money (you say range, gunsmith and such so we are talking a serious chunk of change investment) I’d be all over my employees to be extra careful on everything from A to Z so the ATF had no further reason to even think of pulling my FFL … and risking the possible shuttering of the business. It sucks but in today’s ATF overreach era everyone from gun owners to manufactures including shops, ranges and smiths are targets …from multi-million dollar guntry club ranges to the one-man gunsmith shops. When it comes to their money … investment as well as income … businesses are having to be extra careful with the ATF being so aggressive … another slice of the Gun Rights Cake goes gets cut away …😞
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You are 100% correct. But the OPs request falls nowhere near anything that can be construed as illegal. Which is why gun stores are shipping AR pistols without braces and still selling uppers that are less than 16”. I think it’s absurd that anyone is trying to defend the decision in question.

Even if the braces/pistols were deemed illegal, the sale and gunsmithing of uppers/barrels under 16” would continue.
 
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barf said:
The only reason this LGS should be afraid of doing work on something that is COMPLETELY LEGAL TO OWN is because he is doing some other stuff that isn’t on the level.
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That’s a huge jump. That’s like saying driving below the speed limit when it’s raining is a sign of illegal activity.
 
JRV said:
That’s a huge jump. That’s like saying driving below the speed limit when it’s raining is a sign of illegal activity.
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Huh? Either he is operating within the (absurd) lines of the ATF rules and the law, or he isn’t. Driving slower than the speed limit in the rain is not illegal. That’s a weird analogy.

Why would you be afraid of doing something 100% legal if you run a 100% legal business?

If someone asked him to work on a BRACED PISTOL, I would 100% be behind his decision to refuse that, or ask that they return without the lower.
 
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barf said:
Huh? Either he is operating within the (absurd) lines of the ATF rules and the law, or he isn’t. Driving slower than the speed limit in the rain is not illegal. That’s a weird analogy.

Why would you be afraid of doing something 100% legal if you run a 100% legal business?

If someone asked him to work on a BRACED PISTOL, I would 100% be behind his decision to refuse that, or ask that they return without the lower.
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You said if the gunsmith won’t work on a large pistol upper, then it is a sign that he’s doing illegal things in other areas.

I.e., his shop is taking a position that is more conservative/restrictive than the existing regulatory clusterfuffle, ergo, they’re hiding shady business practices. By that logic, doing something more conservative than what the law requires (e.g. driving under the speed limit) is a sign of criminal conduct.

At least a few people here seem to understand that avoiding possessing or servicing items subject to this whole fiasco, while overly conservative, might just be the shop trying to avoid problems until the litigation plays out. It’s fuddy, sure. It’s also nobody’s money, livelihood, license, or shop at play here.

Hell, maybe the shop just doesn’t want to be another a resource of customer info for potential braced pistols—not servicing the uppers for now means no paper trail of repair tickets tied to this items.

If the local field office comes in to audit books and records and inspect inventory, there will be a short upper in the gunsmith’s safe with a customer’s name and info rubber banded to it. I’d bet most of us have seen the videos of ATF agents photographing 4473s and A&D books. You want some ATF dude with nothing better to do double-checking to see whether there’s a stamp associated with it or asking questions about the lower?
 
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JRV said:
You said if the gunsmith won’t work on a large pistol upper, then it is a sign that he’s doing illegal things in other areas.

I.e., his shop is taking a position that is more conservative/restrictive than the existing regulatory clusterfuffle, ergo, they’re hiding shady business practices. By that logic, doing something more conservative than what the law requires (e.g. driving under the speed limit) is a sign of criminal conduct.

At least a few people here seem to understand that avoiding possessing or servicing items subject to this whole fiasco, while overly conservative, might just be the shop trying to avoid problems until the litigation plays out. It’s fuddy, sure. It’s also nobody’s money, livelihood, license, or shop at play here.

Hell, maybe the shop just doesn’t want to be another a resource of customer info for potential braced pistols—not servicing the uppers for now means no paper trail of repair tickets tied to this items.

If the local field office comes in to audit books and records and inspect inventory, there will be a short upper in the gunsmith’s safe with a customer’s name and info rubber banded to it. I’d bet most of us have seen the videos of ATF agents photographing 4473s and A&D books. You want some ATF dude with nothing better to do double-checking to see whether there’s a stamp associated with it or asking questions about the lower?
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I never said it was a sign of illegal activity, I said the only reason he SHOULD have concern about anything is if he was doing illegal things.

There are no stamps associated with uppers, so I’m not sure how an ATF agent could possibly link a stamp to a short barreled upper, short of some moron telling on themselves.

I am willing to bet if you went into this same gun shop tomorrow and asked them to order you an 11.5 inch upper, they would not hesitate. Hell he probably has some for sale in the shop (as many other LGSs do currently). Those aren’t an issue, and neither is working on one.
 
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