What does the Second Amendment mean to you?

SPM

Wobomagonda
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I've had a few days to think. Last week, we had a pretty heated and passionate discussion on where bumpfire stocks fell with regards to the Rights safeguarded by the Second Amendment.

In the course of that argument, a line was drawn, and another member quit.

We were a unified front through 8 years of scheme after scheme to disarm us, yet we not only defended what tattered remains of our Rights were left us, but began stitching them back together - winning in legislatures and in courtrooms. Gun Rights had never been more secure, even after 8 years of Obama - because We, the People secured them through defiance and outright hostility towards those who would disarm us.

At a time when we should be united, fighting against those whose sole purpose in life is the destruction of our Rights, our Liberty, our free way of life - we instead find ourselves separated by internal squabbling on the completely fundamental parts of the argument for the unalienable Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms.

So here we find ourselves - the "gun friendly" GOP in full control of the federal government and the biggest threat to the Right to Arms is coming from them - and the suddenly fractured front that held through 8 years of Obama.

I cannot help but feel partially responsible for some of that fracturing, given what happened last week.

So with that in mind, I just want to ask everyone: what does the Second Amendment mean to you?

You needn't answer here - it's a question you first need to dwell on deep within yourself, the knowledge of what it means, and then to know the lengths to which you would go to protect it.

From my perspective, the main issue of not understanding the Second Amendment is a matter of context....one which both the anti-gun lobby and even the pro-gun lobby propagate:

The Second Amendment has nothing to do with hunting...it has nothing to do with sport shooting....it has nothing to do with collecting firearms.

If one believes that all men are created equal, then that's final. If one believes we all have the unalienable Right to Life - then logic and reason demand that we also have the unalienable Right to defend that Life from
from outside aggression, whether the threat comes from one person, a group of people, a government, or society at large. (Conversely, if one does not believe all men equal or equally entitled to the Right to Life, then that in itself identifies a philosophical position that is antithetical with a society based on Liberty and individual Rights.)

Since the founding of the Republic, the most effective means of defending one’s life has been firearms. It is the great equalizer in physical combat, as it allows the weak to stand against the strong on equal footing. It is the very implement which separates the Citizen from the subject, the free man (or woman) from the oppressed.

In the simplest terms, an armed populace cannot be forced or coerced against their will; they must be convinced. Any population properly trained and sufficiently armed combined with the willingness to use both is an effective check against abused power....be it by a central government, a local despot, a criminal element, or an angry mob. It's not so much that arms protect the Constitution (though in the case of these United States, that remains true) so much as arms protect the People from abuse of power by any who intend to rule them rather than govern by their consent.

At it's heart, the Second Amendment is simply putting in writing your right as a human being to defend yourself against threats to your life, liberty, and your pursuit of happiness.....whether that threat comes from a criminal element or the very government the Constitution established.

The Founders understood, and many of us are never taught - or if we were we have forgotten - the Right to arms undergirds every other right in the Bill of Rights, including those spoken of but not named specifically.

What good is the Freedom of Speech if the government has a monopoly on force and is able to repress it?

How can the citizenry demand the government respect their rights if their voice is the only weapon in their arsenal?

When the Amendment was written, America had just loosed herself from the yoke of a tyrannical government, and wanted to ensure that We, the People had the ability (not the Right....a Right is inalienable and cannot be taken from you and was not and is not the gift of men or their governments) to do so again if the need arose.

The Declaration of Independence states:

"that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Arms grant the citizenry the final say in how we are governed. Such a thought seems anathema to most modern citizens because we have all lived in relative prosperity under a government that only recently began a rapid assault on individual liberty. But the last 2 decades should demonstrate that left unchecked, government makes intentional and systematic violations of the Rights of the People as a normal part of doing business.

The debate now is now different than it was when Thomas Jefferson described gun control back in 1774-76:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

Have laws against guns kept guns out of the hands of criminals? Have laws against murder....rape....theft kept criminals from committing these acts? A person that breaks the law will not be deterred by yet another law....how does that make sense to anyone?

So that is why ".........shall not be infringed." means precisely that to me. That is why I am so forthright in my position- for without the Right to Arms, no other Right is safe. Bumpfires now is semi-autos later. And it would mean passing on a country that is less Free than the one I was born into. That's what I think whenever one cries "Think of the children!"

So my challenge to everyone else is to think about what it means to you, and to recognize that now is not the time to relax, just because it's our "friends" stabbing us in the back.

We need to rekindle the same fires that were burning in our bellies the 8 years that a Democrat occupied the White House, stand shoulder to shoulder once more and FIGHT.

Nothing short of the survival of the Republic depends on it.
 
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A member quit over a bump stock debate? WTF? Is being a snowflake contagious? People keep taking their ball and going home. If we can't be civil and debate gun issues then we are totally FUBAR if things truly get bad. Quite a united front we have. :(
 
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I understand it doesn’t have anything to do with sports shooting or hunting, but as far as collecting goes, how do you differentiate a “collection”? Acquiring guns to look at and acquire value versus owning to one day use against a tyrannical government? And what’s to say those in the first example couldn’t be used in the second? Not arguing @SPM just posing the thought
 
Love seeing the different meanings to folks in threads like these and everyone getting along.
 
First an fo most........ It was to ensure citizens would not be overun by the gubmint.......like they were in england.

Everything else is up for debate.
 
Just to add to SPM’s thoughtful and eloquent post....The Second Amendment is the founders affirmation of a natural right for survival.

Building on what 12151791 said, the 2A was not written into the Bill of Rights in order to grant us the right but to AFFIRM this as a natural right and to codify the protection of this natural right from government ("SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED").

I'm distressed to no end by the infringements that have been placed already against this natural right and those infringements that continue to be contemplated.

That's how I see it.
 
I understand it doesn’t have anything to do with sports shooting or hunting, but as far as collecting goes, how do you differentiate a “collection”? Acquiring guns to look at and acquire value versus owning to one day use against a tyrannical government? And what’s to say those in the first example couldn’t be used in the second? Not arguing @SPM just posing the thought

Those are still protected from infringements by the limits placed on government power by the Second Amendment.

That's simply not the reason such limits were codified in the highest law of the land.

And if at the end of the day it was gold-inlayed collectible firearms that held the line for Liberty, then they have met their purpose.
 
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We have a country full of guns.
As long as we do, the .gov will not be able to completely rule us.

They have no right to infringe in anyway on our right to own these guns and to bear these guns.

They are for our protection from a tyrannical government.

They were included in the Constitution for a reason.

No infringement, none, nada, zip, zero.
 
well, to me, the 2A is an amendment that can be repealed.
which means-to-me i should spend my money and my time defending it's continuity since it codifies my ultimate defense.
 
Amendment II text in bold
What I believe it means in standard type


A well regulated militia

We are to be as proficient as possible with the arms we have because it is our duty to...


being necessary to the security of a free state

protect/defend/preserve our lives, liberty and individual pursuits of happiness against anyone or anything, within or without, that represents a threat to it. In order to do that,


the right of the people to keep and bear arms

every free citizen has the right to own arms of their choosing, to carry them in a manner of their choosing and to bear them against any threat in the most effective manner they can; any place at any time, with...


shall not be infringed

absolutely no interference, impeding, restriction, regulation or prohibition by government...none.
 
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The right to bear arms..........arms of any kind, arms of any design, arms of any caliber, arms of any power, arms that fly, arms that float, arms that roll, etc........ shall not be infringed. That's what it means to me. How we got to where we are now sure does beat me. We need to do everything in our power to prevent our 2-A rights from further deteriorating.

The LV story is very strange. Even if that Paddock nutcase acted on his own, it's still strange. Former IRS auditor killing all of those innocent country music fans....... that's the only part of that tragedy that makes sense to me. The rest of it is incredibly weird.
 
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well, to me, the 2A is an amendment that can be repealed.
which means-to-me i should spend my money and my time defending it's continuity since it codifies my ultimate defense.

Except even if it were repealed, we still have the inherent and natural Right to be armed.

Our Rights do not flow from government, or from pieces of parchment decorated in ink.

Our Rights exist outside of all those things, and predate the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, and these United States themselves.

They have existed since Almighty God breathed the Breath of Life into Adam's nostrils - and as such are beyond the moral and just authority of any temporal power to abridge.
 
I personally believe that the 2A allows a citizen to have access to any and all firearms in production. Single shot, revolver, semi auto, full auto....it doesn't matter....any citizen of the USA should have access to any weapon they an afford. It should not matter why that person wants to own a weapon past the want itself.
The 2A is already being walked all over by the laws in place today. The fact that we cannot freely build and distribute any and all weapons infringes on the 2A. If the military has it, the general public should be able to have it as well. Without that, you've got an uneven playing field that leans in favor of the government which is the exact opposite of what was intended.
 
arms protect the People from abuse of power by any who intend to rule them rather than govern by their consent.
This is mostly what I think.

I also think of the second as the canary in a coal mine. If government doesn’t plan to interfere with our other rights, then it has little to fear from the second. When government assaults the second it is just the first step to achieving another goal. This why I never understand why journalists are so happy to dump on the second, because shortly after it gets watered down the assualut on the first will begin in earnest.
 
People are continually plucking at the thread that is the Second Amendment, thinking that they can yank it out without affecting the fabric comprising our Republic.

They are wrong.
 
What does it mean to me?

To put it simple, it's the teeth behind the three most important words in the U.S. Constitution:

"WE THE PEOPLE..."

Every politician who attempts to sublimate the U.S. Constitution should live in mortal fear of a tap on the shoulder accompanied by a soft *ahem* delivered by a nation full of armed citizens holding a copy of that Constitution with the endangered parts highlighted for his attention.

If freedom and rights weren't THAT important to people, then many wars throughout human history would never have been fought over them and institutions such as dictatorships and slavery would be accepted as the normal and never contested.
 
To me the 2nd is about having a voice. As SPM brought out, the founding fathers were all about checks and balances. No one authority was or is to have complete control. In Chinese there's a phrase that refers to someone either having or not having a "fist". "They will not listen to him, because he doesn't have a fist." This refers to power.
Those on the left, when talking about guns and government, thinks it's about over throwing the government. I think it's about the ability to resist the government if we do not agree. It's about having a voice that demands the respect to be heard. It's about having a fist.
 
This is mostly what I think.

I also think of the second as the canary in a coal mine. If government doesn’t plan to interfere with our other rights, then it has little to fear from the second. When government assaults the second it is just the first step to achieving another goal. This why I never understand why journalists are so happy to dump on the second, because shortly after it gets watered down the assualut on the first will begin in earnest.

Because the journalists, or what passes for that now, think they will be protected on the winning side. A little history would show them what actually happens to the press after a socialist takeover, but history is full of badthink and uncomfortable contradictions to true socialist believers, so the useful idiots will realize they've been had right as soon as all the threats (like gun owners) ahead of them have been picked off.
 
I lost a FB friend last week, former co worker and very liberal. She made a comment about their hunting guns in the closet were fine but "those guns" have no place in society in reference to Las Vegas. Apparently she also knew one of the victims. I reminder her the 2A never has and never will be about hunting. Guess that little tidbit was the last straw. Oh well.
 
It's already been put more eloquently than I could, but in short it is about power belonging to the people, both collectively and as an individual. As has been said, it's an equalizer, against government, against an individual, against any threat to the basic inherent rights to life. There is an expression about the two ways to influence others are through reason and force. The 2A expresses the force side of this equation. It is the idea of guaranteeing the ability to , "so long as you harm none, do as you will".

The debate over gun control is as old as time, even predations guns, because it's about force and power and who should wield it and for whatbpurpose. The book The Once and Future King is the story of a King Arthur grappling with this concept and how he evolved from the notion of "might makes right" to "might for right" (which is what many desire today via things like police) to realizing that the notion is impossible because power always corrupts and leads to ruin.

I believe we've gotten to where we are today because people have been too unwilling to use force when it's been necessary. We've been too convinced that we must use only our voice against the government. We've been told that it as long as there was some sort of vote, somewhere in the process, that we must tolerate the infringement. People have been too convinced in the belief in the superstition of authority.
 
Specifically to the question posed, What does the 2A mean to me? Nothing.

Theoretically, it was intended to confine the government. And it was added to the Constitution just to promote ratification. The fact that it was left out, or not even considered, into the main body should give everyone pause regarding the original intent. Except for Jefferson and Henry (both notably absent in Philadelphia), that gang of government even then, had no intention of being "confined". Escape artists, all of them then...all of them now.

I'll recommend (again) Royce's Hologram of Liberty.

The 2nd doesn't mean anything to me, because it wasn't written for me. It was written to bind the criminals who would seek to rule me, and they're wriggling out of it. As expected.

Not only can't this government give me the right to defend myself, it can't give me Liberty. Those things I'll just claim. If the "consent" is mine to give, it is mine to withdraw.
 
Now, apparently, there was a bruhaha that got panties wedged to the point that someone quit? Why wasn't I invited? Whose nose got bloodied?
 
Thanks for the info. Eff the Fudds. My answer to them and their concern trolling is this: BFYTW.
 
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The issue with the FUDD in question applies here too. Ask that FUDD what the second means to him and you would likely have an interesting answer. Yesterday I slogged through that thread. From what I could tell he was in the camp of "we should surrender bump stocks as a concession and like it." He thought bump stocks were "skirting the law" and he waved the precious 'law" flag with vigor yet was discovered as not being so "lawful" when it came to owning a device designed to help you break a certain set of traffic "laws".
 
A Fudd.

I'll send the link to the post in question, for it set sail to the Isle of Piracy...
Well-spanked. Appears Freedom For Me, But Not For Thee might be his motto. Bet that little public beatdown had some of his fellow trolls scrambling to cover their tracks.

Any time you battle a troll to the point he quits, you should get all his "likes".
 
Interesting thread, and one that has made many of divisions between people. The best part, and a win for everyone here is, that I haven't seen the "but..." posted yet. Even better, I suspect from this crowd that we won't.

We must be doing something right.
 
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I support the 2A but, if they come after my guns I'll do a helluva lot more than support it verbally!
 
The issue with the FUDD in question applies here too. Ask that FUDD what the second means to him and you would likely have an interesting answer. Yesterday I slogged through that thread. From what I could tell he was in the camp of "we should surrender bump stocks as a concession and like it." He thought bump stocks were "skirting the law" and he waved the precious 'law" flag with vigor yet was discovered as not being so "lawful" when it came to owning a device designed to help you break a certain set of traffic "laws".

Don't forget about "self-policing"! That chapped my butt as much as anything else he said.
 
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Don't forget about "self-policing"! That chapped my butt as much as anything else he said.

Yeah....the idea that we should voluntarily live "less free" because of what someone may do or could to is anathema to the principles upon which this country was founded.

That, and the idea that "flaunting" one's freedom is a bad thing in a nation that proclaims itself Land of the Free was baffling to me.
 
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