Why you need to practice at 3’ and why “get off me guns” are a bad idea

keepcalmandcarryon

keepcalmandcarryon

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Good video illustrates why even at 3’ you can miss. If this officer was pocket carrying a J frame or LCP she probably would have been dead. Don’t rely on that one shot at 3’ to do the job or you “can’t miss at that range”.
It also makes a good case for high capacity micro 9’s.
 
Just my opinion here so you get what you paid for.

In the first place backing up is a bad idea. It puts you off balance and in a defensive posture. Draw if you feel the need, Plant your feet and shoot if he continues to approach.
 
Schattenreiter said:
Just my opinion here so you get what you paid for.

In the first place backing up is a bad idea. It puts you off balance and in a defensive posture. Draw if you feel the need, Plant your feet and shoot if he continues to approach.
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Standing your ground in this situation is the worse thing you can do and this scenario is a textbook case why they teach to create distance between you and your attacker.
First the guy has a hand weapon so as long as you are more than arm’s distance away you are safe. Why help your attacker close the distance?
Second even a few steps back will give you time to draw your weapon. If you ever timed your draw you will know even 0.2 seconds is significant.
Specifically in this situation if she wasn’t backing up I don’t think she would have got her pistol out of the holster.
 
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I don't see how any of the evidence presented in the video here matches your opinions, except for the part about missing at 3'. Pretty clear from the video that after being whacked with a hammer a few times and knocked down that marksmanship might stuffer.
 
keepcalmandcarryon said:
First the guy has a hand weapon so as long as you are more than arm’s distance away you are safe.
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Incorrect, I feared for my life and there was a credible threat to my life.

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Two hands on the firearm, keep it close. Agree to move sideways and keep distance.
 
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Jayne said:
I don't see how any of the evidence presented in the video here matches your opinions, except for the part about missing at 3'. Pretty clear from the video that after being whacked with a hammer a few times and knocked down that marksmanship might stuffer.
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I feel drawing from a pocket is slower than drawing from appendix or 4 o’clock. Second I highly doubt it can be done back peddling if it is in your front pocket.
It is something we can test on the clock next time we are at the range.
 
keepcalmandcarryon said:
I feel drawing from a pocket is slower than drawing from appendix or 4 o’clock. Second I highly doubt it can be done back peddling if it is in your front pocket.
It is something we can test on the clock next time we are at the range.
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The officer in the video was drawing from her pocket? With a revolver?
 
Exspiravit said:
The officer in the video was drawing from her pocket? With a revolver?
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She most likely had an OWB holster and could not get it out in time. Most likely pocket carry draw is going to be slower. Have you put your pocket carry draw on the clock? I could be wrong?
 
keepcalmandcarryon said:
She most likely had an OWB holster and could not get it out in time. Most likely pocket carry draw is going to be slower. Have you put your pocket carry draw on the clock? I could be wrong?
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I don't have a pocket carry, but this video does not support your premise. She was slow to react to a credible threat and she panicked once she was in it.
 
keepcalmandcarryon said:
Specifically in this situation if she wasn’t backing up I don’t think she would have got her pistol out of the holster.
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Her pistol should have been out of the holster when his trailing foot left the porch. Instead, she reached for her radio to call for backup, as per her training/orders.

"Don't escalate. Call for backup."

And when he started running toward her, her mind wouldn't accept what was about to happen.

The "Deer caught in the headlights" syndrome.
 
There was something similar to this happen in Iredell county a few weeks ago. Warrant officer goes to house guy comes out with crow bar raised above his head to hit him. Deputy a massive man starts fighting with him and while on the ground the subject starts going for his gun. The combination of both going for the gun and a finger got into the trigger firing the weapon shooting the subject in the leg. He apparently kept fighting after but deputy got him in cuffs. The deputy is one of the nicest guys you'd ever meet, swat trained big MF. His nickname for the longest was "I pick things up."

This is a good look at what officers will be facing in the next 10-15 years and the constant second guessing themselves because it's not a gun. This case looks like she should have pullled as soon as she saw the hammer but hey he didn't have a weapon is a problem for the media.
 
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keepcalmandcarryon said:
Have you put your pocket carry draw on the clock?
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Me personally, no. It's why I spend a few days a week getting hurt in fight club, learning to deal with the ambush without having to rely on getting a pocket gun out. It's more of a magic talisman, I'll admit that. :)

keepcalmandcarryon said:
I could be wrong?
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You can see the gun in her hand when the guy gets there, she had the opportunity to mag dump him right here:

1692197262759.png

Almost a firing grip, finger already on the trigger, can't get anymore ready than that for a non-front line soldier cop (she's a detective so a modern day Dee Dee McCall with a better manicure).

Not sure how this plays into "pocket guns don't work" or "making a case for high capacity micro 9s". Neither of those were present, and neither draw speed nor caliber/capacity were an issue.

Not knowing how to actually fight is the issue here.
 
Jayne said:
Me personally, no. It's why I spend a few days a week getting hurt in fight club, learning to deal with the ambush without having to rely on getting a pocket gun out. It's more of a magic talisman, I'll admit that. :)



You can see the gun in her hand when the guy gets there, she had the opportunity to mag dump him right here:

View attachment 658468

Almost a firing grip, finger already on the trigger, can't get anymore ready than that for a non-front line soldier cop (she's a detective so a modern day Dee Dee McCall with a better manicure).

Not sure how this plays into "pocket guns don't work" or "making a case for high capacity micro 9s". Neither of those were present, and neither draw speed nor caliber/capacity were an issue.

Not knowing how to actually fight is the issue here.
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I think she needed to have her gun out at least a second or two earlier. She should have prioritized drawing the pistol over calling for help. Get the pistol out and ready-on-target, then call for help. The guy is advancing on you with a weapon in hand. Seriously, if that's not enough of a sign of hostile intent and an threat to life, idk what is.
 
Jayne said:
You can see the gun in her hand when the guy gets there, she had the opportunity to mag dump him right here:

Not sure how this plays into "pocket guns don't work" or "making a case for high capacity micro 9s". Neither of those were present, and neither draw speed nor caliber/capacity were an issue.
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Facts just get in the way of a good rant.
 
alpharius said:
I think she needed to have her gun out at least a second or two earlier. She should have prioritized drawing the pistol over calling for help. Get the pistol out and ready-on-target, then call for help. The guy is advancing on you with a weapon in hand. Seriously, if that's not enough of a sign of hostile intent and an threat to life, idk what is.
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Again it is the second guessing because it's not a gun. It's in their heads all of the officers worry about it. Training is telling them one thing and officers are facing real world consequences for their training.
Get Off My Lawn said:
I do not approve of women being street cops. 99.8% of them are not built for combat against a man.
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I 100% agree with this statement. The problem is that when they are proven inferior on duty the departments are so short handed they just move them. Just like this woman I'd bet she was a detective because of a prior incident playing a part. Hey I'm not saying there aren't women that are perfectly capable, I'm saying there just aren't as many that are perfectly capable. That said the meanest trooper I ever met was a 5ft tall female who would simply walk the floor with a man. But those are even further between than a serviceable body.
 
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keepcalmandcarryon said:
Standing your ground in this situation is the worse thing you can do and this scenario is a textbook case why they teach to create distance between you and your attacker.
First the guy has a hand weapon so as long as you are more than arm’s distance away you are safe. Why help your attacker close the distance?
Second even a few steps back will give you time to draw your weapon. If you ever timed your draw you will know even 0.2 seconds is significant.
Specifically in this situation if she wasn’t backing up I don’t think she would have got her pistol out of the holster.
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As I stated initially, my opinion and worth what you paid for it. She was advancing toward him when se noticed the hammer. She instructed him to put it down. At that point she should have drwn her weapon. Instead she fumbled with either her body cam or something on the front of her body. Her hand was clearly in view of the camera. Had she not done that and drawn her weapon instead she would have had it out and been on target as he rounded the fence.


Plenty of time to shoot be for he closed the distance.

Maybe you are better than me but I'm pretty sure I can't hit diddly backing up.
 
In reality we are just so screwed as a nation.

People, in combat, are keyed up that they may be attacked and therefore much more likely to react with quick and deadly force.

The cops that go out keyed up are the ones that shoot people they shouldn’t.

The cops that go out thinking they’ll never need to pull their weapon react too slowly and get dead.

I don’t have the answer. What I do know is that most cops are barely proficient with their firearms and do not train like they should. Cops are trained to use overwhelming force which is why she called for backup.

The way to stop brain freeze is to train until you have muscle memory. That way you don’t consciously have to decide to draw and aim. Only decision is to fire. The gun is already on target.
 
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Get Off My Lawn said:
Like some fire depts, If she can toss a 200lb man on her back, climb down a ladder and carry him away from the threat, she’s qualified to continue training.
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Really, totally agree. The bar was put in place for a reason. No need to lower it to accommodate "x".
 
Schattenreiter said:
At that point she should have drwn her weapon. Instead she fumbled with either her body cam or something on the front of her body. Her hand was clearly in view of the camera.
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Using her right hand to activate a lapel mic? She says something to someone on the radio, and she's probably got 10000 reps of hitting that mic with her right and and 4 reps of drawing the gun with that hand so training says to use the mic first and then panic.

Surprised they don't teach/mandate cops to use the off hand to hit the mic on the off-side. Keeps the weapon hand free and keeps the arm from blocking the body cam.
 
Jayne said:
Using her right hand to activate a lapel mic? She says something to someone on the radio, and she's probably got 10000 reps of hitting that mic with her right and and 4 reps of drawing the gun with that hand so training says to use the mic first and then panic.

Surprised they don't teach/mandate cops to use the off hand to hit the mic on the off-side. Keeps the weapon hand free and keeps the arm from blocking the body cam.
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Time to retrain.
 
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