Working up loads with match vs hunting projectiles

mathandbbsauce

mathandbbsauce

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I mainly shoot for hunting, with range stuff just for fun. I have no plans to do any sort of competitive long range shooting - really I would do that to increase my ethical range. Realistically, I'm not pulling the trigger past 200ish yds right now. Being confident in accuracy/energy for ethical shots is something I don't want to second guess.

I'm working up some loads for a .30-06 and a .308 so I can figure out what performs well. I've set up my first few sleeves with Hornady Match and Hornady SST to test seating depths and a couple powders. Am I wasting my time using match projectiles to make this determination? Can I make inferences on optimal loading from match bullets and extrapolate them to expanding bullets? At what range would I need to only make inferences on only the proposed SSTs I'd be using?

PS: tried looking for an equivalent question being answered and couldn't find quite the question I was trying to ask; forgive if this has been addressed elsewhere.
 
You work a load up for each projectile, some are close some are not. I shoot berger hybrids for everything, and tried their elite hunters and charge weight and seating depth was different. I practice just like I’m going to hunt, zero difference in my ammo.
 
There can be significant differences between bullet types. For example, the ogive can be at different lengths which affects seating depths. Other differences as well. But like @Jimbob78 said, work up separate loads for each bullet.
 
Thanks guys. I made four of each of my powder/load/projectile/seating combinations with a plan to shoot three and keep one as a reference to confirm measurements. Is this a smart way to go about it or should I tackle one aspect at a time?
 
mathandbbsauce said:
Thanks guys. I made four of each of my powder/load/projectile/seating combinations with a plan to shoot three and keep one as a reference to confirm measurements. Is this a smart way to go about it or should I tackle one aspect at a time?
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I’d change one variable at a time, powder charge, seating depth, projectile, primer, etc, not a cluster.
 
Jimbob78 said:
I’d change one variable at a time, powder charge, seating depth, projectile, primer, etc, not a cluster.
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Got it. Well, I'll treat these first 40 or so as a broad spectrum approach to at least getting close to the optimal. Dang stats degree broke my brain, I can only think about it as designing an experiment lol.

Thanks for the advice folks
 
mathandbbsauce said:
Got it. Well, I'll treat these first 40 or so as a broad spectrum approach to at least getting close to the optimal. Dang stats degree broke my brain, I can only think about it as designing an experiment lol.

Thanks for the advice folks
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Think your brain is broken now, try changing a bunch of variables at the same time 🤣. That will drive you to the nut house quickly.
 
You work your load up for the bullet. Period. Choose the bullet you're going to work with, then change the variables from there. Something that may sound very similar like a 178gr ELD-X is very different from a 178gr ELD-M. The M is considerably longer and skinnier. If you're trying to fit that into a standard length 308 COL then you'll have far greater pressure, given the same powder charge, compared to the same COL with the X.

Only change one thing at a time. Don't use mixed brass for anything precision. Don't mix primers. One thing, that's it.

Example, I'm trying to work up my pet precision load with better brass. The new brass I'm trying out is 50fps slower, on average, with everything else the same. That means I'm going to need to add, roughly, another .5gr of powder. Half a grain over for simply changing brass.
 
Average Joe said:
Think your brain is broken now, try changing a bunch of variables at the same time 🤣. That will drive you to the nut house quickly.
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^^^this...and you'll be saying "my head hurts" then #&@^$*#,#@^@^....etc.
Change one variable...
Make a dummy round sans primer / powder when you get the right load. Do that for several bolt guns I have. It will get you there quicker, when changing projectiles. Remember when changing Manufacturers the shape (ogive) which someone mentioned will change even though the weights are the same.
Mainly Bergers here also, Sierra MK and Lapua.

OCW...( as mentioned )

OCW reloading instructions

OCW reloading overview and instructions
www.ocwreloading.com


-Snoopz
 
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Realistically I’m shooting a stock 1975 Rem 700 in .30-06 and making a deal with a kind fellow to get a Ruger American in .308 (I’ve been using my beater Rem 770 till now, don’t laugh at me) with 3x9x50 Nikon Monarchs on both. All I really want is to make a deer fall over 400yds and in and not risk an unethical shot.

I think I need to just clench my teeth and go ahead with committing to the SST even though it’s a little pricy at volume. Is it dumb for me to build loads for 180gr? Mostly thinking BC, energy rather than seeing how far out I can touch a steel plate. There may be a day I get the confidence/resources for that but for now I’m trying to shoot limits in both NC and FL. (I’m a big guy, need a lot of jerky)
 
Snoopz said:
^^^this...and you'll be saying "my head hurts" then #&@^$*#,#@^@^....etc.
Change one variable...
Make a dummy round sans primer / powder when you get the right load. Do that for several bolt guns I have. It will get you there quicker, when changing projectiles. Remember when changing Manufacturers the shape (ogive) which someone mentioned will change even though the weights are the same.
Mainly Bergers here also, Sierra MK and Lapua.

OCW...( as mentioned )

OCW reloading instructions

OCW reloading overview and instructions
www.ocwreloading.com


-Snoopz
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I didn’t even think about setting up a dummy round instead of spending a charge and a primer. Turns out it is me who is the dummy!
 
My spring project is .308 with SST 165gr. Blue Collar reloading sells a 100 projectile box for $36.95 , And I just picked VarGet powder.
Sounds like you plan to develop 180gr load.
mathandbbsauce said:
I think I need to just clench my teeth and go ahead with committing to the SST even though it’s a little pricy at volume. Is it dumb for me to build loads for 180gr? Mostly thinking BC, energy rather than seeing how far out I can touch a steel plate.
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I recently switched from 168gr Nosler Ballistic Tips to 165gr Tipped Game Kings in .308. I’m running 43.0gr of RE15 with CCI large rifle primers (non magnum).

It depends on what twist rates you’ve got. My dad’s .30-06 is older and is a 1:12 preferring 150gr projectiles. My .308 has a 1:10 and will shoot 147 through 180gr reliably (haven’t gone heavier)

The Tipped Game King is extremely accurate and was printing cloverleafs at 100yds when I was testing charge weights. It also dropped a running boar in his tracks around 75yds a few weeks ago

@mathandbbsauce if you want a higher BC and heavier bullet for longer range game, look at the 178gr Hornady ELD-X. There are also factory offerings of it if you want to test a small batch without buying a whole box of bullets.

Here’s Ultimate Reloader harvesting a cow elk at 405yd with a .30-06 and 178gr ELD-X

 
I got lucky with my 7-08. 130g Sierra Match Kings (HPBT) printed the same group as their Game Kings and Speer flat based lead tipped spire points. I wasn't able to find those Speer bullets again.
 
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308 makes my head hurt sometimes, not because of anything other than so many different firearms, bolts, semi, different barrels / twist rates, small rifle / large rifle primer.
Powders here are IMR''s 4064, 4895, 8208..
Ditched Vargot long ago, hit or miss availability, time to develop other loads with different powders. Not bad with 30.06 just plain bolts, Mdl 70's, 1903's nd Garands
Bullets in the Garand is Bergers, the Kreiger barreled M1A's are Bergers with some 168 SMK's, the bolts are all Bergers mostly with some Lapua..
The old Rem 600 is Sierra ( yep a 600 )

-Snoopz
 
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Just went ahead and grabbed some more 180 SSTs. I reckon saving $0.06/rd is not really gonna move the needle at the volume I shoot, so I might as well commit and see about working things up with respect to powder and then seating depth.
 
If had a 700 30-06 with a factory barrel and a bunch of 180 grain bullets, I would load up 10-15 with 55 grains of H4350 to what length the Hornady manual suggests and see how they shoot. I’ve had several 30-06s and that load shot well in all of them.
 
Just put my first reloads down range and 1) I’ve never been as nervous around a gun in my life as that first trigger squeeze and 2) you were all right I had overthought it. Gonna put together 6 sticks of 10 rounds for a couple different powders matching up velo high/low (2 powders) but with only one projectile. This is probably preaching to the choir but it felt pretty great to be able to bring out rounds I know I can recreate indefinitely and I put a lot of love into.
 
mathandbbsauce said:
Just put my first reloads down range and 1) I’ve never been as nervous around a gun in my life as that first trigger squeeze and 2) you were all right I had overthought it. Gonna put together 6 sticks of 10 rounds for a couple different powders matching up velo high/low (2 powders) but with only one projectile. This is probably preaching to the choir but it felt pretty great to be able to bring out rounds I know I can recreate indefinitely and I put a lot of love into.
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Welcome to the addiction. ;)
 
NC-rifle said:
Were any of your initial .308 loads with Varget and the 180gr SST?
What COL did you try?

View attachment 741574
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I'm seating them right around 2.75-2.77" - I think 2.74" is right at the top lip of the cannelure and I didn't want to do a hard crimp. To be fair though, with how I had designed my experiment, I don't think seating depth was something I would have practically noticed. I had used Hodgdon's Varget recipe and topped at 43gr. Next sets (I made them last night, can't stop!) are 38.5gr and 40.9gr seated to 2.75" COAL.
 
mathandbbsauce said:
I'm seating them right around 2.75-2.77" - I think 2.74" is right at the top lip of the cannelure and I didn't want to do a hard crimp.
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I noticed a similar cannelure position on my Hornady 165gr SST. From my measurements:
C.O.A.L. = 2.005 + 0.715 + 0.030 (below cannelure) = 2.750 I loaded some for load development at that length and it is inside the cannelure.
My position of the cannelure may not be perfect, eye-balling the caliper jaws.
The length of the 180gr (1.355) minus the 165gr (1.270) puts the 180gr 0.085 further into the case (less powder space).
That may be one reason the Hornady book publishes 1.6 gr less Varget for the 180gr SST loading.

Hornady_SST_308_165gr-dimscrop.jpg
 
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mathandbbsauce said:
I mainly shoot for hunting, with range stuff just for fun. I have no plans to do any sort of competitive long range shooting - really I would do that to increase my ethical range. Realistically, I'm not pulling the trigger past 200ish yds right now. Being confident in accuracy/energy for ethical shots is something I don't want to second guess.

I'm working up some loads for a .30-06 and a .308 so I can figure out what performs well. I've set up my first few sleeves with Hornady Match and Hornady SST to test seating depths and a couple powders. Am I wasting my time using match projectiles to make this determination? Can I make inferences on optimal loading from match bullets and extrapolate them to expanding bullets? At what range would I need to only make inferences on only the proposed SSTs I'd be using?

PS: tried looking for an equivalent question being answered and couldn't find quite the question I was trying to ask; forgive if this has been addressed elsewhere.
Click to expand...
I've found that my Sierra Tipped Game King (aka Gamechanger) and their tipped match king were spot on and could go between them (at the same weight). Then again, why bother- as others mentioned, you build a load for a rifle/component set and since the price is about the same between hunting and match bullets, no need to add another variable.
 
Snoopz said:
308 makes my head hurt sometimes, not because of anything other than so many different firearms, bolts, semi, different barrels / twist rates, small rifle / large rifle primer.
Powders here are IMR''s 4064, 4895, 8208..
Ditched Vargot long ago, hit or miss availability, time to develop other loads with different powders. Not bad with 30.06 just plain bolts, Mdl 70's, 1903's nd Garands
Bullets in the Garand is Bergers, the Kreiger barreled M1A's are Bergers with some 168 SMK's, the bolts are all Bergers mostly with some Lapua..
The old Rem 600 is Sierra ( yep a 600 )

-Snoopz
Click to expand...

I’d try 4895. Meters better than 4064 and I just wasn’t a fan of 8208.

4895 got me excellent velocities and very good groups in heavy 223, 224V and 308.
 
11B CIB said:
I’d try 4895. Meters better than 4064 and I just wasn’t a fan of 8208.

4895 got me excellent velocities and very good groups in heavy 223, 224V and 308.
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used IMR-4895 in 223, 308, 30.06, 7mm.08 and some others.
really don't have metering issues with 4064, using Harrell measure use it in a bunch of cartridges, 25.06, 220 Swift, 308, 30.06, 243, 244 Rem, 22-250 and more then again 4895 is the all round powder, remember it was surplus long...long ago

-Snoopz
 
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Mainly I need to figure out 2-3 powders to dedicate myself to. For better or worse, Varget seems to work pretty darn well at least in .308. It turned out pretty good groups at basically every velo I loaded it to. So now I guess I need to figure out if 4895 will cut it for .30-06. Again, all I need is to make a deer not alive reliably at 400 yds and in (and maybe some other big game one day). Simple man, simple dreams.
 
mathandbbsauce said:
Mainly I need to figure out 2-3 powders to dedicate myself to. For better or worse, Varget seems to work pretty darn well at least in .308. It turned out pretty good groups at basically every velo I loaded it to. So now I guess I need to figure out if 4895 will cut it for .30-06. Again, all I need is to make a deer not alive reliably at 400 yds and in (and maybe some other big game one day). Simple man, simple dreams.
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Once you have a 1/2 moa load or better, 400 yards reliably is nothing more than a lot of practice at 600 yards in a lot of different wind conditions. You will be golden at 400 then.
 
mathandbbsauce said:
Mainly I need to figure out 2-3 powders to dedicate myself to. For better or worse, Varget seems to work pretty darn well at least in .308. It turned out pretty good groups at basically every velo I loaded it to. So now I guess I need to figure out if 4895 will cut it for .30-06. Again, all I need is to make a deer not alive reliably at 400 yds and in (and maybe some other big game one day). Simple man, simple dreams.
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H4895 is a very versatile powder. (H4895 more so than IMR4895). It is considered one of the best for 30-06 for M1 Garands.

Recently, I tried it in 35 Whelen and it performed better than I expected.
 
Went to the range to put another set on paper. For .308 in with Varget, I got good results (1"-.5" at 100yd) and group size correlated between 180gr SST and 178gr ELD-X. So, those appear to be interchangeable. However... couldn't get my .30-06 running IMR 4350 to group anything less than 3"-3.5". So, it's back to the drawing board on .30-06 while I wait for a real COAL gauge. And honestly, while I'm scrapping .30-06, I really am thinking about doing the same for .308. Find COAL, seat that - .075mm, then get powder load right, then move back in 0.75mm increments until I find a node.

And (embarrassingly) I probably need to take another pass at floating my 06. When the barrel has 4-5 rounds through it, I can't run a doubled slip of paper to the action like I can cold.
 
mathandbbsauce said:
I'm seating them right around 2.75-2.77" - I think 2.74" is right at the top lip of the cannelure and I didn't want to do a hard crimp. To be fair though, with how I had designed my experiment, I don't think seating depth was something I would have practically noticed. I had used Hodgdon's Varget recipe and topped at 43gr. Next sets (I made them last night, can't stop!) are 38.5gr and 40.9gr seated to 2.75" COAL.
Click to expand...

mathandbbsauce said:
Went to the range to put another set on paper. For .308 in with Varget, I got good results (1"-.5" at 100yd) and group size correlated between 180gr SST and 178gr ELD-X. So, those appear to be interchangeable. ...
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So, no over pressure signs at 43.0gr (.308)? That should be close to a compressed load with the long 180 SST.
And did you shoot 38.5gr and 40.9gr this past weekend? Sounds like good group size with those light loads.
 
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NC-rifle said:
So, no over pressure signs at 43.0gr (.308)? That should be close to a compressed load with the long 180 SST.
And did you shoot 38.5gr and 40.9gr this past weekend? Sounds like good group size with those light loads.
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It was definitely a crunchy load at 43gr seated to cannelure. But, no over-pressure signs and I'm planning on going back out to max COAL so it won't be compressed there.
 
I shoot 155 Berger VLD Hunt and 155 VLD Match with 4064 powder in my 308. Both shoot exactly the same, hunt with one and target shoot with the other.
 
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