WW2 history: some numbers

Chuckman

Chuckman

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At work, kinda bored. Oh, I have things to do, I just don't want to do them. So I am playing around. I find the sheer size of WW2 just incredible, so here are some numbers:

The army was at 190,000 in 1939, swelled to 1.4 million by December, 1941. By the end of WW2 the army was 8.2 million. I wonder how many basic training bases there were to handle the throughput. Anyone know?

The navy started out at 125,000 in 1939, 337,000 in December, 1941. By the end of WW2, almost 3.4 million.

The navy started with 790 ships (all types) in December, 1941, in August, 1945 they had 6,768.

16 million people serves in WW2.

I cannot fathom the production explosion in facilities, camps, bases, plants, shipyards, etc., that happened so quickly.
 
A little more about army basic training:

By 1940, 4 weeks of basic training and additional occupational training was given to recruits by their assigned regiment.

In March 1941, replacement training centers assumed the basic training responsibilities.

By June of 1941, there were 21 replacement training centers giving 13 weeks of basic training to recruits in order that regiments and divisions could carry on training for combat unburdened by giving individual instruction to new men.

Immediately after Pearl Harbor, all units except Armor, Infantry, and Signal Corps cut their replacement training programs from 13 to 8 weeks.

In February 1942, Field Artillery and Cavalry replacement training centers staggered training to get on a 13-week basis after 15 July 1942.

All replacement training center courses were standardized at 13 weeks late in 1942.

The 13-week cycle was broken down into 3 weeks of basic training and 10 weeks of technical training for all specialists in Infantry, Field Artillery, and Cavalry replacement training centers.

A 14-week cycle was approved in June 1943. The additional week was used for tactical training in the field.

In August 1943, the training cycle was established as 17 weeks with the 3 added weeks of instruction devoted to small unit training.

Heavy losses in the Battle of the Bulge caused the training program to be cut from 17 to 15 weeks in December 1944, but the 17-week cycle was reestablished in May 1945 and remained standard until the end of the war with Japan.

-Extracts from The Personnel Replacement System in the United States Army (1954).

I find the bolded/italicized fascinating.
 
USMC boot camp was always at Parris Island or San Diego, 16 weeks long, 8 weeks 'in garrison', 8 weeks in training. At the beginning of WW2, boot camp was 4 weeks at Parris Island and 6 weeks at San Diego, increasing to 8 weeks (prior to moving to the field).

Navy boot camps were at Great Lakes, Il., San Diego, Bainbridge, MD., Newport, RI., then added Norfolk, VA., Samson, NY., and Farragut, ID. for the war.
 
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I don't know how many temporary camps there were but the History Guy has an episode on one that sprang up overnight in a rural area, pretty interesting. My father was drafted in April 1942 to the AAF and did his BT at a commandeered hotel in Tampa FL and his AIT at Buckley field in Denver. He said his BT was mainly close order drill and the rifle and pistol range. He qualfied as a Norden bombsight and Sperry autopilot tech.
 
Chuckman said:
The infamous shaved heads at boot camp, not a thing to ensure conformity, take away identity (it evolved into that), but started because of the numbers of people who came to boot camp with lice.
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It was still happening when I did BT in 75
 
Chuckman said:
The infamous shaved heads at boot camp, not a thing to ensure conformity, take away identity (it evolved into that), but started because of the numbers of people who came to boot camp with lice.
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Chuckman said:
USMC boot camp was always at Parris Island or San Diego, 16 weeks long, 8 weeks 'in garrison', 8 weeks in training. At the beginning of WW2, boot camp was 4 weeks at Parris Island and 6 weeks at San Diego, increasing to 8 weeks (prior to moving to the field).

Navy boot camps were at Great Lakes, Il., San Diego, Bainbridge, MD., Newport, RI., then added Norfolk, VA., Samson, NY., and Farragut, ID. for the war.
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My Father went to Paris Island as a Navy Corpsman in 1933.
 
Regarding heavy losses in Europe, big Army combed surplus ground personnel from the USAAF in 44 and transferred them to the infantry. My dad got swept up when he was at Langley field (no one cared about the Norden by then) issued his field gear and M1 carbine and was on a manifest when he was pulled by a clerk from his hometown. Undoubtedly saved his life.
 
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A nice PDF about Parris Island. Interesting trivia: it had a school to pull up the, ah, less intellectual Marine recruits to a 6th grade level.
 

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rufrdr said:
Regarding heavy losses in Europe, big Army combed surplus ground personnel from the USAAF in 44 and transferred them to the infantry. My dad got swept up when he was at Langley field (no one cared about the Norden by then) issued his field gear and M1 carbine and was on a manifest when he was pulled by a clerk from his hometown. Undoubtedly saved his life.
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I had an uncle was was a turn-wrench for the AAF, went to airborne school, and to the 101st as a combat engineer. All he really said was "I went where I was told to go and did what I was told to do."
 
rufrdr said:
Regarding heavy losses in Europe, big Army combed surplus ground personnel from the USAAF in 44 and transferred them to the infantry. My dad got swept up when he was at Langley field (no one cared about the Norden by then) issued his field gear and M1 carbine and was on a manifest when he was pulled by a clerk from his hometown. Undoubtedly saved his life.
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They also tore apart units that had been training together for some time and threw them into the replacement pool. My grandfather’s division the 106th was gutted this way before they shipped out to Europe. The experienced NCO’s and a lot of the most fit men were yanked away. I don’t think they pulled the officers in the same way though I’m not certain.
 
My father was 32 and very badly nearsighted. He would have been about blind without his glasses. If he got sent to the front I doubt he would have come back.
 
rufrdr said:
My father was 32 and very badly nearsighted. He would have been about blind without his glasses. If he got sent to the front I doubt he would have come back.
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When the war started the military was very particular about the physical 'fitness' of draftees, both in terms of 'real' physical fitness as well as the health of the draftee. The last year and a half or so, they were drafting men without all their fingers or toes, blind in one eye, legally blind, deaf in one ear, heart murmurs, some types of cancer, etc.
 
Mack270 said:
They also tore apart units that had been training together for some time and threw them into the replacement pool. My grandfather’s division the 106th was gutted this way before they shipped out to Europe. The experienced NCO’s and a lot of the most fit men were yanked away. I don’t think they pulled the officers in the same way though I’m not certain.
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That was well represented in one of the episodes of Band of Brothers, and happened to every unit. Some units were deemed combat ineffective and would have to pull back for a period of time, and by the time they went back into the line had 80% replacements.
 
Chuckman said:
When the war started the military was very particular about the physical 'fitness' of draftees, both in terms of 'real' physical fitness as well as the health of the draftee. The last year and a half or so, they were drafting men without all their fingers or toes, blind in one eye, legally blind, deaf in one ear, heart murmurs, some types of cancer, etc.
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He was drafted April 42 for the Norden bombsight program due to his scores. He was selected for the warrant officer track but when the Norden was captured by the Germans and the bomb sight diminished in importance the whole program wound down and he ended up an E4. He was kind of bitter about it.

I had thought the WO thing was a tale but when I got his service records it was right there. My mom was the one who told me about the WO (she called it an officer).
 
What I think about when I hear things like this, is what would happen today? We're at the brink of the same situation, maybe far worse. Who here thinks we'll have mass volunteers? Who here thinks we'll have mass, 90+%, of Gen Z that will say "F YOU" to the draft? We're not in a good place. Well deserved from our highly untrustworthy gov't, if you ask me. No way I'll let my son go fight for corrupt oligarchs.
 
clay_fv said:
What I think about when I hear things like this, is what would happen today? We're at the brink of the same situation, maybe far worse. Who here thinks we'll have mass volunteers? Who here thinks we'll have mass, 90+%, of Gen Z that will say "F YOU" to the draft? We're not in a good place. Well deserved from our highly untrustworthy gov't, if you ask me. No way I'll let my son go fight for corrupt oligarchs.
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We're starting to derail the thread. That said, I think the bigger issue would be technological and industrial capability. There is no way we can scale to make production like we did 1940-1945. As far as manpower, Congress could vote for a draft tomorrow and it could be implemented in 2 weeks.
 
A survey showed that a distressingly high number of young people would flee this country if faced with an invasion such as happened in Ukraine. I was gobsmacked when I read it.
 
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rufrdr said:
He was drafted April 42 for the Norden bombsight program due to his scores. He was selected for the warrant officer track but when the Norden was captured by the Germans and the bomb sight diminished in importance the whole program wound down and he ended up an E4. He was kind of bitter about it.

I had thought the WO thing was a tale but when I got his service records it was right there. My mom was the one who told me about the WO (she called it an officer).
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I find the manpower organization of WW2 fascinating. You had people go from E-nothing to first sergeant in a couple years or less; officers from lieutenant to colonel. Even ol' Ike got stars faster than if a super nova exploded.

I would be bitter, too, if I went from being told I would be a WO then finding myself an E4.
 
rufrdr said:
A survey showed that a distressingly high number of young people would flee this country if faced with an invasion such as happened in Ukraine. I was gobsmacked when I read it.
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Again thread drift. Yeah, a draft to go oversees for WW3? Not sure I would want my sons to stick around. But if we are invaded? They'd take up arms.
 
Chuckman said:
We're starting to derail the thread. That said, I think the bigger issue would be technological and industrial capability. There is no way we can scale to make production like we did 1940-1945. As far as manpower, Congress could vote for a draft tomorrow and it could be implemented in 2 weeks
Click to expand...

Chuckman said:
Again thread drift. Yeah, a draft to go oversees for WW3? Not sure I would want my sons to stick around. But if we are invaded? They'd take up arms.
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Sorry for aiding and abetting thread drift!
 
Chuckman said:
I find the manpower organization of WW2 fascinating. You had people go from E-nothing to first sergeant in a couple years or less; officers from lieutenant to colonel. Even ol' Ike got stars faster than if a super nova exploded.

I would be bitter, too, if I went from being told I would be a WO then finding myself an E4.
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He told me that many pre war NCOs were overwhelmed and couldn't relate to draftees. Their default was profanity and shouting which didn't go well with the draftees. He also mentioned the 25 year old LTCs and 20 year old 2LTs. He served at Kirtland field for awhile at the bombardier school and the officers were desperate not to wash out because the next stop was the infantry.
 
rufrdr said:
Sorry for aiding and abetting thread drift!
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No worries. I am a little salty as I posted a nice historical video yesterday which was fairly benign and the very first comment was someone calling it BS and wanting to make it political (it wasn't). I had it removed. He didn't even go to foreplay, straight to the rough stuff.

rufrdr said:
He told me that many pre war NCOs were overwhelmed and couldn't relate to draftees. Their default was profanity and shouting which didn't go well with the draftees. He also mentioned the 25 year old LTCs and 20 year old 2LTs. He served at Kirtland field for awhile at the bombardier school and the officers were desperate not to wash out because the next stop was the infantry.
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I will see if I can find the PDF, I read an article yesterday about the issues training replacements and the chasm between veteran servicemen and draftees, how a lot of the training methods just did not work, which led to high casualty rates on the line. I also read that some prospective officers, depending on the job for which they were training, might go into a critical job if they wash out (i.e., intelligence, crypto, etc.). Towards the end of the war a lot of pilots who would otherwise wash out were forced through the pipeline and became instructor pilots so the 'good' pilots could go overseas.
 
I absolutely love history and threads like this. I apologize for derailing or attempting to derail it. Anytime I see history, I think about how we can learn from it and compare it to today. There are so many lessons to learn, that the current generation has purposely not learned.

Strong men make good times. Good times make weak men. Weak men make hard times. Hard times make strong men.

We could do a lot to scale up production. I think it would just take a bit longer. The problem is China and what we can do in order to cut their supply to what they need. They absolutely require things like foreign oil. We have everything we need right here. Alaska is still the greatest untapped resource mine on the planet
 
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