Drill, Drill, Drill

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John Travis

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Well...I got called into one that got locked. so I'll just do it this way.

I never said that drills were useless or bad. I said whenever we do anything repetitively, we're training ourselves to do that. A thing learned through repetition is a funny thing when we stir in off the scale stress. All sorts of interesting things can happen.

A drill is fine if the object of the exercise is improving time and marksmanship...for that drill. Trigger time all in good fun. If that's all we're interested in...fine. Go for it. Be the best. Only a small fraction of us will ever need to shoot for blood.

But since at least half of us always have one eye focused on training for serious purpose...self defense in the nightmare that we hope never happens...it begs a question. It's a question that I asked myself a long time ago when I was a very young guy headed for a nightmarish place. For me, both eyes are focused on that scenario, and for that simple reason, I don't participate in any of the action games. Ever. Just a personal choice, understand.

The question:

What do you do when the guy who is doing his level best to kill you doesn't hold up his end of the drill?

I practice drills. I just don't do the same one twice in a row...not even when I'm playing with the falling plate machines. I vary it every time.

Because I don't want to train myself to follow a pattern...any pattern...because kill or get killed never happens the way we think it will.

Arrogant and dismissive? No. More like frustrated and short on time. I have 26 dogs and two acres to tend to here. Now, I only respond when called, and I only answer the question asked and clarify if someone doesn't understand. A hint that it's about to turn into a pissin' match...poof. Exit stage left. No time to engage.

Be well.
 
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CZfool68 said:
26 dogs? Wow, you must spend about 12 hours a day scooping poop. Bless you for being the dogs' friend.
Click to expand...

And they're all sizes and several breeds...including six Siberian Huskies and a Boxer-Dane mix the size of a small Shetland Pony...and they're all in the house. Never a dull moment at Castle Doghair. :D

Now that I've slept and have a little time on my hands, allow me to expand a little. This is for you Wvsig. You seem to be the one who has the biggest problem with my presence here.

I rarely offer an opinion or a theory, and whenever I do, I state that it's an opinion/theory up front and worth tuppence. I refrain from offering opinions is because it triggers some people. They demand justification for my opinions. So...I generally refrain.

I stick to what I know and offer facts. Just the simple truth. But even that doesn't work well because it often challenges a preconceived notion or belief. You wouldn't believe some of the arguments I've had over Newton's Laws...the 3rd one in particular.

Or, I pass along knowledge or advice from people who are well-versed in the subject.

eg When a doctor gives me medical advice, I have to at least consider the possibility that he knows something about medicine.

eg When a lawyer gives me advice on a point of law or a legal process, I have to at least consider the possibility that he knows something about legal proceedings.

eg When an experienced gunsmith advises me not to polish a feed ramp, I have to at least consider the possibility that he knows something about feed ramps.

As Will Rogers so eloquently noted:

"A man that's had a tiger by the tail knows five or six more things about tigers than one that hasn't."

And even that seems to cause problems, so I stopped offering unless specifically invited into the discussion...and then, when it starts to devolve into snark and condescension...I quit and respond: "I've given you good information. What you choose to do with it is up to you." Or, sometimes, it's just: "Well...okay."

And then...I'm attacked for being "arrogant and dismissive" even though that's far from accurate. I've simply gotten tired of arguing and rather than fire back with snark and condescension...I drop it. And then, continue the attack long after I've quit the discussion...even in a different thread.

So much for "A soft answer turneth away wrath."

If I do seem arrogant and dismissive, know that I wasn't born this way. I acquired it.

So, now I won't even respond publicly if I'm invited. If anyone wants my input, hit me up with a private message and I'll do my best to answer clearly and accurately.

Regards
 
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John, I understand your position and outlook but you "attacked" their games in their eyes. You didn't follow the main flock of sheep and that made you an outcast. I have done the same in past threads and suffered just as you have.

I've often said on this forum that if/when I post something it's either from experience and knowledge or opinion. The gamer crowd can't see it that way, everything is in their mind, nothing based in reality.

As with many of the older participants on this forum, you included, I've seen the muzzle flash from the other end and felt the taste of blood in my mouth. Most of the gamers haven't and never will. If their "training" is so good why do they keep paying "trainers" to train them over and over to do the same "drill"??? THAT makes me wonder why they are told to bring a thousand rounds to a 2 day class.

As you said above, their training to do the drill and if they do that long enough it becomes the only thing they know and the only thing they can do with any degree of competency. If someone changes just one little thing they'll freeze because someone isn't playing by the "rules".... Just one man's opinion.....
 
Can someone point out where this poop storm originated from?


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B00ger said:
Can someone point out where this poop storm originated from?


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Click to expand...

I think it was the latest Bill Drill thread that maybe Amps 13 started and is now locked.
 
I get it but I like drills. Used properly they build fundamentals. Used improperly they become your default response. I’ll use a drill to practice draw, trigger press, reload, malfulction clearing, etc etc. I can always use improvement to those basics. But I agree with you that repetition of pre-determined strings of fire is not a productive way to improve one’s ability to defend oneself.
 
When it comes to pistol shooting... I listen to everyone. Cause I suck.

I can hit anything with a rifle... but I suck at pistol. I don't care what drill it is.. I will listen. I will listen more to those that have seen a 2-way range over others. Game and Comps are good.... it puts you under pressure of time and elevates the stress levels; albeit, not to the level of survival.

@John Travis has good stuff to offer. I will listen, I will not criticize, I will incorporate. That's the goal of learning... take in all thoughts, learning and then apply to what works for you.

I get that most drills and games are from one spot on the X. That is more due to stage design, safety and maybe some complacency....

I would encourage good debate, good discussion and no reason to go over top harshly. Our job is to keep learning our craft and become more efficient. Push the envelope and incorporate into an edge that gives you an advantage.

IMHO, of course.
 
Doing drills has its place:

Ball players have batting practice. Football players scrimmage. Soldiers hold mock battles. It’s all just practice. The issue comes in when one assumes that practice will prepare one mentally for the stress of a true situation.

I can go up to the batting cage and hit 10 shots in a row that would go over 400 feet. That doesn’t mean I can face down a major league pitcher while surrounded by screaming fans. The moment I think it does then I’ve taken a step towards fantasy land.

At the same time, that practice is valuable in its own right in teaching mechanics.

Also, not sure who was bashing on instructors, but in my experience, they don’t all teach the exact same thing or do the exact same drills. Just like various other coaches in life they all bring a different set of perceptions and skills to the plate. If you are too stupid to realize they are speaking their version of “best practices” and not spreading a new gospel of pew then you deserve the derision you receive. But if you approach a training class with a mindset of “I want to improve in X way” then good on you.

“Gaming” doesn’t prepare you for gunfighting and gunfighting doesn’t prepare you for USPSA or whatever. Know the distinction, know where skills can be shared, but also know that skill at one doesn’t necessarily translate to skill at the other.


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Doing drills will get you mo betta, mo faster. We did shooting drills in the Marine Corps and my son in law does drills at 5th group where he is an A Team commander. He and I have shot many matches together, some of them have been blind stages and I beat him a lot more than he beats me. Anybody care to guess why? It’s because I was doing drills in dry fire way more than he did. He is 20 years my junior and in waaayyyy better shape. I am also nearly blind and after 2 back surgeries I can barely feel my right leg. When you can draw your weapon to your eye EVERY TIME YOU DRAW and do it faster and know that you hit your target, you’re going to have a fighting chance in any situation.

Now if you are talking about small unit tactics, that’s a completely different situation but you are still going to do drills so that most of that becomes subconscious. Anything that you no longer have to consciously think about will allow you more time to focus on the ever changing situation at hand. I will personally probably never need to practice small unit tactics ever again and trust me, you don’t want me in your unit any more.

My basic belief is that anytime behind the gun will make you better as long as you’re not just goofing off.
 
VA_GENTLEMAN said:
When it comes to pistol shooting... I listen to everyone. Cause I suck.

I can hit anything with a rifle... but I suck at pistol. I don't care what drill it is.. I will listen. I will listen more to those that have seen a 2-way range over others. Game and Comps are good.... it puts you under pressure of time and elevates the stress levels; albeit, not to the level of survival.

@John Travis has good stuff to offer. I will listen, I will not criticize, I will incorporate. That's the goal of learning... take in all thoughts, learning and then apply to what works for you.

I get that most drills and games are from one spot on the X. That is more due to stage design, safety and maybe some complacency....

I would encourage good debate, good discussion and no reason to go over top harshly. Our job is to keep learning our craft and become more efficient. Push the envelope and incorporate into an edge that gives you an advantage.

IMHO, of course.
Click to expand...

Most drills and pratical shooting matches or multigun matches are NOT from one spot on the X.
This notion is strange and the same notion Travis mentioned in the thread earlier.

It’s completely untrue for any of the practical shooting sports. Aside from classifiers, you almost never shoot or draw “from the x”.

On a typical USPSA field course, you may:
Draw while moving
Shoot while movin
Reload while moving
Shoot over obstacles
Shoot from under obstacles
Shoot tight long shots
Shoot fast close shots
Shoot with strong hand
Shoot with weak hand
Shoot head shots
Shoot with many “no shoots” (hostages)
Etc etc.

In fact, you may have to do all of the above in a single stage!!

The idea that self defense shooting skills will be negatively affected by this type of shooting mastery is beyond laughable.

Please please please go to a match and just watch. Decide for yourself. Don’t take my word for it. Any uspsa match around here is comepletly open to spectators and you can see for yourself! Or simply watch some YouTube.

Bullseye, steel challenge, clay shooting. Those are the kind of games where you shoot from the X.
And in none of them would anybody be doing these types of drills, lol. Those require a different type of drill and practice.

2gun, 3gun, uspsa, idpa, etc:
You are almost always moving and they are dynamic sports that require shooting from any position you can possibly imagine.
 
NKD said:
Most drills and pratical shooting matches or multigun matches are NOT from one spot on the X.
This notion is strange and the same notion Travis mentioned in the thread earlier.

It’s completely untrue for any of the practical shooting sports. Aside from classifiers, you almost never shoot or draw “from the x”.

On a typical USPSA field course, you may:
Draw while moving
Shoot while movin
Reload while moving
Shoot over obstacles
Shoot from under obstacles
Shoot tight long shots
Shoot fast close shots
Shoot with strong hand
Shoot with weak hand
Shoot head shots
Shoot with many “no shoots” (hostages)
Etc etc.

In fact, you may have to do all of the above in a single stage!!

The idea that self defense shooting skills will be negatively affected by this type of shooting mastery is beyond laughable.

Please please please go to a match and just watch. Decide for yourself. Don’t take my word for it. Any uspsa match around here is comepletly open to spectators and you can see for yourself! Or simply watch some YouTube.

Bullseye, steel challenge, clay shooting. Those are the kind of games where you shoot from the X.
And in none of them would anybody be doing these types of drills, lol. Those require a different type of drill and practice.

2gun, 3gun, uspsa, idpa, etc:
You are almost always moving and they are dynamic sports that require shooting from any position you can possibly imagine.
Click to expand...
You forgot to mention that sometimes the targets themselves are moving and you obviously didn’t shoot Rowan last week where I had to shoot headshots while crawling. I hope to never see another coopers tunnel in my life! :D

On a happier note, I just found out that my first granddaughter is on her way, should be here in March!
 
FatboyFlash said:
You forgot to mention that sometimes the targets themselves are moving and you obviously didn’t shoot Rowan last week where I had to shoot headshots while crawling. I hope to never see another coopers tunnel in my life! :D

On a happier note, I just found out that my first granddaughter is on her way, should be here in March!
Click to expand...

Haha. Yeah I forgot:
Moving targets
Swinging targets
Steel poppers
Texas stars
Peeping Tom targets
Crawling
Sitting
Jumping
Moving platform

Congrats on your g-child!
 
Here’s a good example of what you’ll see:

 
FatboyFlash said:
You forgot to mention that sometimes the targets themselves are moving and you obviously didn’t shoot Rowan last week where I had to shoot headshots while crawling. I hope to never see another coopers tunnel in my life! :D

On a happier note, I just found out that my first granddaughter is on her way, should be here in March!
Click to expand...
Quite crying

And congrats
 
John Travis said:
Well...I got called into one that got locked. so I'll just do it this way.

I never said that drills were useless or bad. I said whenever we do anything repetitively, we're training ourselves to do that. A thing learned through repetition is a funny thing when we stir in off the scale stress. All sorts of interesting things can happen.

A drill is fine if the object of the exercise is improving time and marksmanship...for that drill. Trigger time all in good fun. If that's all we're interested in...fine. Go for it. Be the best. Only a small fraction of us will ever need to shoot for blood.

But since at least half of us always have one eye focused on training for serious purpose...self defense in the nightmare that we hope never happens...it begs a question. It's a question that I asked myself a long time ago when I was a very young guy headed for a nightmarish place. For me, both eyes are focused on that scenario, and for that simple reason, I don't participate in any of the action games. Ever. Just a personal choice, understand.

The question:

What do you do when the guy who is doing his level best to kill you doesn't hold up his end of the drill?

I practice drills. I just don't do the same one twice in a row...not even when I'm playing with the falling plate machines. I vary it every time.

Because I don't want to train myself to follow a pattern...any pattern...because kill or get killed never happens the way we think it will.

Arrogant and dismissive? No. More like frustrated and short on time. I have 26 dogs and two acres to tend to here. Now, I only respond when called, and I only answer the question asked and clarify if someone doesn't understand. A hint that it's about to turn into a pissin' match...poof. Exit stage left. No time to engage.

Be well.
Click to expand...
Here's the problem, if you are wondering.

You used to contribute pretty regularly and a lot of us would reverently read what you had to say about the mechanics of 1911's. Me being one of them.

But when someone isn't paying attention to what's going on with the community here, and then just drops a turd in the punchbowl about how that training is fine for gaming, but not for the street, as you did about a drill posted by an undisputed top defensive trainer in a thread posted by a respected member and trainer on this forum, and in this community, well that just pisses some of us off.
 
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Understand the double-edged sword of drills:
FatboyFlash said:
... you are still going to do drills so that most of that becomes subconscious. Anything that you no longer have to consciously think about will allow you more time to focus on the ever changing situation at hand.
Click to expand...
If you drill until an action becomes automatic, the action will still be automatic even when a different action is needed.
 
gc70 said:
Understand the double-edged sword of drills:

If you drill until an action becomes automatic, the action will still be automatic even when a different action is needed.
Click to expand...
Only if you do the same drill and never switch it up. You can’t do just bill drills and expect to be able to hit moving targets but the bill drill will help you hit moving targets more than once.
 
gc70 said:
Understand the double-edged sword of drills:

If you drill until an action becomes automatic, the action will still be automatic even when a different action is needed.
Click to expand...

What do you do to learn to shoot faster and more accurately?
 
BTW:
Important that everybody understand this discussion is based on a Ken Hackathorn drill.

Ken is NOT a competition shooter only. If you are poopooing these drills, you are not debating “competition shooters” you are debating this guy:

“Ken Hackathorn has served as a US Army Special Forces Small Arms Instructor, Gunsite Instructor, and NRA Police Firearms Instructor. He is currently an FBI Certified Firearms Instructor, Certified Deputy Sheriff with Washington County SO, Ohio, and a SRT member and Special Response Team trainer. Ken has trained US Military Special Operations forces, Marine FAST and SOTG units and is a contract small arms trainer to FBI SWAT and HRT.

Ken has provided training to Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies and been active in small arms training for the past 25 years. He has written firearms related material for Guns & Ammo, Combat Handguns, Soldier Of Fortune, and currently American Handgunner and contributed to at least six other gun/shooting journals. Ken was also a founding member of IPSC and IDPA.”
 
James said:
Tuners's commentary fit the thread and the 1 to 5 drill isn't an overly impressive or valuable self defense training.

If people making relevant and accurate commentary in a public forum pisses you off then you are obviously the problem.
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Oh, it's you. Someone told me I should have put you on ignore three threads ago.
 
So, Ken is an “expert” on self defense and “gunfighting”, if ever there was one.

So, while Mr. Travis spends a lot of time talking about how he listens to experts in an above post, apparently it is not shooting and “gun fighting” experts. And certainly not competition shooting experts.
 
Meanwhile..... this guy is shooting pistol better than me... Anybody got any Copperhead Venom?

seth-macfarlane.jpg
 
James said:
While Ken may be one of the hundreds/thousands of experts all of those agencies you listed have consulted with over the years...you won't find any of them doing the 1 to 5 drill. The FBI also continues to put extended slide releases on their pistols. Many qualified people choose not to do everything Ken and Larry say.
Click to expand...
Always about slidelock release isn't it.

Come shoot a match with us old guys.

fullsizeoutput_a81.jpeg
 
NKD said:
BTW:
Important that everybody understand this discussion is based on a Ken Hackathorn drill.

Ken is NOT a competition shooter only. If you are poopooing these drills, you are not debating “competition shooters” you are debating this guy:

“Ken Hackathorn has served as a US Army Special Forces Small Arms Instructor, Gunsite Instructor, and NRA Police Firearms Instructor. He is currently an FBI Certified Firearms Instructor, Certified Deputy Sheriff with Washington County SO, Ohio, and a SRT member and Special Response Team trainer. Ken has trained US Military Special Operations forces, Marine FAST and SOTG units and is a contract small arms trainer to FBI SWAT and HRT.

Ken has provided training to Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies and been active in small arms training for the past 25 years. He has written firearms related material for Guns & Ammo, Combat Handguns, Soldier Of Fortune, and currently American Handgunner and contributed to at least six other gun/shooting journals. Ken was also a founding member of IPSC and IDPA.”
Click to expand...

That's it? Damn, that guy needs to get up earlier in the morning.
 
NKD said:
Most drills and pratical shooting matches or multigun matches are NOT from one spot on the X.
This notion is strange and the same notion Travis mentioned in the thread earlier.

It’s completely untrue for any of the practical shooting sports. Aside from classifiers, you almost never shoot or draw “from the x”.

On a typical USPSA field course, you may:
Draw while moving
Shoot while movin
Reload while moving
Shoot over obstacles
Shoot from under obstacles
Shoot tight long shots
Shoot fast close shots
Shoot with strong hand
Shoot with weak hand
Shoot head shots
Shoot with many “no shoots” (hostages)
Etc etc.

In fact, you may have to do all of the above in a single stage!!

The idea that self defense shooting skills will be negatively affected by this type of shooting mastery is beyond laughable.

Please please please go to a match and just watch. Decide for yourself. Don’t take my word for it. Any uspsa match around here is comepletly open to spectators and you can see for yourself! Or simply watch some YouTube.

Bullseye, steel challenge, clay shooting. Those are the kind of games where you shoot from the X.
And in none of them would anybody be doing these types of drills, lol. Those require a different type of drill and practice.

2gun, 3gun, uspsa, idpa, etc:
You are almost always moving and they are dynamic sports that require shooting from any position you can possibly imagine.
Click to expand...

Here is what Ken H says about confusing gun games with gunfighting:

"The problem is that to become really good at competition, many mindset/tactics are disregarded. In fact, the real issue is that, like everything we do in life, “we are what we practice.” Engaging targets in the open when cover is close by, reloading on the run (though it’s much wiser to reload behind cover and then move), engaging targets in the order that gives us the fastest times instead of those that would be the greatest danger to the shooter, always having a chance to plan your “attack” or even rehearse your run—these are but a few of the things that set people up for failure in the real world. It appears that the more skilled you become in competition, the easier it is to preprogram behaviors that could be fatal in a real self-defense encounter."
 
James said:
Here is what Ken H says about confusing gun games with gunfighting:

"The problem is that to become really good at competition, many mindset/tactics are disregarded. In fact, the real issue is that, like everything we do in life, “we are what we practice.” Engaging targets in the open when cover is close by, reloading on the run (though it’s much wiser to reload behind cover and then move), engaging targets in the order that gives us the fastest times instead of those that would be the greatest danger to the shooter, always having a chance to plan your “attack” or even rehearse your run—these are but a few of the things that set people up for failure in the real world. It appears that the more skilled you become in competition, the easier it is to preprogram behaviors that could be fatal in a real self-defense encounter."
Click to expand...
A simple drill was posted by Ken. Why is it so damn disturbing to you?
 
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So, basically: “I listen to experts, (only as long as I deem them experts personally), and take what they say to heart (as long as I agree with it).

I agree, in short, with NKD and Fatboy.


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NKD said:
What do you do to learn to shoot faster and more accurately?
Click to expand...
You do a variety of different things to learn to shoot better - or that is what you said previously.

What may or may not be helpful, depending on the situation you face at a particular time, is doing the same thing so much that it becomes an automatic or unconscious action.

I carried an HK P7 for several years and did lots of drills to quickly change magazines. I drilled until I reached the point of automatic, unconscious, muscle-memory mag changes using my P7's heel mag release. Then, without planning or preparation, I was invited to shoot in a Glock match; I will absolutely guarantee that automatic is not always good and the heel mag release on a Glock does not work worth a flip.
 
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James said:
Here is what Ken H says about confusing gun games with gunfighting:

"The problem is that to become really good at competition, many mindset/tactics are disregarded. In fact, the real issue is that, like everything we do in life, “we are what we practice.” Engaging targets in the open when cover is close by, reloading on the run (though it’s much wiser to reload behind cover and then move), engaging targets in the order that gives us the fastest times instead of those that would be the greatest danger to the shooter, always having a chance to plan your “attack” or even rehearse your run—these are but a few of the things that set people up for failure in the real world. It appears that the more skilled you become in competition, the easier it is to preprogram behaviors that could be fatal in a real self-defense encounter."
Click to expand...
this is absolutely correct, which is why you must practice for whatever scenario seems most likely. The basics however never change.
 
gc70 said:
Understand the double-edged sword of drills: If you drill until an action becomes automatic, the action will still be automatic even when a different action is needed.
Click to expand...

So, you're saying if I shoot drills over and over and someone pulls a gun on me, I'll assume this position and wait for the beep (maybe after finding the starting box?)? Come on! I might drop dead of fright, but most likely I will react as quickly as possible to seek cover. The premise that drills don't make you better is ridiculous on its face. USPSA Surrender.gif
 
FatboyFlash said:
I like your choice in beverage.
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It is the best beer on the planet. And if I drank it all the time I'd be big as a Burick. I'm celebrating the last of the hurricane.
 
James said:
I am quoting Ken...it is a good quote. How do you manage to stay so confused?
Click to expand...
No confusion here. A drill was posted. Shoot the drill if you like it. Don't shoot it if you don't.
John didn't like it. Apparently it troubles you. Don't shoot it if you don't like it.
 
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