1911's to avoid?

HawgBonz

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45ACP ~$1k-ish tops.
Are there any 1911's, current mfg or not, that are known to be problematic, proprietary or otherwise undesirable for some reason?
Bad resale value included. I hafta say I've never seen a platform so..... prolific in it's variety.
And they'll let ya spend all ya want.. 🥴 😂
Thanks...
 
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I am not a smith, and can barely spell 1911, so take this with a sip of bourbon. A fellow shooter, @fieldgrade, likes to buy a 1911, then change a bunch of stuff on it. He once said Sig 1911s used proprietary parts, so he didn't want one because he couldn't make the changes.

And based on his experiences and some limited amount of mine, 1911s seemed to have been designed for 45, and 9mm is problematic. I had a Colt 1911, not the lower end, and it was very picky on ammo. It once locked up so tight on a 147 gr 9mm bullet that it took two hands on the gun with the sights on the edge of a table to finally rack the bullet out.

Not to be deterred, I bought a Springfield Emissary in 9mm. Right out of the box it wouldn't cycle any type of bullet. It turns out I was riding the slide with a high left thumb, and the slightest pressure on the slide caused the slide not to cycle right. Who knew? I also bought an SR1911 Koenig model in 9mm, and so far it's run like a top. I haven't tried it under the duress of IDPA yet, so if it gives me problems I will report back.
 
OK here is an attempt at real answer: I almost always recommend a GI Milspec as a first 1911. Get a basic no fills gun. Shoot 500-1000 rounds out of it and get a feel for the platform. If you like it move on to step 2 which is the rabbit hole of upgraded models with beavertails, extended thumb safeties, magwells, better sights etc... I think getting to know the basic platform informs a new 1911 shooter with the experience to choose the right options on an upgraded gun. Not the options someone else recommended or told you that you needed but the ones your shooting the basic platform showed you that you needed. I tend to prefer 70 series non-firing pin safety guns but 80 series work. Flame suite has been dawned.

1911s that punch above their weight: Basic guns with basic features but they run reliably.

These are 1911s which are value guns built to a price in point as entry level pistols.. These come with some compromises. Things like cast frames. MIM & plastic parts. It does not make them bad it makes them what they are.

-Tisas/SDS 1911. These are forged frame and slides with some cast or mim parts. GI gun start at around $325 and more modern versions run into the $600 range. They are well made for the price and most people report excellent reliability. They are my current #1 recommendation for a first 1911
-RIA has been a budget 1911 maker for a while now. Here you get cast frames with forged uppers and slides. There will be a mix of MIM parts and cast part. Prices have gone up on these which is why they end up on the #2 spot. For the most part good quality guns that run out of the box but prices now start in the $450 for a milspec so the Tisas is a better value.
-SA Defender is the entry level SA It can be had at about $600. It is a step up from the RIA or Tisas because it has a forged frame, slide and barrel and it’s not made in a 3rd world country with what amounts to being slave wages. They have good customer service and are the lowest base gun I would ever put custom changes into.

The next level is a GI Colt: The Magic of the Prancing Pony

-These days that is the Colt Classic blued or in SS. Colt feature wise is the same as the ones listed above. GI sights, plastic mainspring, GI thumb safety etc... You do get national match barrel on these guns. They were at one time as low as $700 and have been as high as $1100. These days if you shop smart, they are $850-$900. The reason Colt is its own category is that there is something about the Prancing Pony that sets it apart from other brands. You can buy a Colt at $850 shooting 1000 rounds out of it and sell it for what you have in it as long as you have not idiot scratched it. No other brand can claim the same. IMHO If you do custom work on a gun a Colt will always have higher resale than any other base gun.

The Next level is Production guns with custom Features: They Look like custom guns but they are still mid-level production pieces.

-Tisas is still in this mix with upgraded guns with custom like features for $550+ All the other comments still apply.
-SA have several flavors. These days it is the Loaded, The Ronin & The Garrison. These start at in the $850 range. You are getting more bells and whistles and the guns are getting more tailored to a purpose. Gun games, concealed carry etc... Quality is high and there is a lot of value here because the upgrades if you like them want them need them will cost you less than if you had a smith do them to a base gun.
-Colt Competition 1911 is the next level. Good guns selling for about $1000 these days. Novak sights and fiber optic front. Thumb safety, beavertail, trigger is all upgraded. Like the GI Colt these will hold their value better than others.

The Final Level is higher end Production guns: You are into the level of well-built solid production guns. For many people this is the level at which they stop playing. The law of diminishing returns is really kicking in here.

-SA had guns like the Emissary and the TRP at this level. You are getting a lot of the same guts but with more refinement in the feature set and the fit and finish of the gun. You are now in the $1100-1500 range. Good guns but at this price point they are losing value.
-Colt Combat Elite, Colt Gold Cup, National Match, CCU, Combat Rail etc.... all fall into this price point. Good solid performers but the "value" is really diminishing here in the Colt line. You have to love the configuration. When you are getting to $1500 + Production Colt a better option starts to come into the picture.
-Dan Wesson for me is the best in this category. It is the gateway drug to higher end 1911s. Here you are getting all forged tool steel parts, match barrels, nitride finishes. Not quite tuned triggers but some of the best triggers that will come off a production line. They are owned by CZ but are smaller than the others mentioned. At this level the DW wins on refinement. All of this comes at a price. The Pointman starts at $1700 and you can go up to a Valor for $2300. Personally, I would buy a Valor over a SA TRP because the overall quality of the product

From there you can get into the semi-custom builders like Wilson, Nighthawk, Les Baer etc.... 99% of 1911 shooters will not move into that realm so I leave that for another thread. Here are some other makes I have left off.

-Ruger SR1911 it is a solid gun and when it sold for $650-$700 it was a good value. They are now $900 guns and IMHO not worth the new cost.
-Kimber they are overpriced for what you get. Lots of MIM parts and have known weak points. They changed the industry and at one time made solid guns but these days they are a marketing company who happens to make 1911s. Resale value is terrible.
-Sig make a 1911 like product. I call it that because it has an external extractor. Also, everything I said about Kimber now applies to Sig. #roncohen
-S&W they also use an external extractor but do it better than most. Their guns run but they just don't appeal to me. They are left off my list for purely subjective reasons.
-Do not buy a Remington
-Taurus 1911s are OK but who really wants a Taurus and resale is poor. They were built to me a price point and it shows in the product.
 
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Holy crap, wvsig! I owe ya lunch for that write-up.. :D

I prolly shoulda mentioned budget in my original post.. I'll fix that. Lookin ~$1k-ish tops.
I've read up on some of the more budget friendly versions and some of them are prolly just fine.
But knowing me and my flakiness, I'd like to get something with a stronger resale in case they just don't click for me.
And that said, I'd like to avoid the "lipstick on a pig" scenario" of having to upgrade sights or some such on a budget version to give the platform an honest shot. :cool:
 
Holy crap, wvsig! I owe ya lunch for that write-up.. :D

I prolly shoulda mentioned budget in my original post.. I'll fix that. Lookin ~$1k-ish tops.
I've read up on some of the more budget friendly versions and some of them are prolly just fine.
But knowing me and my flakiness, I'd like to get something with a stronger resale in case they just don't click for me.
And that said, I'd like to avoid the "lipstick on a pig" scenario" of having to upgrade sights or some such on a budget version to give the platform an honest shot. :cool:

I would consider these. Resale should be ok on these if it comes to that.

Tisas. I am not a fan of ambi safeties but that can be replaced.


Ronin


Colt Competition

 
My midget has a tisas, and it’s a great gun. Runs like crap through a goose
 
The LGS has a Ronin in stock. Looked nice. Felt nice. Hi-viz front.
But he wants $850 for it.
Hickory is next weekend..
If I had ta be honest I think what I'm really after is the SA only trigger.
I dislike long pulls and squish. Gimme muh "glass rod" any day.. :cool:
 
My neighbor has had a Ruger since they first came out. Never had one problem. In the value price range I’d probably buy one of those. Then when you get really into it ask @wvsig to discuss custom and high end 1911’s.
 
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I jumped right in and went Dan Wesson but that's a bit ridiculous. Spending your money I'd buy the Tisas, they get great reviews on 1911 forums buy guys with some high end collections.

I disagree. There is nothing ridiculous about a Dan Wesson. Excellent choice, it’s never a bad thing to buy a high quality weapon if you have the coins.
 
One thing to remember is that, like boats and women, the rigging costs more than the hull. Assuming that you will be shooting it a lot, the initial cost of the pistol fades into oblivion after you buy ammo, magazines, holsters, and all the other things that make owning any pistol fun and worthwhile. Lots of ammo. Lots. You do not have to break the bank going full custom but should not make saving a few dollars your prime consideration when choosing a pistol.

WVSIG gave a good rundown of some pistols that are very functional but not too expensive. That is the range of 1911 that I shoot, and I am quite satisfied with the performance of most of the pistols I have. I have 1911 pistols by Colt, Springfield Armory, Ruger, Kimber, and S&W that all function reliably with good ammo and good magazines. I would look for a Springfield Armory Garrison or a Colt Competition without the firing pin safety if I were going to get one pistol. Mil spec pistols are great, but I need a beavertail grip safety because my chubby little hands get bloody from hammer bite when I shoot a 1911 without one.
 
They all suck. Buy a Glock


Oh I’m gonna get burned at the stake for that one 😂
c86327a87ad68efc9b46345ccebaec920b073557.gifv
 
My neighbor has had a Ruger since they first came out. Never had one problem. In the value price range I’d probably buy one of those. The ]n when you get really into ask @wvsig to discuss custom and high end 1911’s.

The Ruger is a solid gun when it is priced right. MSRP went up to $1169. Most people sell them for $900 these days but after you posted this I looked and found this at Smokey Mountian Guns & Ammo. At $800 it is worth considering. $855 including shipping and tax + whatever you pay for transfers.

 
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yeah but he has a spending limit. you got that Baer nice and broken in yet?

Both of them are running like sewing machines. Actually they ran 100% out of the box. And the UTC is trying to be my favorite firearm. The CZ hanging in there, but it’s a battle.
The Ruger is a solid gun when it is priced right. MSRP went up to $1299. Most people sell them for $900 these days but after you posted this I looked and found this at Smokey Mountian Guns & Ammo. At $800 it is worth considering. $855 including shipping and tax + whatever you pay for transfers.


Damn, did not know that, think my neighbor paid about $650 when he got his. I was thinking maybe it was around $800 now.
 
One thing to remember is that, like boats and women, the rigging costs more than the hull. Assuming that you will be shooting it a lot, the initial cost of the pistol fades into oblivion after you buy ammo, magazines, holsters, and all the other things that make owning any pistol fun and worthwhile. Lots of ammo. Lots. You do not have to break the bank going full custom but should not make saving a few dollars your prime consideration when choosing a pistol.

WVSIG gave a good rundown of some pistols that are very functional but not too expensive. That is the range of 1911 that I shoot, and I am quite satisfied with the performance of most of the pistols I have. I have 1911 pistols by Colt, Springfield Armory, Ruger, Kimber, and S&W that all function reliably with good ammo and good magazines. I would look for a Springfield Armory Garrison or a Colt Competition without the firing pin safety if I were going to get one pistol. Mil spec pistols are great, but I need a beavertail grip safety because my chubby little hands get bloody from hammer bite when I shoot a 1911 without one.

When talking 1911s one must always remember. The 1911 chambered in 45 ACP is the Worlds Finest Close Quarters Sidearm and King of feedway stoppages. -Ken Hackathorn

Magazines are an important part of the system and often the most over looked part. No matter what 1911 you get you need to get good quality mags. Also learn to treat them as wear parts not collectible items. They take a lot of abuse if you are dropping them on the ground and doing mag changes at speed. Treat them like a recoil spring. When they are no longer in spec replace them. Too many people try to rehab them and only prolong the problems.

I have found these to be reliable in all in spec 1911s I own.

Wilson ETM
Chip McCormick
Tripp Research
Checkmate
 
I'd get a Colt right now. A 'pre-CZ' Colt will probably go up in value in the future. I own a Tisas and Colts and had a RIA in the past, all good servicable pistols.

Turkey is a 2nd world country with a highly developed modern manufacturing sector. Their gun manufacturing is a mix of old world craftsmen and modern computer controlled machinery. Labor costs are low and the Lira value weak which makes their products a bargain here.
 
Don't be afraid of a used 1911 if the price is right.

I do not recommend a used 1911 for the new 1911 shooter unless you are buying from a know reliable source. Way too many people money with them IMHO. If you don't know what to look for you can get burned.
 
OK here is an attempt at real answer: I almost always recommend a GI Milspec as a first 1911. Get a basic no fills gun. Shoot 500-1000 rounds out of it and get a feel for the platform. If you like it move on to step 2 which is the rabbit hole of upgraded models with beavertails, extended thumb safeties, magwells, better rights etc... I think getting to know the basic platform informs a new 1911 shooter with the experience to choose the right options on an upgraded gun. Not the options someone else recommended or told you that you needed but the ones your shooting the basic platform showed you that you needed. I tend to prefer 70 series non-firing pin safety guns but 80 series work. Flame suite has been dawned.

1911s that punch above their weight: Basic guns with basic features but they run reliably.

These are 1911s which are value guns built to a price in point as entry level pistols.. These come with some compromises. Things like cast frames. MIM & plastic parts. It does not make them bad it makes them what they are.

-Tisas/SDS 1911. These are forged frame and slides with some cast or mim parts. GI gun start at around $325 and more modern versions run into the $600 range. They are well made for the price and most people report excellent reliability. They are my current #1 recommendation for a first 1911
-RIA has been a budget 1911 maker for a while now. Here you get cast frames with forged uppers and slides. There will be a mix of MIM parts and cast part. Prices have gone up on these which is why they end up on the #2 spot. For the most part good quality guns that run out of the box but prices now start in the $450 for a milspec so the Tisas is a better value.
-SA Defender is the entry level SA It can be had at about $600. It is a step up from the RIA or Tisas because it has a forged frame, slide and barrel and it’s not made in a 3rd world country with what amounts to being slave wages. They have good customer service and are the lowest base gun I would ever put custom changes into.

The next level is a GI Colt: The Magic of the Prancing Pony

-These days that is the Colt Classic blued or in SS. Colt feature wise is the same as the ones listed above. GI sights, plastic mainspring, GI thumb safety etc... You do get national match barrel on these guns. They were at one time as low as $700 and have been as high as $1100. These days if you shop smart, they are $850-$900. The reason Colt is its own category is that there is something about the Prancing Pony that sets it apart from other brands. You can buy a Colt at $850 shooting 1000 rounds out of it and sell it for what you have in it as long as you have not idiot scratched it. No other brand can claim the same. IMHO If you do custom work on a gun a Colt will always have higher resale than any other base gun.

The Next level is Production guns with custom Features: They Look like custom guns but they are still mid-level production pieces.

-Tisas is still in this mix with upgraded guns with custom like features for $550+ All the other comments still apply.
-SA have several flavors. These days it is the Loaded, The Ronin & The Garrison. These start at in the $850 range. You are getting more bells and whistles and the guns are getting more tailored to a purpose. Gun games, concealed carry etc... Quality is high and there is a lot of value here because the upgrades if you like them want them need them will cost you less than if you had a smith do them to a base gun.
-Colt Competition 1911 is the next level. Good guns selling for about $1000 these days. Novak sights and fiber optic front. Thumb safety, beavertail, trigger is all upgraded. Like the GI Colt these will hold their value better than others.

The Final Level is higher end Production guns: You are into the level of well-built solid production guns. For many people this is the level at which they stop playing. The law of diminishing returns is really kicking in here.

-SA had guns like the Emissary and the TRP at this level. You are getting a lot of the same guts but with more refinement in the feature set and the fit and finish of the gun. You are now in the $1100-1500 range. Good guns but at this price point they are losing value.
-Colt Combat Elite, Colt Gold Cup, National Match, CCU, Combat Rail etc.... all fall into this price point. Good solid performers but you to be the "value" is really diminishing here in the Colt line. You have to love the configuration. When you are getting to $1500 + Production Colt a better option starts to come into the picture.
-Dan Wesson for me is the best in this category. It is the gateway drug to higher end 1911s. Here you are getting all forged tool steel parts, match barrels, nitride finishes. Not quite tuned triggers but some of the best triggers that will come off a production line. They are owned by CZ but are smaller than the others mentioned. At this level the DW wins on refinement. All of this comes at a price. The Pointman starts at $1700 and you can go up to a Valor for $2300. Personally, I would buy a Valor over a SA TRP because the overall quality of the product

From there you can get into the semi-custom builders like Wilson, Nighthawk, Les Baer etc.... 99% of 1911 shooters will not move into that realm so I leave that for another thread. Here are some other makes I have left off.

-Ruger SR1911 it is a solid gun and when it sold for $650-$700 it was a good value. They are now $900 guns and IMHO not worth the new cost.
-Kimber they are overpriced for what you get. Lots of MIM parts and have known weak points. They changed the industry and at one time made solid guns but these days they are a marketing company who happens to make 1911s. Resale value is terrible.
-Sig make a 1911 like product. I call it that because it has an external extractor. Also, everything I said about Kimber now applies to Sig. #roncohen
-S&W they also use an external extractor but do it better than most. Their guns run but they just don't appeal to me. They are left off my list for purely subjective reasons.
-Do not buy a Remington
-Taurus 1911s are OK but who really wants a Taurus and resale is poor. They were built to me a price point and it shows in the product.
Mic Drop!!!

I've heard good things about the Rock Island 1911 for the price as an entry level piece. Hickock45 and a couple others have done videos on them.
I'm really impressed with my Ruger 1911, I would go that route for the first if you can get into it for sub $800

 
Only 1911 I ever had misgivings about was an Auto Ordnance A1 I bought about 14 years ago, it was a nightmare. Almost like the polishing crew skipped the one I bought, tool marks and rough metal everywhere.
No more Auto Ordnance firearms for me
 
Mic Drop!!!

I've heard good things about the Rock Island 1911 for the price as an entry level piece. Hickock45 and a couple others have done videos on them.
I'm really impressed with my Ruger 1911, I would go that route for the first if you can get into it for sub $800



I agree with a lot of what he is saying. The problem with this video is he is presenting an Ed Brown as if it is the pinnacle of of 1911s. It really is on the upper tier of the middle of the pack. They are a lot of $$ money but in the world of 1911s $3,000 is not anywhere near the high end. They are solid guns but are not as popular these days as they once were. When you move to true customs is where the $$$ get nuts. Ed Brown has actually gone the other way since that video was made. They now sell more of their EVO line which is more of a modern CNC produced pistol than the older guns. They have lowered the price point on most of their offerings. They no longer make the Kobra, Executive Elite etc....

I disagree with him in terms of accuracy. For practical plinking most people won't see the difference. Higher end 1911s are going to be able to shoot 1.5" groups at 50 yards. The avg production gun made by Tisas or RIA are going to be in the 6"+. This might matter to you it might not. Also Ed Brown is not a custom gun. They are a small format production line gun that is semi-custom. It is not built to your spec it is built within their universe with only a few options. Nothing wrong with that but many people don't know the difference. I found it surprising that Hickock45 didn't make that distinction.

Again at every price point there is a law of diminishing returns. When you get to truly custom gun you are paying 2X maybe even 3X the money for small improvements. Only the buyer can tell you if it is worth it.
 
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I agree with a lot of what he is saying. The problem with this video is he is presenting an Ed Brown as if it is the pinnacle of of 1911s. It really is on the upper tier of the middle of the pack. They are a lot of $$ money but in the world of 1911s $3,000 is not anywhere near the high end. They are solid guns but are not as popular these days as they once were. When you move to true customs is where the $$$ get nuts. Ed Brown has actually gone the other way since that video was made. They now sell more of their EVO line which is more of a modern CNC produced pistol than the older guns. They have lowered the price point on most of their offerings. They no longer make the Kobra, Executive Elite etc....

I disagree with him in terms of accuracy. For practical plinking most people won't see the difference. Higher end 1911s are going to be able to shoot 1.5" groups at 50 yards. The avg production gun made by Tisas or RIA are going to be in the 6". This might matter to you it might not. Also Ed Brown is not a custom gun. They are a small format production line gun that is semi-custom. It is not built to your spec it is built within their universe with only a few options. Nothing wrong with that but many people don't know the difference. I found it surprising that Hickock45 didn't make that distinction.

Again at every price point there is a law of diminishing returns. When you get to truly custom gun you are paying 2X maybe even 3X the money for small improvements. Only the buyer can tell you if it is worth it.

But Ed Brown has some of the sexiest stainless steel finishes IMO. I still kinda want one just to get their SS. A commander sized one would be just about right.
 
I have one of the Tisas GI models and it’s quickly becoming one of my favorite guns to take to the range. It has a permanent home in my range bag. And for sun $400 they are, in my opinion, a steal.

I also have a Ruger SR, and I agree with Wvsig. For $600-700 they are great. For any more than that you would be better served with something else.

I’ve had decent luck with RI, other than one in 10mm that had a weird part break internally that I had to send in for replacement.

Long story short, if you are just dipping your toe in the water, I’d go with the Tisas, 500 rounds of ammo, and a few extra mags. Then shoot it til it cries and you will learn what you like and don’t like about the platform.
 
The 1st gen ruger I had was not accurate nor was the Citadel. THe Tisas (service model?)I just picked up for $320 is amazing for the price. Not the last word in accuracy but I wanted a bare bones slab sides like the GI's in WWII carried and that's what it is. I shot expert with it on the old WWII GI/USMC qualifier (on the 4th try). For $1000 I'd get a Springfield Armory model in that price range. Very good 1911's IMO.
 
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