A serious question about long range shooting

JT

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If one is shooting “defense “ at that range, I believe society has already collapsed and lawlessness is running amuck. So good luck and hope it’s not a friendly/family visiting uninvited....at that distance you still have to make sure of your target.


now this coming from the back of my very small and weak mind so please be gentle with my opinion
 
Presumably
THE PUNISHER said:
If one is shooting “defense “ at that range, I believe society has already collapsed and lawlessness is running amuck.
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That's my thought too. You're hanging out wherever you can actually see 500 yards and there is a pack of folk headed your way with evil intent you may get them to change their mind or at least whittle down their numbers at range before they can get to where you're at (assuming they have to get close because they don't have long range capabilities). It's 'offensive' in the eyes of the law, but in this scenario that's no longer relevant so there should be no moral outrage either.

THE PUNISHER said:
So good luck and hope it’s not a friendly/family visiting uninvited....at that distance you still have to make sure of your target.
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That's why you put high power optics on things. You don't 'need' 24x to hit a human at 500+, but it's nice to be able to read their nametag before you pull the trigger.

EDIT: I didn't watch the video, the title is clickbaity. Something along the lines of "how many resources should you commit to long range riflemanship as part of your prepping?" sounds like a discussion. The video title is just using emotion words.
 
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I would say almost none. @Jayne pretty much spelled it out. If you are in a world where it is ok for a civilian to be shooting another person at 500 yards we have larger concerns than can I hit that guy at 500 yards,

The other thing to consider is that taking a shot at 500 yards is going to alert them that you are armed and if they have any brains they will change their tactics. Which may be worse than engaging them closer.
 
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If I need to fire upon someone at that distance I’m going to follow the lead of the cartels. They know how to get things done.


Zerohedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
www.zerohedge.com www.zerohedge.com
 
as Moth posted: "There is value in having capability to OBSERVE at those distances in todays world."

and, maybe, as CZfool68 posted, the 500 yard target is straight up.
 
wvsig said:
The other thing to consider is that taking a shot at 500 yards is going to alert them that you are armed and if they have any brains they will change their tactics. Which may be worse than engaging them closer.
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In that grid down scenario it's probably safe to assume that anyone left is armed. The soft targets are gone, I mean why would our unfriendliest be trying to advance on some rural outpost if there were still Karens in Cary (tm) to go all Clockwork Orange on?
 
Moth said:
There is value in having capability to OBSERVE at those distances in todays world. If you have that kind of property.

If that observation device happens to be mounted on a rifle, so be it.
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One of my pet peeves is people who scope out other people with their rifle scopes. Please do not do that. That would obviously not bother me at all if it was in a state of anarchy in which anyone on my land coming at me would be a potential danger to me.

Being able to hit a target at long ranges gives you options.
 
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Charlie said:
One of my pet peeves is people who scope out other people with their rifle scopes. Please do not do that. That would obviously not bother me at all if it was in a state of anarchy in which anyone on my land coming at me would be a potential danger to me.

Being able to hit a target at long ranges gives you options.
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Yes. If your optic is on a rifle, and you are scoping me, then you are pointing your rifle at me and a potential threat.
 
Agreed dropping people 200+ yards out is indicative of SHTF.

Perhaps some worn steel targets at about 200 to 300 yards would give the message hostile actions are a bad idea.
 
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Charlie said:
One of my pet peeves is people who scope out other people with their rifle scopes. Please do not do that. That would obviously not bother me at all if it was in a state of anarchy in which anyone on my land coming at me would be a potential danger to me.

Being able to hit a target at long ranges gives you options.
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Chuckman said:
Yes. If your optic is on a rifle, and you are scoping me, then you are pointing your rifle at me and a potential threat.
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Keep in mind the CONTEXT of the discussion…500 yards and SHTF scenario. I’m not suggesting you glass folks as part of a regular routine.

If the world’s gone to hell and I’m lying on a rooftop protecting my herd of cows from getting gone…I’m not going to worry about glassing a guy a 1/4 mile away.

On the other hand, if it were today and I’m glassing across a ridge looking for elk, I’ve got the spotting scope out.
 
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Moth said:
Keep in mind the CONTEXT of the discussion…500 yards and SHTF scenario. I’m not suggesting you glass folks as part of a regular routine.

If the world’s gone to hell and I’m lying on a rooftop protecting my herd of cows from getting gone…I’m not going to worry about glassing a guy a 1/4 mile away.

On the other hand, if it were today and I’m glassing across a ridge looking for elk, I’ve got the spotting scope out.
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In context, yes. And if I am glassing a guy at 500 yards, he'll never know.
 
Moth said:
Keep in mind the CONTEXT of the discussion…500 yards and SHTF scenario. I’m not suggesting you glass folks as part of a regular routine.

If the world’s gone to hell and I’m lying on a rooftop protecting my herd of cows from getting gone…I’m not going to worry about glassing a guy a 1/4 mile away.

On the other hand, if it were today and I’m glassing across a ridge looking for elk, I’ve got the spotting scope out.
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That is kinda why I bought a smallish spotting scope. Works great out to the 350 yard or so targets at our club, but it’s also small enough to throw in a pack for people or critter spotting without having to carry or point the rifle. Someone could mistake my intentions and punch a hole in me if things went wrong. Have a new rangefinder I need to play with and see what I can see with 7x magnification. Keep some binoculars in the Jeep for such things too,
 
So now that the serious use case has been solidified, is it time to go nonsensical in the thread? :eek:
 
Fun and knowing you have the ability are always worthwhile reasons to do something.

In terms of defense? Perimeter security. Large-scale property protection. Ranching of roaming livestock across large swathes of open land. Keeping other people away from your home base - you have a perimeter fence and signs saying to keep out, and by God you mean it. Mountain ranging and find&evade missions. Things far past the scope of what the average person will ever do, but someone with more training and/or more to manage might find useful.
 
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I thought this was the Carolina Firearms Forum. ;) How many of you have an unobstructed view 500+yds from your property?

I get the pleasure derived from working out the technical aspects of making long range shots and how satisfying it must be to accomplish it, but I just don't see the value, at least not where I live. 500-1000yd and over shots may be useful harrasing an approaching party down a highway or power easement, but IMO not from where most people will be defending their homesteads.

I've spent some effort trying to become proficient with subs out to 200 yards, which provides some of the same technical challenges of longer range shooting, and still with the anonymity of someone shooting from much farther away. I just think that's a more useful capability around these parts and enough of a challenge to remain interesting. Most off the shelf subsonic ammo is just not very accurate, probably because they don't expect you to shoot it beyond 50-100yds and only need a 5" kill zone to take that hog or deer so there is a lot of load development involved. I want effective head shot accuracy at 200 yds.

Oh yeah, and a heck of a lot cheaper in terms of equipment.
 
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JT said:
Prompted by this video:

ncrenegade.com

Why do preppers or anyone need the ability and skill set to shoot a rifle up to 500-900 meters away?

Visit the post for more.
ncrenegade.com

Against all hope, I'm interested in a serious discussion of - specifically - the practical value of defensive shooting skills for targets at, say, 500 yards and greater. (Other than the confidence gained in shooting at more tactical ranges, that is.)
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Quite simply the ability to stop them in their tracks at distance. How important is it to be unapproachable from a defensive position? Do you want attackers to approach close enough that they could plant traps, or harmful devices, or surveillance in your immediate vicinity? Assuming the approaching person or persons has a means to communicate, how well do you want them to be able to describe your fortifications? Is it better or worse for you that they have to look from a distance, or do you want them giving their intel from an up close perspective?

It's very simple to me, the farther away I can stop you in your tracks, the more time and distance I have to respond to whatever threat you and your squad pose.
 
I haven't watched the video, but I'll share what I was taught...

Yes, were talking about a time when Rule of Law has collapsed. And we're talking about being in an area that allows for that kind of range.

It's about stand off distance. The average effective range of a rifleman is about 300yds. This has been extended somewhat by the popularity of LPOV's, but the ability of the shooter is still a factor. So, being able to engage outside the opponent's normal effective range is an advantage. And the further you can extend your effective range, the better.
This is also a reason you don't want to fight from your house, among others. Fighting from your house means all those incoming rounds are impacting the house. You want to fight from a perimeter 300yds from the house. So, if you're stuck in a neighborhood with houses close together, set up a perimeter down the road at the neighborhood entrance or further.
Anyway, stand off.

On my road, from the driveway, the first cross street south is about 500yds. and I can see that intersection. In the other direction a bridge is at about 350yds and then uphill to about 1000. So, yeah, I've got that range.
 
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Flashpoint said:
I thought this was the Carolina Firearms Forum. ;) How many of you have an unobstructed view 500+yds from your property?

I get the pleasure derived from working out the technical aspects of making long range shots and how satisfying it must be to accomplish it, but I just don't see the value, at least not where I live. 500-1000yd and over shots may be useful harrasing an approaching party down a highway or power easement, but IMO not from where most people will be defending their homesteads.

I've spent some effort trying to become proficient with subs out to 200 yards, which provides some of the same technical challenges of longer range shooting, and still with the anonymity of someone shooting from much farther away. I just think that's a more useful capability around these parts and enough of a challenge to remain interesting. Most off the shelf subsonic ammo is just not very accurate, probably because they don't expect you to shoot it beyond 50-100yds and only need a 5" kill zone to take that hog or deer so there is a lot of load development involved. I want effective head shot accuracy at 200 yds.

Oh yeah, and a heck of a lot cheaper in terms of equipment.
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I have an unobstructed 500 yard view of the rest of the3/4 acre lots and houses....

@Matt.Cross , that works in some areas. Not in mine. They can drive by 40 feet away and surveil my property.

But if we are going to play in Fantasyland about such shooting for HD (at those distances it isn't SD), my AR is good for whatever distances I need to shoot (not directed at you @Matt.Cross , just general statement in the vein of this thread).
 
As someone else said everyone will be armed. Would you really murder members of a family/party just trying to get from point a to point b? How can you possibly determine someone's intentions without them on motorcycles and wearing WW1 spiked German helmets? 😛
 
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Chuckman said:
I have an unobstructed 500 yard view of the rest of the3/4 acre lots and houses....

@Matt.Cross , that works in some areas. Not in mine. They can drive by 40 feet away and surveil my property.

But if we are going to play in Fantasyland about such shooting for HD (at those distances it isn't SD), my AR is good for whatever distances I need to shoot (not directed at you @Matt.Cross , just general statement in the vein of this thread).
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That's perfectly fair, and I'm painting with a broad brush because I can't speak to specifics for anyone besides myself.
 
Assuming this is a complete SHTF scenario, you have a couple choices- 1) Don't shoot, observe. Keeps the intel up a bit and doesn't reveal your location or capabilities. If it's just some folk transiting the area with no hostile intent, then you won't have made enemies needlessly. 2) Shoot first. Keeps the baddies on their toes at a distance but also lets them know your capabilities. Also, you might shoot a potential ally who is now your enemy.

So from my observations- most folks can't shoot offhand for shinola. Basic marksmanship is a skill that is lacking in the sexy run n gun tacticool school. I'd say that a person would be better off becoming very proficient out to 2-300 in position shooting and take some tacticool shooting for CQB stuff secondary. My personal philosophy is if they're close enough for CQB tactics, they're tooooo close. Back off and apply high explosives and artillery.
 
georgel said:
I haven't watched the video, but I'll share what I was taught...

Yes, were talking about a time when Rule of Law has collapsed. And we're talking about being in an area that allows for that kind of range.

It's about stand off distance. The average effective range of a rifleman is about 300yds. This has been extended somewhat by the popularity of LPOV's, but the ability of the shooter is still a factor. So, being able to engage outside the opponent's normal effective range is an advantage. And the further you can extend your effective range, the better.
This is also a reason you don't want to fight from your house, among others. Fighting from your house means all those incoming rounds are impacting the house. You want to fight from a perimeter 300yds from the house. So, if you're stuck in a neighborhood with houses close together, set up a perimeter down the road at the neighborhood entrance or further.
Anyway, stand off.

On my road, from the driveway, the first cross street south is about 500yds. and I can see that intersection. In the other direction a bridge is at about 350yds and then uphill to about 1000. So, yeah, I've got that range.
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Thank you for this ! The money quote is "This is also a reason you don't want to fight from your house". If it's turned that bad, you def don't want to go "barricade" from a position where your loved ones/logistics are. Our homes are not built for this, unless you've built a castle. There's a reason we do OP/LP and patrols in the military.
To answer the original question, see Jaynes post above.
 
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xtp308 said:
Thank you for this ! The money quote is "This is also a reason you don't want to fight from your house". If it's turned that bad, you def don't want to go "barricade" from a position where your loved ones/logistics are. Our homes are not built for this, unless you've built a castle. There's a reason we do OP/LP and patrols in the military.
To answer the original question, see Jaynes post above.
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Some of that info came from someone I know, who's primary role in the military was securing bases and establishing perimeters.
 
You can go on Goggle Earth and pull up your AO. Print a copy and then use the distance feature to measure off basic distances from point to point. Mark the distances on your printed copy.
 
Moth said:
If the world’s gone to hell and I’m lying on a rooftop protecting my herd of cows from getting gone…I’m not going to worry about glassing a guy a 1/4 mile away.
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^^^ This. Exactly This. I know a group of farmers and all of their families practice out to a thousand because they can see two thousand. And while none of them would dare squeeze a trigger now..... it is for SHTF only. This group of farmers live on a 16 mile stretch of road and there are only so many scouts you can have.
 
We ( VODTac ) believe you, as a protector should OWN 300 yards. Nothing should move or live within that range unless you allow it to. 0 to 100 yards with the handgun, 0 to 300 yards with the rifle.
In order to do this, you need to be very good at 500 yards, for the skills and confidence, as OP noted. Whatever the edge of your normal envelope is, in most any factor of life, you should be practicing beyond that.
My 2 cents, YMMV
 
I think if you're a "prepper" then that means you "prepare". What you prepare for is entirely up to you. Most in this world would consider me a prepper. Some on this forum would consider me "prepper light". I choose to have the ability to shoot past 500y. Doesn't mean I ever will. I also wear my seat belt, yet I never plan on having an accident.
 
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