Coated Bullets and Titegroup

Cucamonga

Cucamonga

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Picked up some titegroup power and am interested in loading using either Bayou, or Black Bullets with the Hi-Tek coating. Most, if not all shooting will be target practice using a Glock 19 and AR carbine.

I know one guy that reloads titegroup and 115 Gr. black bullets, competes, and is happy with the results, little smoke and an accurate round. I would like to hear more and learn from those that currently use this power and coated bullets. Cost wise a 115 Gr bullet is the lowest cost but are there advantages/disadvantages of using a heaver bullet with titegroup? I understand titegroup is a fast burning hot power and that very little power is used so extra attention to proper charge weight is a requirement.

Reloading equipment is Lee Classic Turret, I will be starting out using this as a single stage press and move to progressive once I convince myself that I know what I am doing and gain confidence.

Getting back into reloading after being away for many years so assume I am a newbie so feel free to give advise accordantly and answer questions I haven't thought to ask.
 
Skip the 115s and go with 124 or 147s. Not any more accurate but alot better shooting in recoil impulse, low charge weights.
 
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Forum sponsor Lucky13 sells coated bullets. Hard to beat his prices.

Titegroup is fine. It will smoke some in just about any combination, as the shooter you will never notice.

115s are fine, if economy is the primary motivator use them. For whatever reason 120-5s seem to be easier to get good groups from for a lot of folks. 147s will give a more pleasant recoil loaded down while still functioning in stock firearms.

Only trick to coated is flare enough to be able to set the bullet in not just on. And don't crimp hard, just take the flare off, maybe a touch more, pull a few, should be no loss of coating.
 
I don't shoot a Glock, but in the AR-9 I shoot 147gr coated RN over 3.4g of Titegroup. Quiet when suppressed, good firearm function. Have tried as low as 3.2gr and had cycling problems. Tried 3.9 under 124gr FMJ the other day and they were accurate and still subsonic.

If I was looking for high velocity loads rather than suppressor loads I'm not sure what I'd use, but probably something a bit slower than Titegroup.
 
I load Blues with titegroup and have good results. Started with the 115's and moved to my go to 147 recipe. I found that steel will laugh at 115's unless you load them hot. The subsonic 147 gives a little more of a straight push versus a more snappy 115.

Get a manual and start at the bottom and work your way up. Good thing about titegroup is the burn consistency with very low charge weight. As they put it, "a little goes a long way."

Make sure you plunk and spin with your barrel to ensure the case overall length is appropriate for your chamber AND your magazines!


Final thought: I hear some say that it will react to the poly coating if they sit around but my ammo gets shot so I have zero complaints.
 
Beef15 said:
Only trick to coated is flare enough to be able to set the bullet in not just on. And don't crimp hard, just take the flare off, maybe a touch more, pull a few, should be no loss of coating.
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@JimB

Add this to our discussion/demonstration agenda. :D
 
Slappy McTrigger said:
Final thought: I hear some say that it will react to the poly coating if they sit around but my ammo gets shot so I have zero complaints.
Click to expand...

Doesn't take very long. Also doesn't do anything significant so far as I could tell to groups or smoke and fouling. Pre chrono days, but doubt anything happened there either.

Just wastes a little powder if you wait too long before pulling.
 
Beef15 said:
Doesn't take very long. Also doesn't do anything significant so far as I could tell to groups or smoke and fouling. Pre chrono days, but doubt anything happened there either.

Just wastes a little powder if you wait too long before pulling.
Click to expand...
So then what does it do?

If it's not affecting accuracy or velocity, what's the downside?

I ask because Lucky's zombie rounds and Titegroup is what I'm about to start loading...and it may sit around for a year or more due to quantity loaded and my volume of shooting.
 
I like 124 over 115 because i can reach power factor and still be subsonic, it shoots softer and still hits steel plenty hard. Cost increase is minimal but performance increase is substantial.
 
BigWaylon said:
So then what does it do?

If it's not affecting accuracy or velocity, what's the downside?

I ask because Lucky's zombie rounds and Titegroup is what I'm about to start loading...and it may sit around for a year or more due to quantity loaded and my volume of shooting.
Click to expand...


If I'm not mistaken the nitroglycerin content of titegroup is what reacts to the polymer coating. It bubbles up on the inside of the case. You may want to look at plated if you were going to store them for a year.
 
Slappy McTrigger said:
If I'm not mistaken the nitroglycerin content of titegroup is what reacts to the polymer coating. It bubbles up on the inside of the case. You may want to look at plated if you were going to store them for a year.
Click to expand...

Yes, the solvent in the high nitro powders tends to attack polymers, including those used to coat bullets and those beautiful clear plastic tubes on powder measures. There was some concern when this was first discovered that it would affect performance, but the problems simply have not developed.

As for loading and storing, why do it at all? If you have the tools and components at hand, why load more than you need for a few weeks or a month? Some of you may be amused to know that I broke down 500 rounds a week or so ago that were loaded in 1973, red dot still looked good but I trashed it anyway.

As for plated, I have lots of them, but I do not find them to be nearly as accurate as either jacketed or coated. I can't explain why this is, but it is.

@BigWaylon very few folks that reload shoot the same volume that they did when they were buying bullets, you should expect to shoot twice as much!
 
So, the powdercoat is affected by the powder, but the powder isn't necessarily affected by the reaction? (Thus no loss in accuracy or velocity)

For me, since I won't have a dedicated reloading area for now, I'd rather load up a thousand or two and not worry about having to do it just before heading out to shoot. Even if I doubled the amount I shoot, that's many months worth of ammo.

I guess I could always store them with the bullet facing up, so maybe no contact is made? :D
 
BigWaylon said:
So, the powdercoat is affected by the powder, but the powder isn't necessarily affected by the reaction? (Thus no loss in accuracy or velocity)

For me, since I won't have a dedicated reloading area for now, I'd rather load up a thousand or two and not worry about having to do it just before heading out to shoot. Even if I doubled the amount I shoot, that's many months worth of ammo.

I guess I could always store them with the bullet facing up, so maybe no contact is made? :D
Click to expand...

So far as I could tell, yes.

The bases of the ones I pulled were gooey, with a single layer of powder flakes stuck to it.

The ones I've shot, that were at least as old as the pulled had no noticeable issues.
 
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@BigWaylon don't get suckered into those plastic clamshell ammo boxes for storage. I did and I hate them but I cannot bring myself to trash them either. Loose in a 30 cal can is the way to go.
 
Catfish said:
@BigWaylon don't get suckered into those plastic clamshell ammo boxes for storage. I did and I hate them but I cannot bring myself to trash them either. Loose in a 30 cal can is the way to go.
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I'd been pondering what to do. Actually found a guy selling the case of boxes and styrofoam trays Midway sells (similar to some factory ammo) for ~1/2 price and grabbed it. May not go that route after these run out, but that's what I'll start with. So, it would be simple to store them upside down (from normal) if that would make any difference.
 
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Catfish said:
@BigWaylon don't get suckered into those plastic clamshell ammo boxes for storage. I did and I hate them but I cannot bring myself to trash them either. Loose in a 30 cal can is the way to go.
Click to expand...

Shush! I'm going to make him take a few with him!

BTW, I do like them for testing and for small batches of larger calibers.
 
BigWaylon said:
So, the powdercoat is affected by the powder, but the powder isn't necessarily affected by the reaction? (Thus no loss in accuracy or velocity)

For me, since I won't have a dedicated reloading area for now, I'd rather load up a thousand or two and not worry about having to do it just before heading out to shoot. Even if I doubled the amount I shoot, that's many months worth of ammo.

I guess I could always store them with the bullet facing up, so maybe no contact is made? :D
Click to expand...
Just store the bullets upside down. Simple fix if you're using Titegroup with polymer bullets.
 
I ordered up some 115's and 124's from two suppliers to try out. I know to load a few rounds starting at the minimum and work up from there for each bullet weight. What about the crimp, all I read is light crimp but is there a measurment, say case diamenter I can check to verify proper crimp?
 
Cucamonga said:
I ordered up some 115's and 124's from two suppliers to try out. I know to load a few rounds starting at the minimum and work up from there for each bullet weight. What about the crimp, all I read is light crimp but is there a measurment, say case diamenter I can check to verify proper crimp?
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For 9mm you just want to remove the bell. If you can feel the bell then crimp more, if you're cutting into the coating (check by pulling a bullet) or making a serious ring in the bullet, then crimp less.
 
Cucamonga said:
I ordered up some 115's and 124's from two suppliers to try out. I know to load a few rounds starting at the minimum and work up from there for each bullet weight. What about the crimp, all I read is light crimp but is there a measurment, say case diamenter I can check to verify proper crimp?
Click to expand...
Case thickness x2 + bullet diameter = crimp diameter, - 0.001/2 won't hurt
9mm coated is usually something like 0.376"
It is measured literally on the very edge of the case mouth, keeping everything square and staying on the case is kind of a pain so I just eyeball it.
 
Regarding crimp on 9mm, basically just remove the bell as Jim stated.

Just know that if your using mixed headstamps, it's unrealistic to expect consistency since different headstamps are different lengths.
Use the shortest piece of brass to setup your die. Worst case, it slightly over crimps the longest piece.
Not the end of the world.
A case guage is very useful to find any over or under crimped rounds. This will happen when loading mixed headstamps.
 
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Cucamonga said:
I ordered up some 115's and 124's from two suppliers to try out. I know to load a few rounds starting at the minimum and work up from there for each bullet weight. What about the crimp, all I read is light crimp but is there a measurment, say case diamenter I can check to verify proper crimp?
Click to expand...

No there is not a std measurement AFAIK. I use a straight-edge and hold it against the case after crimping, then look toward a bright light. If there is any flare left you will be able to see it this way. Also if you are over-crimping you will see the case mouth bent inward this way. You'll see some irregularities along the case wall and that's normal but you want the brass to be straight at the case mouth.
 
I load coated 9mm 147 gn (zombies) plated and straight lead in my AR9. 3.2gn of Titegroup but I usually am running a TiRant .45 can on it.

If it doesn't cycle the gun, it's usually some other fault. Like bad mag springs in my case.
 
Cranbiz said:
I load coated 9mm 147 gn (zombies) plated and straight lead in my AR9. 3.2gn of Titegroup but I usually am running a TiRant .45 can on it.

If it doesn't cycle the gun, it's usually some other fault. Like bad mag springs in my case.
Click to expand...
I know it's specific to the barrel, but curious what length you load them to?

BTW...is there a standard term to use for that? I've seen OAL, COL, and COAL mentioned.
 
Cucamonga said:
I ordered up some 115's and 124's from two suppliers to try out. I know to load a few rounds starting at the minimum and work up from there for each bullet weight. What about the crimp, all I read is light crimp but is there a measurment, say case diamenter I can check to verify proper crimp?
Click to expand...

Actually, there is a spec. SAAMI has dimensions spec'd for all common cartridges.

Beef15 said:
Case thickness x2 + bullet diameter = crimp diameter, - 0.001/2 won't hurt
9mm coated is usually something like 0.376"
It is measured literally on the very edge of the case mouth, keeping everything square and staying on the case is kind of a pain so I just eyeball it.
Click to expand...

^^^^ Pretty much what he said. SAAMI spec for 9mm case mouth is 0.380" +0/-0.007", so what Beef said would be right in the middle of the range. But as long as you crimp just enough to remove the flare and then be able to pass the plunk test, you should be good.
 
I managed to mount my classic turret press to the bench and make a couple of 9mm rounds with out powder or primers. Using my Glock barrel I do get a slight plunk dropping the round into the barrel but it will not fall free when turning the barrel upside down, it also will not spin. I pulled the bullets and the coating is intact, no scratches. Notice the cases are expanded in the area that the bullet seats, a problem I assume since factory ammo is not this way.

Please look over my picture and numbers and give me your opinions and suggestions. I think this is going to be the first of many questions....

1.162" Overall length
0.372" Sized case mouth OD
0.377 Belled case mouth OD
0.376 Crimped case mouth OD

IMG_1590[774].JPG
 
Cucamonga said:
I managed to mount my classic turret press to the bench and make a couple of 9mm rounds with out powder or primers. Using my Glock barrel I do get a slight plunk dropping the round into the barrel but it will not fall free when turning the barrel upside down, it also will not spin. I pulled the bullets and the coating is intact, no scratches. Notice the cases are expanded in the area that the bullet seats, a problem I assume since factory ammo is not this way.

Please look over my picture and numbers and give me your opinions and suggestions. I think this is going to be the first of many questions....

1.162" Overall length
0.372" Sized case mouth OD
0.377 Belled case mouth OD
0.376 Crimped case mouth OD

View attachment 5700
Click to expand...
Try seating a bit deeper to 1.135 ish-1.125 ish and try the "plunk" test again.
 
Mike Overlay said:
Try seating a bit deeper to 1.135 ish-1.125 ish and try the "plunk" test again.
Click to expand...
That was going to be close to my suggestion. :D

With all the plunking I've done in the last week, and all the manuals I've flipped through, 1.16" seemed long.
 
The only thing I'll add to the above is that the cartridge looks good, the narrow waist is typical of reloaded 9mm rounds and is not a problem. Some refer to it as a coke bottle shape, others say wasp-waisted, but in any event it is what you want.
 
Agree with all the above. I suspect the bullet is seated a little too long for your gun.

The COL listed in load data was for THAT particular bullet used. The significance of the COL in the load data, if you are not using the same projectile, is that it is ok for you to seat longer if it will work in your gun, but don't seat shorter without dropping the charge. Seating deeper decreases internal volume and will increase pressure.

When I start using a new projectile, the first thing I do is to plunk test several of them in all my guns of that caliber. (After a while, I learn which gun has the tighter chamber and will just use that one). I determine where it starts to touch the lands, and I typically back off about 0.020". I will back off more if necessary for it to fit the mag and/or feed reliably.

I frequently use two different 45acp 230gn projectiles. I can not seat them to the same OAL and have them work in my guns. The first has a much shorter nose than the second. I have to seat the first to 1.200" to work in all of my guns. If I seat the second to 1.200", the ogive is recessed slightly inside the case mouth, I typically seat the second to 1.245" or more. Since they are seated to significantly different COL, I have worked loads up for each one and use different charges as a result.
 
Mike Overlay said:
Try seating a bit deeper to 1.135 ish-1.125 ish and try the "plunk" test again.
Click to expand...

I brought the over all length down to 1.125 and Kerplunk she went, passed the spin test and fell out of when I turned the barrel up. I then attempted to find the sweet spot and learnt at 1.140 all test still pass but 1.150 will not pass the test so would 1.140 be a good place to leave it? All of this was done using my Glock barrel.

Now to add some confusion, at least for me. In my AR9 Carbine, tried the plunk test using 1.125 and 1.140 length and no plunk, no spin, and will not fall free. Then for the heck of it I put a heavy crimp on just in case this was preventing seating, no go this did not help.

I have some Tula and Winchester ammo so tried in in the AR9, Win passes all tests, Tula would not fall freely from the barrel or spin? I decided to measure bullet diameter, Tul is .355, Win is .354, and coated bullet is .356.

The AR9 is a new PSA that I have only put 50 rounds through. Do you think it may just need to be broken in or is their possible an out of spec condition?
 
Cucamonga said:
I brought the over all length down to 1.125 and Kerplunk she went, passed the spin test and fell out of when I turned the barrel up. I then attempted to find the sweet spot and learnt at 1.140 all test still pass but 1.150 will not pass the test so would 1.140 be a good place to leave it? All of this was done using my Glock barrel.

Now to add some confusion, at least for me. In my AR9 Carbine, tried the plunk test using 1.125 and 1.140 length and no plunk, no spin, and will not fall free. Then for the heck of it I put a heavy crimp on just in case this was preventing seating, no go this did not help.

I have some Tula and Winchester ammo so tried in in the AR9, Win passes all tests, Tula would not fall freely from the barrel or spin? I decided to measure bullet diameter, Tul is .355, Win is .354, and coated bullet is .356.

The AR9 is a new PSA that I have only put 50 rounds through. Do you think it may just need to be broken in or is their possible an out of spec condition?
Click to expand...

I would run the 1.140, wouldnt worry to much about the ar9 as long as it feeds, fires and ejects.
 
Mike Overlay said:
I would run the 1.140, wouldnt worry to much about the ar9 as long as it feeds, fires and ejects.
Click to expand...

This...HOWEVER- PSA released a batch of AR9 carbines recently that had super tight chambers. They have been correcting it if you send then the carbine. Yours might be one of them.
TROS would call it a "match chamber", I call it a screwup.
(Yes, that's a dig on TROS.)
They actually told me my 5" 9mm bbl had a match chamber, that's why cases that pass a case guage stick.
Sheesh.
 
Slacker said:
This...HOWEVER- PSA released a batch of AR9 carbines recently that had super tight chambers. They have been correcting it if you send then the carbine. Yours might be one of them.
TROS would call it a "match chamber", I call it a screwup.
(Yes, that's a dig on TROS.)
They actually told me my 5" 9mm bbl had a match chamber, that's why cases that pass a case guage stick.
Sheesh.
Click to expand...

They released a batch of 9mm uppers that would crunch brass, even empty brass. The rear of the barrel extension was about 0.040" too short. If you placed an empty 9mm brass case in the chamber, the bolt would not fully close. I know at least 2 other people that had the same issue. I sent mine back (they paid shipping both ways) and that problem was fixed. BUT, it does still have a slightly tighter chamber (forward of the case mouth) such that I have to seat the bullets a little deeper. I really like the accuracy I get with mine now, though, so I'm not going to change a thing, I just work up loads especially for the carbine, but they will still work well in my pistols.
 
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