Coated Bullets and Titegroup

I reloaded 8 of the 1.140 over all length dummy rounds this morning, loaded up a Glock mag and manually cycled the G19, no issues at all, they feed and eject as they should so I'll load about 10 live rounds using 3.9/4.0 grains of titegroup and hopefully have time to go test firm next weekend.

Results in the AR9 were a failure. Manually cycling letting the bolt freely fall forward, I was not able to pull the bolt back and had to use a wooded dowel and tap the round out of the chamber. I am guessing this means I may have gotten one of PSA's guns with the tight chamber, is there something else I should be looking at as a cause?I've only fired the AR9 once a few weeks ago and then had one failure where the spent round ended up not ejecting from the gun and landed just above the hammer. Is there a thread someone can point me to about the chamber issue with PSA's AR9's?
 
Cucamonga said:
I reloaded 8 of the 1.140 over all length dummy rounds this morning, loaded up a Glock mag and manually cycled the G19, no issues at all, they feed and eject as they should so I'll load about 10 live rounds using 3.9/4.0 grains of titegroup and hopefully have time to go test firm next weekend.

Results in the AR9 were a failure. Manually cycling letting the bolt freely fall forward, I was not able to pull the bolt back and had to use a wooded dowel and tap the round out of the chamber. I am guessing this means I may have gotten one of PSA's guns with the tight chamber, is there something else I should be looking at as a cause?I've only fired the AR9 once a few weeks ago and then had one failure where the spent round ended up not ejecting from the gun and landed just above the hammer. Is there a thread someone can point me to about the chamber issue with PSA's AR9's?
Click to expand...

Did you seat the bullet deeper and see if the sticking issue still happens?
I think a factory loaded PMC 124GR RN is under 1.14 COAL.
 
Slacker said:
Did you seat the bullet deeper and see if the sticking issue still happens?
I think a factory loaded PMC 124GR RN is under 1.14 COAL.
Click to expand...


Yes Sir, I did seat the bullet deeper, about 1.100, same problem described above in the carbine. There are witness marks on the bullet coating.
 
On most of the AR9 barrels you will need to load way short or switch to plated or fmj bullets to get them to plunk unless you want to ream the barrel.
 
Skeeter190 said:
On most of the AR9 barrels you will need to load way short or switch to plated or fmj bullets to get them to plunk unless you want to ream the barrel.
Click to expand...

I have used CMMG, QC10 & TROS AR9 Barrels. The CMMG & QC10 required no reaming. All I use are coated.
The TROS was stupid tight.
Rounds that easily pass the case guage would stick.

@Cucamonga ,
Do you own a 9mm case guage?
 
Cucamonga said:
I do not have a case gage, have been using the barrels off of two Glock 19's.
Click to expand...

Glocks have very loose chambers.
Rounds that plunk in a Glock often will stick in a CZ or a Browning.
I would not use a Glock chamber to guage rounds for other brand guns.
Keep in mind that a case guage measures dimensions, but not COAL.
 
Cucamonga said:
I reloaded 8 of the 1.140 over all length dummy rounds this morning, loaded up a Glock mag and manually cycled the G19, no issues at all, they feed and eject as they should so I'll load about 10 live rounds using 3.9/4.0 grains of titegroup and hopefully have time to go test firm next weekend.

Results in the AR9 were a failure. Manually cycling letting the bolt freely fall forward, I was not able to pull the bolt back and had to use a wooded dowel and tap the round out of the chamber. I am guessing this means I may have gotten one of PSA's guns with the tight chamber, is there something else I should be looking at as a cause?I've only fired the AR9 once a few weeks ago and then had one failure where the spent round ended up not ejecting from the gun and landed just above the hammer. Is there a thread someone can point me to about the chamber issue with PSA's AR9's?
Click to expand...

I thought I had posted some info about my PSA 9mm woes, but can't seem to find it now.

Basically, my PSA complete upper had a SERIOUS headspace issue. The rear of the barrel was about 0.040" short, such that it would crunch the cases when chambering. Just so everyone knows, this was not a matter of the throat or leade being tight, this was strictly bolt face to case mouth dimension. When I put an empty 9mm case in the barrel and let the bolt slam home, it would roll crimp the case mouth. I loaded some dummy rounds, that passed the plunk test in the barrel, and manually cycled them and this is what they came out looking like:

IMG_0197.JPG

I sent the whole gun back to PSA, they paid the shipping both ways. I got it back in 2 weeks working fine. I know of at least 2 others that had the same headspace issue.
 
Received the case gauge today. All of the dummy rounds I loaded dropped right into the gauge and bottomed out, the case head sits within the gauge range, and the bullet tip doesn't exceed the max length. By all accounts I think the rounds I checked are all within acceptable ranges and I should be good to go to make some live rounds.

So with this information in hand, is it safe to assume that the issue I am having with the carbine is gun chamber related?

IMG_1643[806].JPG
 
Last edited:
Cucamonga said:
Received the case gauge today. All of the dummy rounds I loaded dropped right into the gauge and bottomed out, the case head sits within the gauge range, and the bullet tip doesn't exceed the max length. By all accounts I think the rounds I checked are all within acceptable ranges and I should be good to go to make some live rounds.

So with this information in hand, is it safe to assume that the issue I am having with the carbine is gun chamber related?
Click to expand...

The dummy rounds could pass the case gage test and still not plunk properly in the chamber of the rifle. The case gage does not replicate the throat or leade (forward of the case mouth) of your gun. The bullet could still be seated too long for the chamber, even if the COL is less than SAAMI max.
 
If I understand correctly the gauge is telling me the reloaded round is within specification. Since I have loaded a dummy round as short as 1.100 and still the round will not plunk and gets lodged in the chamber to the point I had to use a rod to dislodge it and the coated bullet doesn't have any marks indicating it was pushed into the barrel, am I safe to assume the bullet is ok and not the issue? If the bullet could still be the problem what else can I do to correct and make it work with the rifle?
 
The problem with the AR9 and reloaded ammo is well documented on the Facebook PCC page and the Brian Enos PCC threads. It is all about bullet profile. I gave up looking for a coated bullet that would work.

You have five choices to solve the problem:

1.) Send the barrel back to its maker and have it reamed.

2.) Buy a Manson throat reamer and ream it yourself.

3.) Load the round much shorter and to the minimum suggested by SAAMI for the 9mm round (1.0 inch).

4.) Find a different bullet.

5.) Buy a different barrel.

Myself, Skeeter and many others shooting the PCC in competition have been down this road. My solution was to use a 124 gr FMJ bullet sold by Precision Delta. If you buy them in 2000 rd lots, the cost shipped works out to a little under .09 cents per bullet. I can load these to 1.14 OAL with no issues in my Kaw Valley barrel.

A Manson throat reamer will cost you about $60 the last time I checked.

A new barrel is the priciest of solutions but one that may involve the fewest headaches in the end.

Good luck to ya!
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
ncav8tor said:
The problem with the AR9 and reloaded ammo is well documented on the Facebook PCC page and the Brian Enos PCC threads. It is all about bullet profile. I gave up looking for a coated bullet that would work.
Click to expand...
Is that specific to the PSA AR9?

I'd always assumed my LWD Glock barrels would be the issue and anything would feed in my 9mm AR? It's not a PSA version though...it's from JSE. I haven't tried plunking any of my reloads in it.
 
If it is not plunking, and no marks on the bullet, try coating the brass with a sharpie and see if the ink is removed from the brass. Could be the bullets are sized a little large and expanding the brass. Still, if it fits the case gage, it should be good. The chamber may be tighter than SAAMI specs.

FYI, I've had great luck with the new RMR 115 FMJ bullets in my PSA 9mm AR. I seat them to 1.100". They feed great and are accurate (1.5" @ 50 yards). I get about 1500fps with 6.1gn Power Pistol. For quantity of 1000, less than $0.08 each, shipped.
 
BW, I've owned CMMG, QC10 and TROS barrel AR9's. The first two were normal chambers, no issues with any of my reloads.
The TROS (5") was a "match chamber" and needed to be reamed.

(Yes, TROS told me factory ammo stuck in it because it was a 5", match grade 9mm barrel)
 
My experience is with the Kaw Valley barrels & the PSA barrels.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Slacker said:
Send the upper back to PSA, USPS.
They are well aware of this issue.
Insist they pay shipping costs.

Eta, what brand is that case guage?

Eta, forgot about this guy. He did a CZ chamber while I waited. He is in Raleigh.
He did a great job. Send him a dummy round and he will ream to suit.

https://m.facebook.com/Cylinderhonenet-756429174391912/?ref=content_filter
Click to expand...

The gauge is from a company called "The Shooters Box"
http://www.theshootersbox.com/Case-Ammunition-Gauge_c_1223.html
 
I called PSA on Thursday and explained the issue I am having with reloads and that I have a gauge that indicates the round is in spec. Without hesitation the customer support representative told me he was sending me a UPS return label and PSA will pay shipping both directions. The rep noticed that my lower was also PSA, purchased on a separate order and requested it also be returned for review. I shipped today including a detailed letter to aide in getting the rifle fixed, so I am hoping it will be returned to 2-3 weeks and run like a champ, if not well I will be disappointed...

Now for the bright side of todays news report.;)
I loaded up 20 rounds using 115gr black bullets
Titegroup powder 4.0
COAL 1.125/1.130 Mixed hear stamped brass
Crimp .377/.378

Out of the 20 rounds I had one that ejected but did not clear the slide. Guessing that the load is a little light and the slide is not going all the way rearward and the round was caught on the slides forward movement? Spent cases look good but are a little black on the outside in one area.

The Lee reloading manual list a max load of 4.3gn for (lead bullets, mine are coated), would you suggest a power charge increase?

EDIT: The rounds fired today were fired in the Glock 19
 
Last edited:
Cucamonga said:
I called PSA on Thursday and explained the issue I am having with reloads and that I have a gauge that indicates the round is in spec. Without hesitation the customer support representative told me he was sending me a UPS return label and PSA will pay shipping both directions. The rep noticed that my lower was also PSA, purchased on a separate order and requested it also be returned for review. I shipped today including a detailed letter to aide in getting the rifle fixed, so I am hoping it will be returned to 2-3 weeks and run like a champ, if not well I will be disappointed...

Now for the bright side of todays news report.;)
I loaded up 20 rounds using 115gr black bullets
Titegroup powder 4.0
COAL 1.125/1.130 Mixed hear stamped brass
Crimp .377/.378

Out of the 20 rounds I had one that ejected but did not clear the slide. Guessing that the load is a little light and the slide is not going all the way rearward and the round was caught on the slides forward movement? Spent cases look good but are a little black on the outside in one area.

The Lee reloading manual list a max load of 4.3gn for (lead bullets, mine are coated), would you suggest a power charge increase?
Click to expand...

Be mindful of the specific OAL or COAL of the lead bullet Lee reloading data you reference. Shorter rounds will result in higher pressures. Longer OAL will allow you to go with a little more powder.

Don (aka: Lucky13) would be your "go-to-guy" on this question about a pure lead bullet. I haven't shot a pure lead bullet in so long I cannot even give a semi-intelligent answer to your question. Generally speaking, a coated bullet will require less powder (think .2-.3 grains less) than a FMJ or plated bullet to achieve the same velocity with the same bullet weight. But again, you need to pay attention to the OAL, particularly with a "blow-back" design firearm.

Keep in mind, that PCC is extremely dirty and will result in severely blackened brass regardless of what kind of projectile you are loading. It is dirty even in a gas piston system PCC.

Are you using a chrono for your load work-up?

EDITED: for clarity
 
I did not chrono the rounds, I do not have a crono.

Note that I edited my post to clearify that the 20 rounds fired today were fired in the Glock 19, not the PSA carbine.
 
Cucamonga said:
I did not chrono the rounds, I do not have a crono.

Note that I edited my post to clearify that the 20 rounds fired today were fired in the Glock 19, not the PSA carbine.
Click to expand...

In the Glock 19, you will likely need to bump up the charge a few grains.
 
I noticed that a few of my range pick up brass cases have primer pockets that look like there is an insert in them, it this the military crimp I hear about?

FullSizeRender.jpg
 
Yes. If you look closely, you will see the circle with a cross in it. That symbol stands for NATO, and any NATO cartridge will have crimped primers. It is not hard to remove the crimp, and once it is done to a case you will never have to do it again.
 
Cucamonga said:
I did not chrono the rounds, I do not have a crono.

Note that I edited my post to clearify that the 20 rounds fired today were fired in the Glock 19, not the PSA carbine.
Click to expand...

I have a chronograph and am willing to assist in chronographing your loads. I am in Mills River. PM me and we can try to work it out.
 
Received my AR9 back from PSA, they included a brief note explaining that my barrel was the problem and that they had put a new barrel one and test fired 20 rounds with out an issue. I plunk tested about 20 each of Winchester and Tula rounds and all plunked, I then test fired about 75 rounds last Saturday with Tula ammo and it ran well.

My reloads are another matter, they still wont plunk so I am starting to think this may be a factory ammo gun, asI do not feel confident in a DIY chamber ream.
 
Mike your handloads, they may be a little big right ahead of the web, especially if they were fired in a grock. I run mine thru a 9 mak Lee bulge buster. It's an extra step, but it works like a charm.
 
My PSA works fine with my reloads, but I seat the bullet a little shorter than I do for my pistols, as the leade/throat is a little tighter. Not a problem for me, as I have a special load for the carbine that works very well and is accurate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom