Harley-Davidson demographic death

RedneckFur said:
My thoughts on this. I technically fall into the "millennial" age group, even though I don't think I should. I'm 34.

Harley's cost too much for what you get. Import bikes are often cheaper, and require less maintenance. They run better, smoother, and are more efficient. Styling alone isn't enough to justify the cost. Harley is still trying to sell 1940's technology in a 21st century world. Their bikes stopped being competitive with import bikes in the early 1960's. Harley is all image, and nothing else. The majority of the company's profits aren't from selling bikes, but from selling T-shirts. That right there tells you all you need to know.

Disposable income. You have to face it, with the economy being what it is, the younger crowd doesn't have the disposable income that their parents did. They can't afford the same luxury goods. Before I'll drop the cost of a decent used car on a toy, they're going to have to make it something that seems worthwhile to me. I do want a motorcycle. But chances are, when I finally get to buy one, its going to be a Honda or Yamaha cruiser, and not an HD. I want the best value for my money, and Harley isn't it.

If Harley wants to still be making bikes 25 years from now, they need get over their sound, and look at building a better, more affordable bike.
Click to expand...

I'll be 33 next month. Completely agree with you on HD being an image and no substance, and it's an image we are not buying. Completely disagree with you on disposable income. The trend for younger folks is shifting away from cars and living in town and the city. If there were bikes that were NOT just crotch rockets and appealed to us, we'd buy them by the 1000s. Look at Japan and the Honda Ruckus. Now scale that up to having a bike you can actually take longer distances. Who makes one that costs less than $8,000 and is actually a nice ride and looks modern? Hint: no one.

However, I am of the opinion that there is 1 thing alone that decreases motorcycle sales: safety. Wake county is 1.1 million people now. Can any of you that live here think of an area, aside from maybe the very fringes, where you could live and work and feel safe riding a bike every day the weather allowed for it? I can't. That means it has to be a "toy" not something that can actually save you gas and be fun. As cars are made safer, bigger, and heavier, the penalty for bad drivers goes down as the likelihood that a biker dies in the accident goes up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NKD
Safety? You guys must not ride much, if at all. I feel safer on my bike than in my car. On the bike I can position myself so that I can see the traffic ahead. I can split lanes if traffic from behind isn't stopping when the interstate slows to a stop (I've had to do this a couple of times) I also have the advantage of being quicker and much more nimble than a car. I would much rather be on my bike in Charlotte traffic than my car.
 
Last edited:
JRHorne said:
Now scale that up to having a bike you can actually take longer distances. Who makes one that costs less than $8,000 and is actually a nice ride and looks modern? Hint: no one.
Click to expand...

You can buy a really nice used Honda ST1300 or Yamaha FJR1300 for less than $8k. Both will take you as far and as fast as you want to go and still do it in style and comfort with bulletproof reliability.
 
The Moco screwed Erik Buell. He designed the FXR frame which handled great, but didn't look Harley enough. Interestingly, the FXR frame stretched & beefed up has carried on as the chassis for the touring line since the '80's. He started doing some really cool stuff with Sportster engines. I loved the '96 S1 Lightning I demo'd. Sport bike handling & HD grunt. Never got to check out his newer stuff & shame they kicked him loose.

They never figured out how to market them to the right crowd & the typical Harley shop knows nothing about anything remotely sporty, even with that 1930's tech Sportster engine suspended in that incredible frame. Man, a 88" big-bore, done up right, would be righteous, although keeping the front down would be a challenge.

As far as the safety tip goes- get some training. I don't care how long you've ridden, if you don't take a class, you'll never know what you don't know. I've done the MSF Experienced Rider Course, as well as a grueling German Auto Club Motorcycle Safety course. I didn't learn anything new at the ERC, but more importantly, I unlearned some bad habits. The German course was nuts, very physical. Cornering drills making you scrub ALL of the chalk line across your rear tire, riding in circles inside 2 parking spots, locking the front at 45+ mph, you name it. 8 hour class & I was smoked, but I was a much better rider after.

You've got to ride with your head on a swivel & like everyone on the road is out to kill you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NKD
JRHorne said:
I'll be 33 next month. Completely agree with you on HD being an image and no substance, and it's an image we are not buying. Completely disagree with you on disposable income. The trend for younger folks is shifting away from cars and living in town and the city. If there were bikes that were NOT just crotch rockets and appealed to us, we'd buy them by the 1000s. Look at Japan and the Honda Ruckus. Now scale that up to having a bike you can actually take longer distances. Who makes one that costs less than $8,000 and is actually a nice ride and looks modern? Hint: no one.

However, I am of the opinion that there is 1 thing alone that decreases motorcycle sales: safety. Wake county is 1.1 million people now. Can any of you that live here think of an area, aside from maybe the very fringes, where you could live and work and feel safe riding a bike every day the weather allowed for it? I can't. That means it has to be a "toy" not something that can actually save you gas and be fun. As cars are made safer, bigger, and heavier, the penalty for bad drivers goes down as the likelihood that a biker dies in the accident goes up.
Click to expand...
I never worried about the cars more in Charlotte vs less congested areas because any car can kill you and all cars are trying to kill you. The reason I rarely commute is the gear. I'm usually out the door right on time with no safety margin so adding the gear up time was always a hassle and my bike doesn't have a cup holder so there was the coffee issue.

Re: bikes that are NOT crotch rockets how about the Honda CB300, 500 and 650F, the 650F is $8250MSRP and the others are much lower. The CB500X is $6500 and the CR250L rally is $5150. Kawasaki has the Versys 300X, the KLX and KLR all under $8,000. Suzuki has the SV650 line and the GW250 and TU250 well under $8K. KTM has a 390 Duke that I suspect would be less than $8K but they don't list the price on their website and as always if you have to ask. BMW has the G310R and G310GS between $4-6K. That's a whole load of different styles none of which are superports (crotch rockets) most of which are light and maneuverable making them easy in crowded places and I didn't even include the weird stuff like the Suzuki Van Van, Honda Grom or retro stuff like the various scramblers. The used market is vast and as previously noted it's a buyers market right now.
I kind of like the G310 and the 390 Duke, I hadn't seen either of those before looking at the OEMs to make this post (pretty sure they're the same bike just different styling).

KTM 390 Duke
pho_bike_90_re.png
 
fishgutzy said:
They had the chance to catch the younger demographic with Buell. But they put far to many restrictions on Erik.
Then an accountant killed it off entirely.
I lived my Buell XB12Ss. Sold it for two reasons. Degenerative osteoarthritis in my tail bone and I needed funds for my Jeep build.
My wife said I couldn't build my Jeep until she got a granite countertop.
emoji41.png
emoji6.png


Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I had a XB12Ss also. I sold it cause I knew if anything happened parts were gonna be a bitch to find for a decent price.

Besides that it was the funnest motorcycle I ever had.

I want a super duke but they are expensive both new and used. If I am going to drop that kind of coinage I will get a Ducati. If I could find one with decent mileage and price I would snatch up a RC51, TL1000 or a SV1000
 
An SV1000 with slip ons & a flash is a very fun ride. Quick revving fours are fun, but I just love the way a v-twin engine makes power & lays down the torque.
 
SPST said:
You can buy a really nice used Honda ST1300 or Yamaha FJR1300 for less than $8k. Both will take you as far and as fast as you want to go and still do it in style and comfort with bulletproof reliability.
Click to expand...
Yea but those are used.

@Slosolo2, I haven't shopped for a bike in probably... 8 years? I was not aware that there were that many offerings under $8,000 new. Which brings up another point: to whom are they marketing these bikes then???
 
Slosolo2 said:
I never worried about the cars more in Charlotte vs less congested areas because any car can kill you and all cars are trying to kill you. The reason I rarely commute is the gear. I'm usually out the door right on time with no safety margin so adding the gear up time was always a hassle and my bike doesn't have a cup holder so there was the coffee issue.

Re: bikes that are NOT crotch rockets how about the Honda CB300, 500 and 650F, the 650F is $8250MSRP and the others are much lower. The CB500X is $6500 and the CR250L rally is $5150. Kawasaki has the Versys 300X, the KLX and KLR all under $8,000. Suzuki has the SV650 line and the GW250 and TU250 well under $8K. KTM has a 390 Duke that I suspect would be less than $8K but they don't list the price on their website and as always if you have to ask. BMW has the G310R and G310GS between $4-6K. That's a whole load of different styles none of which are superports (crotch rockets) most of which are light and maneuverable making them easy in crowded places and I didn't even include the weird stuff like the Suzuki Van Van, Honda Grom or retro stuff like the various scramblers. The used market is vast and as previously noted it's a buyers market right now.
I kind of like the G310 and the 390 Duke, I hadn't seen either of those before looking at the OEMs to make this post (pretty sure they're the same bike just different styling).

KTM 390 Duke
pho_bike_90_re.png
Click to expand...

Also, damn you. I've been looking at bikes for 30 minutes now. I also didn't know the Vulcan had such a low MSRP. So clearly this further reiterates the fact that as Harley's customer base LITERALLY gets older and dies off, the other manufacturers of the world seem to be continuing to offer much more broad product lines at obtainable prices.

Siggghhhh, guess I am going to have to take a safety course and get my motorcycle permit.
 
JRHorne said:
Yea but those are used.

@Slosolo2, I haven't shopped for a bike in probably... 8 years? I was not aware that there were that many offerings under $8,000 new. Which brings up another point: to whom are they marketing these bikes then???
Click to expand...
Writing the post I was thinking there is a huge disconnect between the oems and the consumer.
 
Unless you have money to burn or just have to have a new bike one would be crazy not to look at used offerings. There are so many low mileage garage queens of all makes and models that it isn't even funny.
 
On safety:

Bikes are dangerous and not easily mastered.

That's precisely why the first words out of my mouth were "motorsickle". Nothing safe is all that fun. Why tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at the door of death?
 
Oh the used comment was in the context of all that was discussed with HD. HD selling used bikes doesn't help the company, even if it can help the dealers. I didn't mean the bikes being used was a deterrent for owners.

As soon as HD starts selling something that looks like this, I will start looking at buying an HD!

z650-metallic-matte-covert-green-and-metallic-flat-spark-black-studio (1).jpg
 
Last edited:
Where are you going to put all your stuff on that thing to take trip? That's just a hooligan bike!
 
JRHorne said:
Oh the used comment was in the context of all that was discussed with HD. HD selling used bikes doesn't help the company, even if it can help the dealers. I didn't mean the bikes being used was a deterrent for owners.

As soon as HD starts selling something that looks like this, I will start looking at buying an HD!

View attachment 39012
Click to expand...

I’ll tell yah, the z1000 is a nicely priced naked bike. Easy on the back, good mileage and still plenty to tickle your pickle when you grab a hand full of throttle

SPST said:
Where are you going to put all your stuff on that thing to take trip? That's just a hooligan bike!
Click to expand...

They make saddle bags for it
 
Last edited:
backwoodsshooter said:
I’ll tell yah, the z1000 is a nicely priced naked bike. Easy on the back, good mileage and still plenty to tickle your pickle when you grab a hand full of throttle



They make saddle bags for it
Click to expand...

Yeah, but even if you put non factory Givi bags on it you will be close to an extra $1k.
 
Ferrisfan said:
I haven’t ridden in almost 30 years, but if I bought a bike I would want a Ural with a sidecar and 2 wheel drive.
Click to expand...
A bud had one of those, I had to tinker with it frequently to keep it reliable, it was a hoot.
Friday said:
KTM is on the top of their game, and their bikes are expensive. They have a design philosophy unique to themselves and they build bikes that HD and the big 4 have declared as archaic..ie 2-strokes..which they can't build fast enough.
Click to expand...
An off road smoker can't be beat. I still have my 2000 YZ-250.
 
Last edited:
Yami FZ-09 starts around 9G. 900ish cc Triple.

Lots of interesting bikes now in this segment.
14_Yamaha_FZ-09_3.jpg
 
SPST said:
Where are you going to put all your stuff on that thing to take trip? That's just a hooligan bike!
Click to expand...

Get some cheap soft bags. 100$.

That and a tank bag and you could go wherever you want. I've strapped a small backpack to a Monster and toured for days.
 
Last edited:
I seriously hate all of you. Since this morning, I have read up on bikes, found Wake Tech's Basic Rider Course, looked at Team Powersports website in Raleigh, and gotten an insurance quote from Progressive for a Z650. FUUUUUUUUU


Which one of you is going to let me stay at your house with the new bike once my wife divorces me?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NKD
JRHorne said:
Oh the used comment was in the context of all that was discussed with HD. HD selling used bikes doesn't help the company, even if it can help the dealers. I didn't mean the bikes being used was a deterrent for owners.

As soon as HD starts selling something that looks like this, I will start looking at buying an HD!

View attachment 39012
Click to expand...
HD is so far ahead of you they already quit selling several better looking bikes than that.
JRHorne said:
I seriously hate all of you. Since this morning, I have read up on bikes, found Wake Tech's Basic Rider Course, looked at Team Powersports website in Raleigh, and gotten an insurance quote from Progressive for a Z650. FUUUUUUUUU


Which one of you is going to let me stay at your house with the new bike once my wife divorces me?
Click to expand...
She's not going to divorce you, she'll be even more attracted to you due to the increase in manliness and confidence resulting from riding. ;)
Seriously if you do get it I hope you have a lot of fun and pile the miles up on it.
 
NKD said:
Get some cheap soft bags. 100$.

That and a tank bag and you could go wherever you want. I've strapped a small backpack to a Monster and toured for days.
Click to expand...

No thanks. Can't lock them and they aren't waterproof.
 
Slosolo2 said:
HD is so far ahead of you they already quit selling several better looking bikes than that.

She's not going to divorce you, she'll be even more attracted to you due to the increase in manliness and confidence resulting from riding. ;)
Seriously if you do get it I hope you have a lot of fun and pile the miles up on it.
Click to expand...

HD's financial reports say otherwise. They're not even going to be ahead of their debt payments if they don't turn things around soon.

And you are correct, my wife will not divorce me. She will however make sure we have a large life insurance policy based on the way I drive. In terms of manliness, hard to beat what I drive now given I have to have a car with 4 doors. Ask @NKD, I believe he approves of my ride!
 
JRHorne said:
HD's financial reports say otherwise. They're not even going to be ahead of their debt payments if they don't turn things around soon.

And you are correct, my wife will not divorce me. She will however make sure we have a large life insurance policy based on the way I drive. In terms of manliness, hard to beat what I drive now given I have to have a car with 4 doors. Ask @NKD, I believe he approves of my ride!
Click to expand...

Indeed. I have to say it is a totally badass car!
 
SPST said:
Thats true. BTDT on plenty of sport bikes. I'll take removable hard bags and drive shaft now that I know better.
Click to expand...

Well hopefully someday we'll all know as much as you and go for 700lb barcaloungers.
 
NKD said:
On safety:

Bikes are dangerous and not easily mastered.

That's precisely why the first words out of my mouth were "motorsickle". Nothing safe is all that fun. Why tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at the door of death?
Click to expand...
My mom was an RN and only called the Murdercycles. Thought she was going to have a heart attack when I traded off a go cart for a dirt bike when I was about 12
 
Ok dammit, who is starting CarolinaMotorcyclesForum.com and when can I sign up as resident noob?
 
NKD said:
Well hopefully someday we'll all know as much as you and go for 700lb barcaloungers.
Click to expand...

Yep, old and wise. If you can only have 1 bike, I would highly recommend one with hard luggage. If you can afford more than 1, I'm all for having naked bikes to play hooligan on. But, I'm past carrying around a backpack along with my helmet and gear into a restaurant when I can just lock everything up in the bike. But, if you are just going to blast around for an hour or so a naked bike will carry everything you need. Have fun and ride whatever you like.
 
SPST said:
Yep, old and wise. If you can only have 1 bike, I would highly recommend one with hard luggage. If you can afford more than 1, I'm all for having naked bikes to play hooligan on. But, I'm past carrying around a backpack along with my helmet and gear into a restaurant when I can just lock everything up in the bike. But, if you are just going to blast around for an hour or so a naked bike will carry everything you need. Have fun and ride whatever you like.
Click to expand...
I like long YouTube videos because I mostly listen while I'm doing other things with my hands. So I found a NutnFancy video where he mentioned using those crappy gun locks you get with every pistol to lock his helmet to the bike. I think I'll try that soon.
 
SPST said:
Yep, old and wise. If you can only have 1 bike, I would highly recommend one with hard luggage. If you can afford more than 1, I'm all for having naked bikes to play hooligan on. But, I'm past carrying around a backpack along with my helmet and gear into a restaurant when I can just lock everything up in the bike. But, if you are just going to blast around for an hour or so a naked bike will carry everything you need. Have fun and ride whatever you like.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I am 49 and got my first (not mini) bike in 1976, and my first license and street bike in 1986.

I've toured all over on many different kind of bikes, including multiday multi-thousand mile trips on naked bikes. A backpack and a cargo net is very practical, actually.

Hard luggage is great. No doubt.
 
NKD said:
. Nothing safe is all that fun. Why tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at the door of death?
Click to expand...

I think I found a good signature phrase. Bravo sir!
 
Last edited:
OK.... First, I'm a fourth generation HD rider, going back to at least 1918, which I have photographs to prove. I also am a shareholder in the company, which I received as a gift many years ago (which I'm not dreaming to get rich off of).
So, I may have a different view of this than some... most, of you.

As the buffet of life has gotten bigger for me, I admittedly haven't rode near as much as I used to. I currently have a 04 1200XLC which has done everything I've ever expected it to do, and some stuff I probably should not have... It's been through 12 states, although it's not a "touring" mc (no windshield, floorboards, radio or heated grips), ran through the twisties at Deals gap a few times, out run many big twins and been laid down, which I will openly admit to inexperience at the time. My first date with my wife was on this bike, as well as our honeymoon. 5 straight days of rain on that trip, but sometimes you'll have that, if you ride much....

Point being, that bike works for me. I like the way it rides, the way it sounds and alot of people think it's a decent lookin' scoot. Will it ever be as comfy as a geezer glide or a gold wing? No. Will it out run a Busa in the quarter? No. Can I drag knees in the twisties like a gixxer? No. That's ok to me, cause that's not what this bike was designed to do!

As far as the direction the MoCo is going, meh, I just chalk it up to trends in the industry. It happens, ya know? In every industry. Just because it appears the ship is sinking doesn't take away from the many years of success. I promise you Willie G isn't nervous. Personally, I don't care for many of the newer model bikes myself. I would love to see a line of old school hard tail, carbed bikes with kickers, but that's just more my style.

Honestly I can't figured out how in the world the MoCo is in the shape they are in. I mean it's so easy to figure out, there's a dozen guys on a gun forum in NC who are experts at MC marketing and business development and already have it figured out. I just wonder how many have ever owned or even been behind the bars on one.......

Oh, @SPST , come up with some new material, man. You use that same joke in almost every thread that has the word motorcycle in it. I'm really wondering if someone riding an HD got the best of you some time. Your hate is obvious and we are all well aware.

Ride safe guys!
 
Last edited:
LizardKing said:
Oh, @SPST , come up with some new material, man. You use that same joke in almost every thread that has the word motorcycle in it. I'm really wondering if someone riding an HD got the best of you some time. Your hate is obvious and we are all well aware.

Ride safe guys!
Click to expand...

It's the only Harley joke that I know. You have to admit it's a good one though. I don't hate Harley's. I rib my buddies that ride them and they give me hell for riding a rice burner. And nobody on a Harley, or anything else, got the best me because I don't race anybody on public streets. Although I'm sure there are plenty out there that could get the best of me. Don't be so sensitive about your beloved Harley's. It's just like the Ford vs Chevy thing. It's no big deal.
 
Heck I just bought a brand new Suzuki GSXS750 left over from last year for $5700 out the door tax tag title and 3 year 0%apr . Hell of a lot better than 8k. I can thank Suzuki of Sanford for that.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom