LPVO options

Discussion in 'Optics Talk' started by Climberman, Sep 10, 2019.

?

Which LVPO

  1. Steiner

    12 vote(s)
    52.2%
  2. Trijicon

    6 vote(s)
    26.1%
  3. Vortex

    5 vote(s)
    21.7%
  1. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    Some Burris are low-cost (i.e., "cheap"); some are not. No different than any other optic line. As pointed out there is a difference between a $200 Vortex and the Razor. There is a difference between the Leupold MkIV at $1,200 and the Mk6 at $2,000. The Burris RT6, the XTRII/III are 'as good' as any other optic.

    The other LVPO that is getting more love is the SWFA 1-6. Not cheap but also 'as good' as any other in that pricepoint.

    What you are looking for in 'durability' is normal use/normal wear and tear based on your use. I wouldn't call that hard use.
     
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  2. Apex Defense Group

    Apex Defense Group Active Member Sponsor

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    SWFA is not a bad choice at all. Their fixed 10x has had a long standing reputation of being just about as reliable and indestructible as you could ask for. I think their other optics will fall in line with that reputation soon.
     
  3. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    SWFA is front focal plane, no?
     
  4. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    Yes. It is the "HD" version which has significantly better glass quality/clarity than their non-HD line (which are still great). They are about as indestructible as an optic can get.
     
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  5. Climberman

    Climberman Unstealthiest Ninja

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    You have looked through my swfa 1-4x hd. It’s ffp.

    The 1-4hd has been discontinued but they still make the 1-6xhd.
     
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  6. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    Yes, I like that scope. FOV seems tight though. I wonder if that is a result of FFP?

    I really have no idea. Wish I knew more about the science behind the optics and exit pupil and whatnot. I'm learning but only really know what I like.

    I have to admit I like SFP for 1-6 or lower. I just find I am on 1X most of the time and don't use a lot of mid power, and 6X with a easy reticle is good out to what I feel are about the limits of what I would ever need (500+), and looking at the original requirements of this post. The concept of scaled reticle at any power, and can see it being very useful for certain applications. I have just found I have no use for it, and usually don't care for the busy reticles that often accompany them. I just like easy and uncluttered. Thinking too much just hurts me in matches, lol.

    That said, have seen shooters way better than me using 1-4 & 1-6 FFP scopes, and with great success!
     
  7. Stobie

    Stobie Stobie-Wan Kenobi Benefactor Supporting Member

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    Good thread for me, since I've been over-analyzing a LPVO purchase decision for months.

    Do any of you guys have any experience or hearsay regarding the Eotech Vudu Series? I'm thinking about the 1-6x with the SR2 reticle for a .308 bolt gun I'm setting up as a "Practical Rifle". What few user reviews I can find are positive.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  8. chrishf12

    chrishf12 Carolina Wanderer

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    Ok, my XTR II should be here today.

    Someone help me out, I need to know what to look for to compare a higher quality glass to budget glass. Is the difference readily apparent?
    I have never had a scope over $500 and would like the 101 on the differences to look for.
     
  9. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    Glass quality and clarity, tactile responsiveness of the turrets, ability to maintain zero regardless of environment, QA/QC, responsiveness of manufacturer....

    To me you can get some decent optics in the $300-500 range, $600-$900 tend to run together with similar options and quality, and over a grand is where you really get high quality.

    Yes, the difference is readily apparent.
     
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  10. Climberman

    Climberman Unstealthiest Ninja

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    As @Chuckman said.

    Clarity of the glass is #1. Images should be sharper and more easy to see clearly.

    The turrets of more expensive glass will have a defined click feel and will more closely pass a box test. 10 clicks up, 10 clicks right, 10 clicks down, 10 clicks left should put you back where you started. Also, the mechanics of cheaper glass will not stand up as well to continuous turret turning like a more expensive unit will. The gears will grind down faster.
     
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  11. 11B CIB

    11B CIB IG: HandloadsAndHoldovers Staff Member Charter Life Member

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    I should have a US Optics TS-8X arriving soon to do a review on it. FFP, illuminated reticles, 17.9oz $775. SFP model is $650

    Their TS-6X is also a solid price point. FFP, 17.9oz, illuminated, several reticle choices for $660. The SFP version is $560

    I reviewed a Steiner PX4i a while back

    I really liked it
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Not the best picture of the P3TR reticle but the dot has daylight bright settings as well as low light & NVG functionality. 1 click is 1/2 MOA @100 (common for non-precision type scopes). The center dot is ideal for a 50/200yd zero so the 4 BDC hash marks correspond to 300, 400, 500, and 600yds with 55gr M193
    [​IMG]


    I also did a box test, meaning I fired center mass of my target, then fired five more rounds, dialing the appropriate clicks to get 10 inches (40 clicks) corner to corner, firing one round on each corner of the box and then RTZ with my sixth shot. Worked like a charm. The clicks aren’t QUITE as solid as I’d like but not terrible. Since they are covered by caps rather than exposed tactical turrets, they don’t HAVE to be super stiff I guess
     
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  12. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    I really like USO. That they are in NC is a bonus. A much under-appreciate scope.
     
  13. Climberman

    Climberman Unstealthiest Ninja

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    For what it's worth, I don't think a box test is a huge deal on a scope that you don't plan to constantly dial corrections on. It's a bigger issue for a 3-15x for example where you area dialing corrections for windage/drop.
     
  14. 11B CIB

    11B CIB IG: HandloadsAndHoldovers Staff Member Charter Life Member

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    I’ll be throwing the 1-8x TS-8x on my Rainier Ultramatch rifle and going to town on it.

    It’s just a test to see if the clicks are precise and if it offers repeatability. Dialing the scope may come into play if someone is using say hunting ammo that varies from what ammo the BDC normally corresponds with. I didn’t dial any more after that but it’s nice to know the scope is mechanically sound and repeatable should you need to use the turrets
     
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  15. chrishf12

    chrishf12 Carolina Wanderer

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    Keep us posted on the TS-8x!
     
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  16. Climberman

    Climberman Unstealthiest Ninja

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    I am not knocking you for doing it and agree with you. Nice glass is nice glass and it's good to have better gear. I just added that for info for others reading the thread. Kinda like how I don't make adjustments to my hunting scope unless it's off.
     
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  17. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    It's on sale $349 on Midway right now. Almost all their Burris optics are on sale. It's a great time to be an American buying German glass lol
     
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  18. Climberman

    Climberman Unstealthiest Ninja

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    So my burris arrived a day early. I need to get this thing mounted and dialed in.
     
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  19. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    Few other things to look for:
    -Lack of fisheye effect at low power
    -The clarity of the glass all the way from edge to the edge, on either power extreme.
    -Accurate color
     
  20. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    Accurate color? Most optics are just black to me.

    I kid....I understand what you mean....
     
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  21. 11B CIB

    11B CIB IG: HandloadsAndHoldovers Staff Member Charter Life Member

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    This is why I gave the Mercon Mk1 a horrible review. From 3-6x it was beautiful, like a Razor HD II 1-6, but from 1-2+ish, it was TERRIBLE, like looking through thick aquarium glass. You couldn’t use it on 1x as a red dot without your head swimming. Also at night, the illumination (even on a low setting) would flare out of the optical lens and light up your face etc. They originally sold for $999, and now they’re maybe less than half that, but a Strike Eagle is the better purchase IMO. The only good thing was the Bobro mount that came with it initially
     
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  22. Fred

    Fred Member

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    I have just had the opportunity to compare my Burris XTR II 1-8 with a Trijicon Accupower 1-8 and a Vortex Strike Eagle. On 1x the Trijicon had more of a fish eye affect, the Burris had more edge distortion. I think I prefer the Burris. On 8x, they seemed to have similar quality glass.

    The Strike Eagle was less clear but had noticeably less distortion on 1x, to the point where I wondered if the XTR I had just received was fake, until I compared to the Trijicon and found it was similar to the XTR. Which is disappointing considering how much I spent. The 8x isn't worth it if it puts the 1x below a scope that costs a third as much. I use 1x far more than maximum magnification.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  23. chrishf12

    chrishf12 Carolina Wanderer

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    I had similar observations with the XTR II that I received. I have a Strike Eagle 1-6x and a Primary Arms 1-8x to compare it to.
    I was only able to compare on 1x indoors. I was surprised that the XTR had only slightly less edge distortion than both the SE and PA. I was expecting much more of a difference.

    I did initiate a replacement return on the XTR II, the elevation turret was binding when trying to adjust it slowly. Hopefully when I receive the replacement my mount will be in to do some outdoor testing.
     
  24. Fred

    Fred Member

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    My elevation knob on the XTR II is very, very, sticky. Is that normal, or could it be the binding you speak of? If it's normal, I was expecting better on an expensive scope.
     
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  25. chrishf12

    chrishf12 Carolina Wanderer

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    Mine was bad enough that when it stuck in a position I would have to rock it back and forth until it unstuck from that notch. I did not remove the turret to see what may be causing it. At one point I felt the set screws slide while trying to get it unstuck. My buddy also purchased one and did not have the turret issue. If the replacement is not an improvement I will return for a refund.

    With so many reviews saying this was on par with the Accupower line I had high hopes. I will keep you posted on the replacement.
     
  26. 88Mustang

    88Mustang Every day above ground... Charter Member Benefactor Supporting Member

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    How does Accu-Power compare to Accu-point?

    I bought a TR24G (1-4x24)several years ago. Several months ago I got a TR25G (1-6x24). several weeks ago got a Stiener (1-4x24). When comparing them I saw slight edge distortion on the TA24g that I had not noticed until after looking at the TR25G and the Steiner. As far as I can tell the edges of both the TR25G and the Steiner are completely clear. All three look crystal clear thru all magnifications. All three also do not exhibit fisheye at any magnification.

    I mounted my new PA 1-8 Friday afternoon, and on 7x-8x fisheye was abundant, to the extent that I will probably only use 6x and lower.
     
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  27. Pbj ak

    Pbj ak B Supporting Member

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    The pa 1-8 you mentioned, is it the platinum version?
     
  28. 88Mustang

    88Mustang Every day above ground... Charter Member Benefactor Supporting Member

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    Nope, the $389 version
     
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  29. chrishf12

    chrishf12 Carolina Wanderer

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    So there is a lot of good information in this thread and this seems like a good place to ask this question. Is there any advantage to running an RMR in addition to a lpvo? Specifically in a 45* offset. Thinking about trying one but don't want to waste the money if it is just this year's gimmick.
     
  30. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    For competition? You're starting to see them crop up more often. For defense gun, it can provide the bridge from arm's length to 100 yards.

    Uncle Sugar has been providing them on recce/SPR rifles as an option.
     
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  31. chrishf12

    chrishf12 Carolina Wanderer

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    @Chuckman just general use. I get that is saves a few seconds of turning a magnification ring.

    My issue is you already live on 1x or the highest magnification of the scope. Very rarely are you between these two magnifications. So if you are staying on 1x what is the benefit?
    Are people running on 4x, 6x, or 8x exclusively, then transitioning to the RMR for anything closer than 300?
     
  32. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    ACOG is 4x, people use it just fine. Some people will run it on bigger caliber ARs like 224/6.5, etc, with long range optics so I can make closer shots, but in the military world they will use them on recce/SPR rifles, too.
     
  33. chrishf12

    chrishf12 Carolina Wanderer

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    Now that use case makes complete sense to me.
     
  34. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    You really only see them in competition use in certain instances. Like open division 3 gun. Where you are allowed as many optics as you want. Also certain matches like USPSA people can run multiple optics.
    It is for a stage where you have long targets and near targets and want to save the 1 second for the switch in power, as you surmised.

    However, most people shoot practical division in 3gun.
    So they can only have one optic. Good shooters are just as fast with a LPVO on 1x as they are with red dots.
    In USPSA competition, PCC’s will use an offset dot specifically for hard left hand leans.

    For my use, I don’t use an offset dot. I shoot several different style matches with my LPVO. And indeed 90%+ of the time it is on 1x.

    This is why a scope with a better image on 1X is critical. And it’s why the Steiner, Razor, etc. are so popular. It’s a huge, clear, bright image and the bezel of scope almost disappears. And, it has generous relief for head position. So both eyes open is easy. If it is wonky and fisheye and 1.25x it can be more difficult.

    Just my opinions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
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  35. JimP42

    JimP42 Mostly harmless Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    It is mostly a competition thing with an LVPO. Not worth it for me even with (cheaper) irons. It might be for you if you are very good and need another little edge. It can certainly work for some shooters. Jerry Miculek wouldn't do it if it didn't help him.

    I have 2 use cases for offset sights myself:
    1) 2 gun rimfire - I shoot the same M&P15-22 with an Aimpoint dot in open, and 45 deg irons in limited. Yes, I have 2 1x sights on the same gun. So sue me. It actually works very well and I have been doing this for about a year with practice and monthly matches.
    2) medium range rifles. If you have an AR with a 3-15 or 4-16 say, and you think you might need to use it someday (instead of your LPVO rifle - you can't carry both). What happens if you get caught up in something close range? Why would I want to use a pistol if I have a rifle in my hands already? So I have offset irons on my long (for AR) range 223 and 6.5 Grendel rifles. Just in case. Since I use the offsets on the 2gun 22, I am comfortable with them if the need arises. Yes, I know the odds of needing them are miniscule. This is more recent, just a couple of months.

    Maybe I'm weird, because I don't recall seeing either of these talked about before, but they make sense to me.
     
  36. Pbj ak

    Pbj ak B Supporting Member

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    I’ve been waiting to find a deal on a set of the Magpul offset sights for deer season this year. I shoot a couple times a week and use either a red dot or a magnified optic 1-6 / 2-10. Mostly shooting for fun but have had two occasions in the past year where my glass fogged up and I didn’t get to take a shot hunting. Both of these I felt pretty confident I could have made the shot with irons. I haven’t used offset sights before but like jimp said earlier I figure with a little practice they would work out nicely.
     
  37. MikeDawg46L

    MikeDawg46L Pimpin' ain't easy

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    I hope you find better results with the new USO than I had with the 1-8x model I bought several years back (can’t remember the model number but it wasn’t cheap). It functioned fine on my Noveske but the image was dark and the color scale was way too cool. The reticle got lost on a dark background but it did have the 2FP red dot which was neat. I sold it and bought a Leupold 1-6x Mk6 and liked it much better.
     
  38. Variable

    Variable Active Member Life Member

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    So based on posts so far the Steiner seems like the best quality to dollar ratio?
     
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  39. Crazy Carl

    Crazy Carl seriously? Life Member

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    Their glass is amazing & the reticle is very intuitive & uncluttered. Don't regret buying the Steiner at all.
     
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  40. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    Steiner is just such a hard deal to beat, all things considered. It’s hard to imagine someone being unsatisfied with it.
    But there a lot of other good choices.