mass market 1911s, are spares readily available and drop-in?

[Jayne]

In my quest for a slim 45, I ruled out a 1911 because all the ones I've seen in history can't be repaired without a gunsmith. Mine has broken 3 times (slide stops and safeties) and each time it wasn't just a 'parts swap', something had to be hand fit and made to work. I don't want another science project, I want something that takes no skill to repair like a glock.

Do the more mass market 1911s from Ruger, Sig, etc have drop-in replacement parts available?

Same with sights, I wanted to modernize the irons on my 1911 and was laughed at, you don't just pop parts in you have someone custom craft some artisanal trijicons.

 

[mostly22lately]

Very interested in this exact topic.

 

[GymB]

IDK, but I do have some fitted spares for specific guns. I think aftermarket parts are tough because every maker has their own tweaks and tolerances.

 

[B00ger]

I cant really comment much on the "drop in part" portion, but I did have an odd experience with a Ruger SR1911. After a few range trips the front site just sheered off and vanished. I sent it in to Ruger and they replaced it...a few weeks later the replacement sheered off. Again, back to Ruger for another fix. Turns out it was a common problem. However, Ruger was pretty awesome as far as customer service and took care of me with few questions. So...while you >could< take issues to a gunsmith, most of the makers are pretty good at fixing things in house.

 

[Charlie]

I cant really comment much on the "drop in part" portion, but I did have an odd experience with a Ruger SR1911. After a few range trips the front site just sheered off and vanished. I sent it in to Ruger and they replaced it...a few weeks later the replacement sheered off. Again, back to Ruger for another fix. Turns out it was a common problem. However, Ruger was pretty awesome as far as customer service and took care of me with few questions. So...while you >could< take issues to a gunsmith, most of the makers are pretty good at fixing things in house.

My Ruger Commander-size 1911 is on its third front sight. They sent me new sights that I installed. I have a sight puller now but did not then. A hammer and a brass punch worked well.

 

[ronn47]

@fieldgrade
What's you take on this?
I know you've rebuilt several 1911s.
Are there true "drop-in" parts?

 

[fieldgrade]

@fieldgrade
What's you take on this?
I know you've rebuilt several 1911s.
Are there true "drop-in" parts?

Not in my experience. But I always bought upgraded aftermarket parts that weren’t “original equipment” to the guns.

 

[Snoopz]

Guess I'm lucky. Really never any problems even from the Crown City Arms, Vegas, AMT's other than working on the feed ramp, and a spring change. Even ones built on 80% frames, and no I'm no gunsmith. Prints, specs, good tools.

Drop in .. hmm thats debatable


-Snoopz

 

[92G]

For an easy-to-service single stack 45 auto pistol, my choice would be an Sig P220. My circa 2014 P220 has been utterly reliable and a pleasure to shoot. If condition 1 is preference then the SAO models are an option. I’m no sig fan but the P220 and it’s magazines are quite nice.

I’m not convinced any internal extractor 1911 would be plug-and-play w parts replacement. They’ll always need some hand fitting and exhibit propensity for finicky behavior. A P220 not so much. other weird options would be a Ruger P345 or S&W 4506, but parts arent really available for those.

—

when I was stuck in MA (10 rd mag limit), the P220 got carried a fair bit. Always felt well armed with it! Now why I bought the fugly 2 tone model I’ll never understand. A black nitron slide looks better.

 

[rufrdr]

I've never had anything break on a 1911. The front sight came loose on a used Colt M 1991 once and I used a staking tool to tighten it up. I forgot about a finger type bushing that cracked on a used series 80. I bought a used factory Colt solid bushing on Ebay and it dropped right into my Colt, no fitting

 

[fieldgrade]

I find that after 4-5,000 rounds on mass produced production 1911’s you find out how well they’ll survive, beyond routine mag spring and recoil spring changes.

 

[wemoodydc]

Are the entry level manufacturers hand fitting every 1911 that comes out? That seems like a lot of cost to add to mass produced offering. Makes more sense to me that they would engineer them so that a pistol can be assembled from any combination of parts bins.

 

[GymB]

Are the entry level manufacturers hand fitting every 1911 that comes out? That seems like a lot of cost to add to mass produced offering. Makes more sense to me that they would engineer them so that a pistol can be assembled from any combination of parts bins.

I’ve always thought that the tolerances on the originals were loose enough that parts could be pretty interchangeable. Perhaps not perfect, but good enough.
Then custom builders and gunsmiths started tightening them up and tweaking, and 3rd parties started making improved parts, now nothing was interchangeable.
Today the manufacturing tolerances are orders of magnitude better than they were even 50 years ago, and I expect that most any OEM replacement part will drop in, especially if purchased at about the same time as the pistol. Obviously I haven’t tested this, and I’m sure that some things like extractor tensioning might still need a little work, but generally I think it’ll all fit.

For an easy-to-service single stack 45 auto pistol, my choice would be an Sig P220. My circa 2014 P220 has been utterly reliable and a pleasure to shoot. If condition 1 is preference then the SAO models are an option. I’m no sig fan but the P220 and it’s magazines are quite nice.

I’m not convinced any internal extractor 1911 would be plug-and-play w parts replacement. They’ll always need some hand fitting and exhibit propensity for finicky behavior. A P220 not so much. other weird options would be a Ruger P345 or S&W 4506, but parts arent really available for those.

—

when I was stuck in MA (10 rd mag limit), the P220 got carried a fair bit. Always felt well armed with it! Now why I bought the fugly 2 tone model I’ll never understand. A black nitron slide looks better.

View attachment 728127

I would love to like the P220, but I own one with a police DAO trigger and I can throw it more accurately than I can shoot it. Were I to ever be in a bad situation I’d give it to the bad guy to create time for me to run away while his shots are going all over the place and his finger is cramping. I have some of the parts to convert to an SRT trigger, a project I need to finish. FWIW, this is a gun that I bought a new barrel for just because I didn’t believe that I was shooting it as poorly as I was, and stupid me, I didn’t even buy a threaded barrel.

 

[92G]

I would love to like the P220, but I own one with a police DAO trigger and I can throw it more accurately than I can shoot it. Were I to ever be in a bad situation I’d give it to the bad guy to create time for me to run away while his shots are going all over the place and his finger is cramping. I have some of the parts to convert to an SRT trigger, a project I need to finish. FWIW, this is a gun that I bought a new barrel for just because I didn’t believe that I was shooting it as poorly as I was, and stupid me, I didn’t even buy a threaded barrel.

Your description sounds like a DAK (double action Kellerman) P220. Agree those are awful particularly the double reset points resulting in 2 different weight trigger pulls. I have never converted from DAK back to TDA, but if it’s possible that’s the only way to save it!

 

[GymB]

Your description sounds like a DAK (double action Kellerman) P220. Agree those are awful particularly the double reset points resulting in 2 different weight trigger pulls. I have never converted from DAK back to TDA, but if it’s possible that’s the only way to save it!

Nope, DAO, not DAK. Every pull is pure misery. What is TDA?

 

[gc70]

Nope, DAO, not DAK. Every pull is pure misery. What is TDA?

TDA = traditional double-action

And my heart goes out to you for having a fine pistol ruined by such an abomination of a trigger.

 

[georgel]

It's kinda like how AR's have evolved as well. Used to be, if it was "mil-spec", it dropped in. But, tolerances were somewhat loose and as more "custom" makers got involved, tolerances got tighter and parts became less "drop-in". But, guns got better.
Arguably, a gun that accepts "drop-in" parts might not meet your level of acceptable quality or accuracy. It might be a rough rattling collection of parts with questionable reliability.
I remember the mantra,

"You can have accuracy or you can have reliabily. You can't have both."

 Modern technology has reduced that gap considerably.

 

[Sleazy P. Martini]

Are the entry level manufacturers hand fitting every 1911 that comes out? That seems like a lot of cost to add to mass produced offering. Makes more sense to me that they would engineer them so that a pistol can be assembled from any combination of parts bins.

Labor is cheap in Turkey and the Phillipines, I imagine.

 

[mostly22lately]

This is a chart of the exchange rate from the US dollar to the Turkish lira, over roughly the past year.
On 1/26/23 for example, the lira was worth a nickle, and now it trades for about half that.
For reference, historically it was about 15 to 20 cents.

Now you know why there are perfectly reasonable quality Turkish made 1911 pistols for around $325.
In fact, from a purely economic perspective, I am surprised they are even that expensive.

I do not have nor have ever had a 1911, so, I am trying to figure out how badly I want one.
Don't know what I am missing.
Seems like there's a lot of 'legacy' in these and maybe I should sit this idea out.

 

[keepcalmandcarryon]

Labor is cheap in Turkey and the Phillipines, I imagine.

Labor is cheap but talent is not. The brilliance of the design is many parts do several jobs. The downside of that is you need to understand the relationship between the parts.

 

[Snoopz]

I do not have nor have ever had a 1911, so, I am trying to figure out how badly I want one.
Don't know what I am missing.
Seems like there's a lot of 'legacy' in these and maybe I should sit this idea out.

Own several, built several from 80% frames, parts, etc. From plain Jane 'beaters", to custom. Shot Bullseye, and bowling pins, etc.

Guess you could say preference.
Personally don't like Glocks, feels like I'm shooting into the dirt / ground. But then again practice, practice may fix that.

Shoot one, different ones, in all kinds of events. Legacy..if i read it correctly cause it's old and been replaced. Has been around for so long. If I don't own any still would want one, and be one in the collection, shooting some before I bought one, that's what happened decades ago. You don't need a $3,000 one, $300 or $400 would do fine starting. You won't get the accuracy of the high dollar one, but.

The "beaters" as I call some of mine, when you shake the gun they rattle cause of the lose fit, the customs none or very little.
As someone mentioned you can have accuracy but not reliability.

Once again it's preference, hands on shooting.
There's pros and cons to everything, just like reviews. Haters n likers..
Just my 2 bits (adjusted for Bidenomics)

-Rock

 

[georgel]

Own several, built several from 80% frames, parts, etc. From plain Jane, to custom. Shot Bullseye, and bowling pins, etc.

Guess you could say preference.
Personally don't like Glocks, feels like I'm shooting into the dirt / ground. But then again practice, practice may fix that.

Shoot one, in all kinds of events. Legacy..if i read it correctly cause it's old and been replaced. Has been around for so long. If I don't own any still would want one, and be one in the collection, shooting some before I bought one, that's what happened decades ago. You don't need a $3,000 one, $300 or $400 would do fine starting. You won't get the accuracy of the high dollar one, but.

Once again it's preference, hands on shooting.
There's pros and cons to everything, just like reviews.

-Rock

I used to be a 1911 fan boy, Gunsite, Weaver and all that. I guess, in many ways, I still am, actually. My transition occurred while attending some training classes. We were presented with problems that were more easily solved with less reloads, therefore higher capacity. On one class we were using airsoft for FoF and I was using a Glock replica. Afterwards I thought, "Hmm... I could get used to this." Yes, I came to Glocks because of airsoft.
I also found I was tending to shoot low with my 1911's under stress and was switching to arched mainspring housings. It has to do with your stance. More upright shooters do better with 1911 grip angles. More aggressive forward posture shooters do better with Glock grip angles. At the range target shooting I was fine with 1911's. Under stress I was tending to lean forward and push into the gun causing the muzzle to go down. The Glock grip angle accommodates this. Now, I think I can shoot either.

 

[Snoopz]

I used to be a 1911 fan boy, Gunsite, Weaver and all that. I guess, in many ways, I still am, actually. My transition occurred while attending some training classes. We were presented with problems that were more easily solved with less reloads, therefore higher capacity. On one class we were using airsoft for FoF and I was using a Glock replica. Afterwards I thought, "Hmm... I could get used to this." Yes, I came to Glocks because of airsoft.
I also found I was tending to shoot low with my 1911's under stress and was switching to arched mainspring housings. It has to do with your stance. More upright shooters do better with 1911 grip angles. More aggressive forward posture shooters do better with Glock grip angles. At the range target shooting I was fine with 1911's. Under stress I was tending to lean forward and push into the gun causing the muzzle to go down. The Glock grip angle accommodates this. Now, I think I can shoot either.

You are correct, stance, posture have a great deal to do with it. Grip also grip amgle. I observed a friend of mine, (likes his Glocks). Bring his Glock.up on target, then let him do it with various 1911's, Gold Cups, Bomar Sights, Smith N frame rear sights. RIA BBR 3.10, His approach was the same as the Glock, so in reality his stance, posture, grip was almost the same, this even carried over to a Ruger Single action revolver. More like a "one size fits all approach "
In some cases he caught himself compensating for the differences, more or less didn't feel natural.

I get it mag capacity and all of that. With the way the threats are nowadays, multiple bad guys, groups of them, their spread out, coming at you from different directions,, body armor, etc.
So the number of rounds, before a mag reload is very important. Then you have weight, a bar of lead or a bar of aluminum. A 45 with 14-16 rounds has some weight to it. Vs. Poly gun with 20rds. Shooting the Para Warthog with 14 rds is some weight, vs a Hellcat 15-20rds, Sig 365 15-20rds, XD 20rds.Most people who have held the BBR 3.10 45, their first comment it's heavy (empty) and where do I put my remaining fingers, loaded with ball ammo, its too heavy. I tend to over compensate cause of the weight and sometimes the size ( have big hands ) with the Hellcat, 365, XD, but oddly not that much with the HK USP's

I'm no instructor by no means, waa a NRA pistol instructor but that was some years ago, and don't know it all. As far as Glocks I guess I could get used to them have a Gen 1 ( when they first were available), but would have to change a lot of things. Instinct.. but what ever feels comfortable and you do well with, at the end of the day that's all that matters.

-Snoopz

 

[Catfish]

I ruled out a 1911 because all the ones I've seen in history can't be repaired without a gunsmith.

Where do you draw the line between "I'll give that a try" and "Call the man"?

Have you considered buying a spare? I doubt very much that cheap 1911s are being hand fitted, so an exact duplicate should be a bunch of drop-in parts.

 

[mostly22lately]

Legacy..if i read it correctly cause it's old and been replaced. Has been around for so long. If I don't own any still would want one, and be one in the collection, shooting some before I bought one, that's what happened decades ago.

I mean that 'new' 1911 production has to take into account 'legacy' design and that can be both good and bad.

For example, a Bell System telephone from 1985 had to be compatible with a 1915 telephone from a working perspective and this limited what the 1985 phone could be made to do. On the other hand, it all worked, perfectly, by design.

You don't need a $3,000 one, $300 or $400 would do fine starting. You won't get the accuracy of the high dollar one, but.

Ah, this is where my context is key.

I have multiple, target grade 22lr pistols, with a variety of grip angles, grips, sights, barrel lengths, you name it. Several of these are well over $1200.
I also have a nicer slightly-customized 9mm target pistol.

I would expect that an 1911 which I might get would perform in this same genre. That may, or may not rule out a $350 Tisas.
From a rest, I will expect competitive size groups at 50 yards.

Not really into plinking too much; also, the 1911 would not be used as defensive gear. I have other platforms for that.

Because I'm thinking the minimum cost of entry here is a $1800 Dan Wesson, to say nothing of the cost of adding a new caliber here (I have no 45ACP now), this decision isn't a casual one.

And, if I choose not to decide, that is still a choice.

Listening to guys who have DECADES of experience is a very good way to either save a lot of money ... or to spend a lot. I appreciate all of you.

 

[Jayne]

Where do you draw the line between "I'll give that a try" and "Call the man"?

Have you considered buying a spare? I doubt very much that cheap 1911s are being hand fitted, so an exact duplicate should be a bunch of drop-in parts.

When I have to break out a file or other tool to make a part fit. I'm not a craftsman or gunsmith, I just want to replace a part and get on with life.

This thread is basically proving what I already believed, that even modern 1911s are old school custom and not something I want to get into again.

When it comes to the cult....

 

[CZfool68]

I mean that 'new' 1911 production has to take into account 'legacy' design and that can be both good and bad.

For example, a Bell System telephone from 1985 had to be compatible with a 1915 telephone from a working perspective and this limited what the 1985 phone could be made to do. On the other hand, it all worked, perfectly, by design.

Ah, this is where my context is key.

I have multiple, target grade 22lr pistols, with a variety of grip angles, grips, sights, barrel lengths, you name it. Several of these are well over $1200.
I also have a nicer slightly-customized 9mm target pistol.

I would expect that an 1911 which I might get would perform in this same genre. That may, or may not rule out a $350 Tisas.
From a rest, I will expect competitive size groups at 50 yards.

Not really into plinking too much; also, the 1911 would not be used as defensive gear. I have other platforms for that.

Because I'm thinking the minimum cost of entry here is a $1800 Dan Wesson, to say nothing of the cost of adding a new caliber here (I have no 45ACP now), this decision isn't a casual one.

And, if I choose not to decide, that is still a choice.

Listening to guys who have DECADES of experience is a very good way to either save a lot of money ... or to spend a lot. I appreciate all of you.

When the weather warms up a bit I’d be glad to take you to DPRC and let you shoot my 2 1911’s in 45. One is 5” and the other is a CCO. Both steel frames. I have 2 main gun theories. #1 everyone should shoot whatever the hell they want. #2, everyone should own a 1911 in 45ACP. If you don’t you are a heathen. 😆

 

[Slimer]

 

[keepcalmandcarryon]

When the weather warms up a bit I’d be glad to take you to DPRC and let you shoot my 2 1911’s in 45. One is 5” and the other is a CCO. Both steel frames. I have 2 main gun theories. #1 everyone should shoot whatever the hell they want. #2, everyone should own a 1911 in 45ACP. If you don’t you are a heathen. 😆

@Jayne and I were out shooting Sunday and agree my vintage Commander is not what it is all cracked up to be. The 1911 is ready to be put on the curious relic shelf along side the Webleys and Steyr-Hann.

 

[Jayne]

Be interesting if/when they offer those with optics options from the factory. The human sized ones, not the meme guns.

 

[mostly22lately]

#2, everyone should own a 1911 in 45ACP. If you don’t you are a heathen. 😆

I'll look forward to that. Late March, at this rate.

The 'heathen' concept is a real thing.

The bullseye guy I shoot with sometimes, mostly at DCWC, said if I don't get a 1911 I should turn in my citizenship card.
I admit to being very curious about why that Browning design of pistol is different than others.

Then, I find out I can shoot in different matches, but only at some of them without a blade-rear sight.
If the 1911 I get has Novaks, or <gasp, heresy> Dawsons, I can't shoot in the something-or-other class.

I won't even start on the requirement to have my own secret formula for the hand-loads I'll need to match my gun.

 

[Snoopz]

N310 works rather well in 45 acp with either Nosler 185gr JHP or the Zero 185gr JHP
Some use 231, H&G 68 style bullets 200gr LSWC
Some use 185gr LSWC. There are plenty of options powder wise. The 185JHP / N310 work really well in the Bullseye gun, Clark Custom, Bar-Sto barrel, Bomar full rib sight, and some hand fitted accessories. But each gun has its preferences, with the operator removed and placed in a Ransom Rest shoots extremely well I'm sure you will find "that secret formula" to work in that Dan Wesson.

-Snoopz

 

[Snoopz]

For example, a Bell System telephone from 1985 had to be compatible with a 1915 telephone from a working perspective and this limited what the 1985 phone could be made to do. On the other hand, it all worked, perfectly, by design.

So in the process went from 4 wire to 2 wire, remember a little about it, tip n ring, voltage across the taps.etc. Ran a 100 node PCBoard system before all the internet access, dialup USR HST modems.
Or software compatibility, Y2K as we didn't think of the year 2000 as most was written with a 2 digit year code. Then you have backwards Compatibility USB 3.1, 3.0, 2.0, 1.1, drive translation tables and how its handled, software that will run on 32 bit systems and so on. Legacy hardware and software

Ah, this is where my context is key.

I have multiple, target grade 22lr pistols, with a variety of grip angles, grips, sights, barrel lengths, you name it. Several of these are well over $1200.
I also have a nicer slightly-customized 9mm target pistol.

Nice as you and your target 22's have several 1911's, ones I built on 80% SS frames hand fitted, "beaters" to Custom Target
A few ole High Standard target pistols. And not to forget a Colt Ace. Nothing like what you have, but thats a choice, right?

I would expect that an 1911 which I might get would perform in this same genre. That may, or may not rule out a $350 Tisas.
From a rest, I will expect competitive size groups at 50 yards.

Use a Ransom Rest for all my testing operator is out of the equation, ammo and gun. Have been looking at 10mm versions here recently.

Not really into plinking too much; also, the 1911 would not be used as defensive gear. I have other platforms for that.

Plinking sure do to test the. Human factor...Bowling Pin Shoots most definitely, and Bullseye, then your casual shooting. Defense theres several

Because I'm thinking the minimum cost of entry here is a $1800 Dan Wesson, to say nothing of the cost of adding a new caliber here (I have no 45ACP now), this decision isn't a casual one.

And, if I choose not to decide, that is still a choice.

Yep your choice and decision, do the same here, I shoot before I buy by finding someone who will let me try it out.
Its nice to have choices and lots of them

Listening to guys who have DECADES of experience is a very good way to either save a lot of money ... or to spend a lot. I appreciate all of you.

You bet, mostly was benchrest shooters, Hi-Power, Bullseye, PPC years ago. Very demanding people. And great mentors

Sorry for the thread hi-jack not what the OP wanted to read. Or hear probably

-Snoopz

 

[mostly22lately]

Sorry for the thread hi-jack not what the OP wanted to read. Or hear probably

I suspect he has found more information than initially sought.

The real and unstated issue versus his original question is the actual availability of replacement parts, more than the fitting thereof.

My experience with offshore made firearms is that parts are not as readily available as with the domestics.
Not wholly surprising.

I wonder if this 1911 is made in the US?
It seems to be a good compromise between cost and other considerations, plus, it's chambered in a caliber I already own.

1911 Garrison 9mm Handgun - Stainless - Springfield Armory

www.springfield-armory.com

I know, I know. 45ACP, or I am a ... well, I already live in Chapel Hill.

 

[Snoopz]

I suspect he has found more information than initially sought.

The real and unstated issue versus his original question is the actual availability of replacement parts, more than the fitting thereof.

My experience with offshore made firearms is that parts are not as readily available as with the domestics.
Not wholly surprising.

I wonder if this 1911 is made in the US?
It seems to be a good compromise between cost and other considerations, plus, it's chambered in a caliber I already own.

1911 Garrison 9mm Handgun - Stainless - Springfield Armory

www.springfield-armory.com

I know, I know. 45ACP, or I am a ... well, I already live in Chapel Hill.

From what I've heard from shooting them they are a pretty decent pistol. A friend of mine has a Bul Armory 1911 like in 9mm and really likes it, he didn't want to go to the 45acp side as what he has is all 9mm, so you may want to give that a look. His really only issue was the sights he wanted and changed the front sight, so it stood out more, and thats a preference / choice. Once again it's what your used to. Hence dot sight, Brite front sights..etc.

As far as the universal swapping of parts / replacement parts. A good friend of mine who builds 1911's / does awesome checkering, etc. We were discussing our current builds / projects. I mentioned that was gathering parts to build another Para Warthog, found the frame, slide and barrel, he mentioned that the sear springs may not be the same and to source one may be difficult. Explained I never broke the Para Warthog down that far other than cleaning. So what i was gonna do is sit down when I had a clear bench, disassemble the Warthog, RIA BBR 3.10 45acp, 70's Series Combat Commamder, AMT hardballer and see visually if there was any difference, with a lighted magnifier, some mics / calipers, and some of the fitting jigs. EGW is my go to place for 1911 parts

Believe it's US made. Not sure and don't hold to this


-Snoopz

 

[NKD]

I suspect he has found more information than initially sought.

The real and unstated issue versus his original question is the actual availability of replacement parts, more than the fitting thereof.

My experience with offshore made firearms is that parts are not as readily available as with the domestics.
Not wholly surprising.

I wonder if this 1911 is made in the US?
It seems to be a good compromise between cost and other considerations, plus, it's chambered in a caliber I already own.

1911 Garrison 9mm Handgun - Stainless - Springfield Armory

www.springfield-armory.com

I know, I know. 45ACP, or I am a ... well, I already live in Chapel Hill.

The best 1911 in 9mm:

 

[keepcalmandcarryon]

The best 1911 in 9mm:
View attachment 728799

Wrong! Glock 19 is the best 1912 in 9mm. Everyone knows Gaston Glock just copied the god John Browning!

 

[mostly22lately]

Gosh, I was hoping it was the one I already have

 

[fieldgrade]

No trigger yolk boys.

Great blasters, but not 1911’s.

 

[mostly22lately]

No trigger yolk boys.

Great blasters, but not 1911’s.

I got the message.

The OP's question still rings loudly in my ears, along with the fact I have no way to understand what the magnetism is for the 1911 until I can try a few.

Coming to the avocation late in life (early 60s) I have both the benefit of not having a legacy to fund and the handicap of not possessing fundamental background experience that others have.

I do know that I was wholly underwhelmed by any of the Glocks I tried, so, I didn't get any. Maybe my 1911 quest will end the same way.