My new EDC load

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As some of you know, I've been loading Underwood 9mm 90gr Extreme Defender exclusively for EDC for some time. Well, I've reconsidered, though maybe not as much as you might think.

After a series of conversations with Underwood, I have accepted their recommendation that I shift my standard to their 68gr load for both my sub-compact and compact pistols and for my PCC.

Here's that baby in gel. It's an expansion/penetration hammer!

 
Going down to 68gr loads, has it changed the poa/poi? Iā€™m seeing more and more about these solid copper bullets. If @BatteryOaksBilly is behind them too there must be something to these things.
At defensive handgun ranges, no. Beyond 25 yards, I don't have enough data to say. but I don't think so.

As far as in the PCC, again at defensive ranges, nothing appreciably different.

Somebody far wiser and more experienced than I said something along the lines that the fluted copper solid is the first real handgun bullet innovation in decades. I argee wholeheartedly.
 
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Ole Pard. Check out Paul Harrell on 9mm ammo on YT....several eye opening videos...he uses a "Meat Target" with clothes....good stuff!

Just watched a few, @BatteryOaksBilly Takeaway seems to be the FMJ over penetrated, and the JHP did not. That was to be expected. So FMJ for range, practice and IDPA but JHP for carry and home defense guns? Did I miss anything?
 
Our "general" conclusions are...there is Nothing more devastating to a living, breathing animal than a bullet constructed with a 65%-68% meplat in a Heavy for caliber at a maximum Pressure velocity. Remember factory ammo is only limited to specific velocities by Pressure.
I think that the LeHigh bullets are the Greatest Handgun Projectile ever devised. Out of a 5 inch gun we are getting 1,716 FPS with the LeHigh 68 grain bullet.....the 90s are running 1,468 out of a 5 inch gun. The 90s are our choice for Handguns. 45 ACP 120 grainers at 1,478 out of a 5 inch gun.
Billy,
The two bolded items appear to disagree - is the lighter weight because copper solids run lighter than lead? Tell me more about this please if you can.
 
More questions. The underwood ammo in the OP - which they call Xtreme Defender actually uses the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator projectile. Xtreme also sells a projectile called Xtreme Defender that is also a fluted copper solid but has a different nose shape. Which version of the projectile did you and Mike play with the develop your favorite loads?

I'm looking at purchasing a supply of these to roll my own SD ammo since Lehigh is now publishing load data.
 
I've been very interested in these types of loads since Lehigh introduced them many years ago, and have carried them in 380. At that time I remember posting a thread expressing that I thought these might be the first real game changing advance in defensive ammo since the hollowpoint, but for some reason I can't find that post in the search. Maybe it was in the previous forum? Have they been out that long?

BTW I found a knockoff round when I was in Dunham's Sports recently and looked for YT videos on it. It's called ARX Inceptor and it uses a polymer/copper hybrid bullet. I think the flutes are undersized and the whole thing is more marketing than science. The 9mm version is only 65gr so it's super high velocity but still surprisingly achieves the required penetration with a bigger wound channel than round nose FMJ, so it may be desirable for some people or some applications. Midway has it on sale for $9.99 a box, I bought 2 to run in my very small very lightweight DB9 9mm pistol that typically produces brutal recoil. These rounds will not penetrate hard barriers, but my application is a gun that is stashed in a fake book in my house as a last ditch option. I think it will do well in that application.

1690152221149.png


The Inceptor track is on the bottom. I think the only real wound generating mechanism in this bullet is it's tendancey to flip backwards. I don't think the flutes in this design are doing anything.

1690151428399.png
youtube.com/watch?v=0W3QyiUU0Xc
 
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are all the "copper philips head" types expected to be similar, or, is there some special sauce that only some of them have?


64 grain 1680 fps, says the box they come in
 
Holy crap I just ordered 2 boxes. No wonder they were so cheap. Can't wait to see what's in the boxes when they get here.
I put them in the cart and then started wondering why they were so highly discounted. Hopefully you receive a different lot. Let us know?
 
Mike and J.D. Jones did the initial work on these before handed off for mass production. We have extensive development with these and the Raptor series bullets. Not only Terminal Ballistics but the design's ability to Fool the feed ramp into taking it for Ball ammo is unprecedented.
Actually very glad to see this. I have seen these types of ammo around and questioned whether it was a decent option or not. The "tricking the feedramp" was something I considered they would be good at.
 
I've been very interested in these types of loads since Lehigh introduced them many years ago, and have carried them in 380. At that time I remember posting a thread expressing that I thought these might be the first real game changing advance in defensive ammo since the hollowpoint, but for some reason I can't find that post in the search. Maybe it was in the previous forum? Have they been out that long?

BTW I found a knockoff round when I was in Dunham's Sports recently and looked for YT videos on it. It's called ARX Inceptor and it uses a polymer/copper hybrid bullet. I think the flutes are undersized and the whole thing is more marketing than science. The 9mm version is only 65gr so it's super high velocity but still surprisingly achieves the required penetration with a bigger wound channel than round nose FMJ, so it may be desirable for some people or some applications. Midway has it on sale for $9.99 a box, I bought 2 to run in my very small very lightweight DB9 9mm pistol that typically produces brutal recoil. These rounds will not penetrate hard barriers, but my application is a gun that is stashed in a fake book in my house as a last ditch option. I think it will do well in that application.

View attachment 648572


The Inceptor track is on the bottom. I think the only real wound generating mechanism in this bullet is it's tendancey to flip backwards. I don't think the flutes in this design are doing anything.

View attachment 648562
youtube.com/watch?v=0W3QyiUU0Xc


These projectiles are injection molded with copper powder mixed into the polymer (plastic).
 
I've heard stories of the polymer projectiles being brittle. Better to stick to the Lehigh copper solids I think.
Some years ago one of my buds in Texas wanted me to give these things a terminal test, in 9mm and 45 ACP. I did, very very unimpressive. As stated, possibly a little more trauma inflicted than standard FMJ, but it was negligible at best. Yes, stick with the Lehigh where the edges of the solid copper bullets are sharper, these plastic bullets are very rounded off.

DSCN2003-XL.jpg


DSCN9174-X2.jpg


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DSCN4072-L.jpg
 
Has anyone compared how the Underwood ammo compares to the Gorilla Ammo offering?


Underwood is saying 1400+ FPS for 3+P offering Gorilla is 1200+ FPS for non +P.
 
They're also making a "platinum edition" coated bullet that's supposed to feed better.

20230725_212941.jpg
 
They're also making a "platinum edition" coated bullet that's supposed to feed better.

View attachment 649581
That's what I bought, based off what I saw in this thread. I got the 68gr. Bought an extra box for me and wife. We went to the range and made sure it feed through a full mag and that there was no discernable POI shift for her red dot. Zero issues. So this is our new carry load.
 
Iā€™m very, very slow to pick up any new projectile designs, sadly Iā€™ve seen that the vast majority of them fail miserably one way or another so I stick with known proven designs like HSTs, Gold Dots etc.

With that said, if I was stuck in a commie state where SD ammo is banned for the lowly subjects, Iā€™d look at SD ammo with Lehigh Extreme bullets simply because they appear to be a little better than FMJ/Ball for self defense, Iā€™d use the same round for ā€œwoodsā€ ammo if I didnā€™t have access to a larger caliber handgun than my 9/40/45 carry gun, but of course my first choice would be a larger caliber.
 
IMG_20230727_162437432_HDR.jpg
You folks talked me into trying some. I have bullets for a 38 Special I usually carry, for 45 Auto, and for 45 Colt. It should be fun. I plan on starting with the starting loads of Unique and see how that works. Any suggestions are welcome. Of the powders listed for those bullets in those chambering, I presently have Unique, Power Pistol, BE 86, and 231. The 38 Special will be used in a J-frame. The 45 Auto is for several 1911pistols of various lengths. The 45 Colt is primarily for Ruger old Vaqueros and Blackhawks.
 
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View attachment 650255
You folks talked me into trying some. I have bullets for a 38 Special I usually carry, for 45 Auto, and for 45 Colt. It should be fun. I plan on starting with the starting loads of Unique and see how that works. Any suggestions are welcome. Of the powders listed for those bullets in those chambering, I presently have Unique, Power Pistol, BE 86, and 231. The 38 Special will be used in a J-frame. The 45 Auto is for several 1911pistols of various lengths. The 45 Colt is primarily for Ruger old Vaqueros and Blackhawks.
@Michael458 @BatteryOaksBilly
 
I presently have Unique, Power Pistol, BE 86, and 231. The 38 Special will be used in a J-frame. The 45 Auto is for several 1911pistols of various lengths. The 45 Colt is primarily for Ruger old Vaqueros and Blackhawks.
I have all three of those bullets you listed above..........

First the 135 Extremes, I bought these long ago, when Lehigh was still owned by David Fricke. I had been using the 120 Extremes, and still do, in 45 ACP. I have used and tested these extensively, and I currently carry those in any 45 ACP I have. Normally first round up, followed by 200 gr FN CEB Solids......... My load in 45 ACP with the 120s is 10/WSF... 18600 PSI, not even Plus P pressures, but in 5 inch guns it gives 1478 fps, 4 inch guns 1392 fps, 3 inch guns like the Kimber Ultras 1275 fps and currently in my 45 ACP Shield 1330 fps.

I bought the 135 Extremes in 2018 or so, and at that time they advertised .452. So I was thinking 45 Colt, and a good bullet for my lighter frame 45 Colt revolvers such as my various 5 shot Taurus guns. Figured this would be a very good step up for those guns. I was thinking lighter loads, and started with 8 gr Unique, thinking to work my way up from there. Well results were extremely poor, my test gun was a 6 inch S&W Custom shop gun, and they stuck in the barrel? I did not know it, as I was getting some sort of reading on the Lab Radar, like 500-600 fps? I fired three rounds, and did not see holes in the target? Finally I stopped, checked the gun, and the barrel was totally blocked. Try as I might, I could not get those bullets out of the barrel....... I even put the gun in a drill press, drilled a hole in the middle of the bullets, did my best to beat them out with a big screw driver, and the damn screw driver became stuck in the barrel!!!!!!!!!!! Talk about a "ClusterF**K".......... Finally I got sick of it, boxed it up, sent it to Brian at SSK and told him I better not hear a damn thing of this, just fix it........ No laughing allowed. Sending big S&W with a screwdriver stuck in the barrel.... LOL...... I think I took photos somewhere... I measured that batch (Lehigh at the time was not known as the best quality control and things can slip by them)....... they measured .450. Why they did not have enough to exit I can only guess, blow by maybe, not building enough pressure or what have you I don't know. I ended up loading them out in 45 ACP and they did great and shot well......... I never did try again after that in 45 Colt.......

With Lehigh being sold now to Wilson, I expect Quality Control to be much better, even though I am not much of a Wilson fan....... I think they will do a much better job with the bullets, and from what I have seen so far they are not disappointing me........

I also have some of the 205s you show and I think some 220s and other .452 caliber bullets. But, I have been playing with those in 450 Bushmaster, and not 45 Colt, but I might try some in the near future. I have some loads with LilGun in 450 Bushmaster that pushes the 205 and 220s to over 2500 fps..... The problem I am having currently is feeding in the semi guns. But I think I am getting close to solving that issue with seating depth, and Dura Mag Magazines......... future tests will tell for sure.......

Almost a year ago my Son Mark David wanted some premium bullets for his J Frame Smith he likes to carry, I too looked hard at the 100 Lehigh Extremes and got a couple of boxes to try out. I don't load much 38 or 357 at all..... just don't care much for them. I went to work with Bullseye, Red Dot, WSF, and V-3N37 in both 357 and 38 Spl.
In the end I went with 8/V-3N37 for 961 fps in 2 inches, 986 fps in 2.5 inches and 1131 fps in 4 inches of gun. I tried up to 9/V-3N37 in the 2 inch J Frame at 1093 fps and just found it too much, pressures might have been fine, but it was more than I cared for, so settled back to 960 fps with 8 gr.

In 357 I tried 18/2400 also for 1114 in 2.5 inch gun. I still have not loaded any in 357.

I did load several batches of 38 Special with 8/V-3N37, @BatteryOaksBilly has some of that batch I think........ Of course I think he is a little disappointed in velocity, and they don't have a big ball of fire coming out...... HEH HEH........

In 9mm I much prefer the 90 Lehighs, and have loaded and tested those extensively with 7.5/V-3N37 at 35700 PSI and 1468 fps in 5 inch guns, 1422 fps in 4 inch Brownings, and 1295 fps in my Shields. I also like the 115 Lehighs at 5/Bullseye at 38500 PSI and 1250 fps in 5 inch guns. I don't shoot or carry the 115s, but have them close by. I do carry and use the 90 Lehighs extensively in every 9mm gun I have. I did test and play with the 68 gr 9mm bullet with 6/Bullseye 31000 PSI and 1600 fps in 5 inch guns, but still like the 90 Lehigh overall better..............

You saw some examples of the 9mm bullets above, these are my favorite 45 ACP bullets.........

DSC02383-L.jpg


DSC02400-XL.jpg




DSC04804-S.jpg


DSCN4028-L.jpg


DSCN4072-L.jpg


Now just to give you a comparison of "Conventional Expanding " Bullets that you might be familiar with, just to show the difference between new Bullet Tech and Old.....

DSC02413-XL.jpg


DSC02415-XL.jpg


DSC02419-XL.jpg
 
I did test and play with the 68 gr 9mm bullet with 6/Bullseye 31000 PSI and 1600 fps in 5 inch guns, but still like the 90 Lehigh overall better..............
Might I ask you to tell me why? (Since I value your opinion far higher than that of Underwood's.)
 
I'm pretty suspect of this stuff.

gel testing was developed to provide a testing baseline for a particular type of wounding, namely expansion and fragmentation.

These type of bullets that attempt to accomplish wounding via fluid displacement are by definition going to look really cool in gel blocks but I don't think it's appropriate to look at gel performance as a 1 to 1 across 2 different wounding mechanics.

Humans are largely water, yeah I get it, but that's not to say that you're going to get equal performance on a human target, and to some degree the jury is still out on the actual effects of temporary stretch cavities on soft targets.

I'm still loading traditional HPs in my carry guns, but I'm also not saying these don't work, only that cool gel footage should be taken with a massive grain of salt.
 
I'm pretty suspect of this stuff.

gel testing was developed to provide a testing baseline for a particular type of wounding, namely expansion and fragmentation.

These type of bullets that attempt to accomplish wounding via fluid displacement are by definition going to look really cool in gel blocks but I don't think it's appropriate to look at gel performance as a 1 to 1 across 2 different wounding mechanics.

Humans are largely water, yeah I get it, but that's not to say that you're going to get equal performance on a human target, and to some degree the jury is still out on the actual effects of temporary stretch cavities on soft targets.

I'm still loading traditional HPs in my carry guns, but I'm also not saying these don't work, only that cool gel footage should be taken with a massive grain of salt.
They don't deform, fail to expand, lose their sharp edges, or lose weight passing through barriers or clothing. They're also barrier blind and shaped to feed like ball ammo.
I agree it's unknown if they're the blenders the gel makes them appear to be, but they have the attributes of a round that exhibits reliable and predictably repeatable performance.
 
That's why I was asking, sounds like a DA's wet dream
I stopped caring about that once I saw the Rittenhouse trial. That DA was trying to say he was criminally negligent for using ball ammo because it could pass through it's intended target. Rittenhouse smartly said, I don't know, ammo is ammo. Then the judge stepped in. The DA proceeded to describe hollow point ammo as "exploding". So it became clear it doesn't matter what your shooting, the DA is going to make it appear to show criminal intent. You admit you shot the guy to stop him from criminally attacking you, and you continued to fire until the threat was demonstrably over ending your justified fear of grievous bodily harm or death.
 
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I have all three of those bullets you listed above..........

First the 135 Extremes, I bought these long ago, when Lehigh was still owned by David Fricke. I had been using the 120 Extremes, and still do, in 45 ACP. I have used and tested these extensively, and I currently carry those in any 45 ACP I have. Normally first round up, followed by 200 gr FN CEB Solids......... My load in 45 ACP with the 120s is 10/WSF... 18600 PSI, not even Plus P pressures, but in 5 inch guns it gives 1478 fps, 4 inch guns 1392 fps, 3 inch guns like the Kimber Ultras 1275 fps and currently in my 45 ACP Shield 1330 fps.

I bought the 135 Extremes in 2018 or so, and at that time they advertised .452. So I was thinking 45 Colt, and a good bullet for my lighter frame 45 Colt revolvers such as my various 5 shot Taurus guns. Figured this would be a very good step up for those guns. I was thinking lighter loads, and started with 8 gr Unique, thinking to work my way up from there. Well results were extremely poor, my test gun was a 6 inch S&W Custom shop gun, and they stuck in the barrel? I did not know it, as I was getting some sort of reading on the Lab Radar, like 500-600 fps? I fired three rounds, and did not see holes in the target? Finally I stopped, checked the gun, and the barrel was totally blocked. Try as I might, I could not get those bullets out of the barrel....... I even put the gun in a drill press, drilled a hole in the middle of the bullets, did my best to beat them out with a big screw driver, and the damn screw driver became stuck in the barrel!!!!!!!!!!! Talk about a "ClusterF**K".......... Finally I got sick of it, boxed it up, sent it to Brian at SSK and told him I better not hear a damn thing of this, just fix it........ No laughing allowed. Sending big S&W with a screwdriver stuck in the barrel.... LOL...... I think I took photos somewhere... I measured that batch (Lehigh at the time was not known as the best quality control and things can slip by them)....... they measured .450. Why they did not have enough to exit I can only guess, blow by maybe, not building enough pressure or what have you I don't know. I ended up loading them out in 45 ACP and they did great and shot well......... I never did try again after that in 45 Colt.......

With Lehigh being sold now to Wilson, I expect Quality Control to be much better, even though I am not much of a Wilson fan....... I think they will do a much better job with the bullets, and from what I have seen so far they are not disappointing me........

I also have some of the 205s you show and I think some 220s and other .452 caliber bullets. But, I have been playing with those in 450 Bushmaster, and not 45 Colt, but I might try some in the near future. I have some loads with LilGun in 450 Bushmaster that pushes the 205 and 220s to over 2500 fps..... The problem I am having currently is feeding in the semi guns. But I think I am getting close to solving that issue with seating depth, and Dura Mag Magazines......... future tests will tell for sure.......

Almost a year ago my Son Mark David wanted some premium bullets for his J Frame Smith he likes to carry, I too looked hard at the 100 Lehigh Extremes and got a couple of boxes to try out. I don't load much 38 or 357 at all..... just don't care much for them. I went to work with Bullseye, Red Dot, WSF, and V-3N37 in both 357 and 38 Spl.
In the end I went with 8/V-3N37 for 961 fps in 2 inches, 986 fps in 2.5 inches and 1131 fps in 4 inches of gun. I tried up to 9/V-3N37 in the 2 inch J Frame at 1093 fps and just found it too much, pressures might have been fine, but it was more than I cared for, so settled back to 960 fps with 8 gr.

In 357 I tried 18/2400 also for 1114 in 2.5 inch gun. I still have not loaded any in 357.

I did load several batches of 38 Special with 8/V-3N37, @BatteryOaksBilly has some of that batch I think........ Of course I think he is a little disappointed in velocity, and they don't have a big ball of fire coming out...... HEH HEH........

In 9mm I much prefer the 90 Lehighs, and have loaded and tested those extensively with 7.5/V-3N37 at 35700 PSI and 1468 fps in 5 inch guns, 1422 fps in 4 inch Brownings, and 1295 fps in my Shields. I also like the 115 Lehighs at 5/Bullseye at 38500 PSI and 1250 fps in 5 inch guns. I don't shoot or carry the 115s, but have them close by. I do carry and use the 90 Lehighs extensively in every 9mm gun I have. I did test and play with the 68 gr 9mm bullet with 6/Bullseye 31000 PSI and 1600 fps in 5 inch guns, but still like the 90 Lehigh overall better..............

You saw some examples of the 9mm bullets above, these are my favorite 45 ACP bullets.........

DSC02383-L.jpg


DSC02400-XL.jpg




DSC04804-S.jpg


DSCN4028-L.jpg


DSCN4072-L.jpg


Now just to give you a comparison of "Conventional Expanding " Bullets that you might be familiar with, just to show the difference between new Bullet Tech and Old.....

DSC02413-XL.jpg


DSC02415-XL.jpg


DSC02419-XL.jpg
Thanks for the information. I loaded the 135 grain .451 bullets in some 45 Auto cases with 8.1 grains of Unique. They shot well in both a Ruger Blackhawk and a 1911. I was surprised at the light recoil. I might get out the chronograph next week. I hope to try some slightly heavier loads as well as some loads with the other chamberings. I had not thought about 450 Bushmaster. That might be interesting. I have not tinkered with that chambering in a while.
 
No penetration figures quoted by Mike came from Jell tests. We have a proprietary medium that matches over 1,000 field autopsies.

Jel comparisons are simply for marketing.
As I understand it, jells are just to provide a level playing field so that "A" can be compared to "B" and "C".
 
A couple of the negative reviews had pictures attached. Hereā€™s what they posted. View attachment 648981View attachment 648982View attachment 648983View attachment 648984View attachment 648985
The ARX 9mm I ordered from Midway came in and they have the same issues but not as severe and not every round. Anyone who has reloaded recognizes this issue. They didn't flare the case mouth enough before seating the bullet. It's not a big issue, just clean the excess off before loading in your magazine. All it takes is a fingernail. Just to reiterate I'm not a fan of this ammo but I have a particular application for it that I think it will do well in.
 
through proper design the bullets when loaded to proper OAL "FOOL" the feed ramp of everything we have tried them in. The feed and cycle as a FMJ. If any of you haven't tried these...please, DO.
I just received the Underwood Extreme Defender 380 +p 68gr and it's not fooling my LCP Max. The first round in the mag won't chamber at all, nor the second once I manually get one in the chamber. I did get one to chamber farther down the mag and I'm not sure if that was due to less mag spring tension or the flutes randomly lining up differently.

Although I do have issues sometimes with the hollowpoints I'm carrying in it on the first round, I've never had trouble beyond that. So the hollowpoints are definitely working better than the Lehigh bullet rounds.

You can see in these pics I just took that depending on how the Lehigh bullet is turned, it can have a wider meplat than the hollowpoint and I believe that is what is causing my issue. I'm real disappointed, I wanted to carry these. I carried a version of this bullet in a Taurus 380 back when they came out with no issues so I expect it's a LCP Max problem more than anything.

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