Outdoor Limited Has 9mm In

tanstaafl72555 said:
You guys in horror at the outlandish prices people are paying clearly DO NOT GET IT. These are not people like me and you. They MIGHT have one shotgun or 22 bolt action, but they have RECENTLY, VERY RECENTLY, decided that they need a handgun for personal defense, or an AR. They have not been shooting for years, and do not have any intention of "training." They will be no match for any person with any type of military training, and will die within 3 mins of such an encounter. They know this and it is not on their list of "prepper" items, thin as that may be. What they DO know is there was recently a riot less than 10 miles from their house, and they see black bandana clad people on the streets not far from their home. They will have maybe 3 or 4 boxes of 9 mm/.223, so it does not matter that much to them if they pay 10 dollars a box or 50, or even 75 or more. Once it is bought and on the shelf they are DONE.

You can sneer at these people all you wish, but that is who is buying. There is a literal tsunami of these kind of people entering the market. My brother and sister are real close to this mentality. They ask me how much ammo I have and I just say "probably more than you do." My brother laughs, because he saw my pickup truck springs sagging from all the ammo cans filled with ammo on my last move, and laughed at me about it then.

We are two different worlds, and those worlds are coming together. ANTIFA and the communist left are driving us together. Try to welcome them, as they are not the enemy here.
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I was having this discussion with a fellow board lurker yesterday. We were discussing gun sales numbers and statistics on the number of first time buyers. I told him that, even though this is an inconvenience that has lessened our range meet ups, it COULD turn out to be a good thing, in a couple ways. First, if they feel threatened enough to buy a gun, MAYBE a few of them will be sympathetic to our plight if and when the grabbers get into power positions, and MIGHT stand shoulder to shoulder with us. That's a huge might. Those first time buyers now see that the "loopholes" only exist for criminals, and they are already criminals, so laws be darned. On the flip side, if and when things return to semi normal, there will be a bunch of barely used (if at all) guns and ammo on the used market.

I have a couple acquaintances that have made first time purchases. I am having discussions with them about the state of things. I tell them they need to practice, and i mean more than 1 Box of ammo. I do find it hilarious when they ask me if they can buy ammo from me. I really hate to be that guy, but I tell them I will sell them small quantities, at current prices. They have balked at me for this (because they know I was buying at $0.13 per), but then I explain it's gonna cost me that much or more to replace it. They pay the money, and buy their 50-100 rounds. After seeing these prices at OL, I am no longer selling any ammo. I guess I'll sit on my stash, and hope things get better.

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wvsig said:
I understand the fear but to me the lesson people did not learn from Sandy Hook is that within a period of time ammo got cheap again. Decent AR15s were selling for less than they were before the tragedy at Sandy Hook. I think that is the thing that keeps getting missed. Yes it took some time but as bad as Sandy Hook was it was a bump in the road. I am not sure this is any different.
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The multiplier, as if one is needed, is that it's close to election time...and historically there are always spikes in sales and so on around this time. If things come back to pre-panic pricing, i would guess it will be well after March of 2021, likely around this time next year.
 
Spekter said:
The multiplier, as if one is needed, is that it's close to election time...and historically there are always spikes in sales and so on around this time. If things come back to pre-panic pricing, i would guess it will be well after March of 2021, likely around this time next year.
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Right I understand all of that but why is every bump in the road treated like the end of times?
 
wvsig said:
Right I understand all of that but why is every bump in the road treated like the end of times?
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herd mentality...and waiting until they’re behind the 8-ball to “do something”.

I really don’t mind bending over back’ards to help folks, but it really pisses me off when some of the same folks who are now trying to “stock up” were the same folks who scoffed, ridiculed and mocked the idea just a few short years ago when folks tried to tell them about, “gettin while the gettin’s good”.

Wanted to, but couldn’t: “Hey dude...get over here; got a couple boxes of ammo for you.”

Could, but wouldn’t, even after being warned:
Sympathy tank is on “E”.
 
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To maybe apply a different perspective: many new folks buying at these prices aren't thinking how much ammo was, or how much its worth or should be. They are thinking how much is my life and that of my loved ones worth. To them there was no "then", only "now". Sure, could have/should have etc, but they are where they are and recognize that $50, $100, $1000 whatever is what it takes. Glad I'm not in their shoes, but also understand that value is relative- like trying to buy a generator in the middle of your first hurricane, accepting that you are totally screwed is lesson one. Then resolving never to be in that situation again as lesson one is absorbed.

We were them till we got grey hair.
 
He sold another 500 $40 boxes in the past 9 hours. :eek:
 
wvsig said:
I understand the fear but to me the lesson people did not learn from Sandy Hook is that within a period of time ammo got cheap again. Decent AR15s were selling for less than they were before the tragedy at Sandy Hook. I think that is the thing that keeps getting missed. Yes it took some time but as bad as Sandy Hook was it was a bump in the road. I am not sure this is any different.
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Therein lies your answer.
You are speaking from a perspective of having the reserves, in case you're wrong and/or the ability to bridge until things "return to normal". Others may not have that luxury.
 
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Jeppo said:
He sold another 500 $40 boxes in the past 9 hours. :eek:
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I saw an invoice from the distributor laying on a counter for ammo couple weeks ago. Broke out my calculator. That’s one hell of a profit on one item in 9 hours if he paid the same. Gonna be filthy rich when this is over. They’re making Cheaper Than Dirt look like saints.
 
So, hard times have come again.

Are people still afraid of reman ammo, or is it looking more attractive now?
 
@BlackGun
While I wanna trust that David (owner of OL) is ethical (and not trying to pay off his recent investment in the new facility in one year), I can’t imagine why he needs to sell ammo for three time what I paid Natchess just the other day for the exact same items. When ( if :confused: ) things ever become “normal” again, he may have a reputation to live down.
 
pinkbunny said:
So, hard times have come again.

Are people still afraid of reman ammo, or is it looking more attractive now?
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Not to me. One case head separation on factory reman that rendered the pistol useless till two of us could muscle the brass out of the chamber was enough to convince me.
 
Jeppo said:
@BlackGun
While I wanna trust that David (owner of OL) is ethical (and not trying to pay off his recent investment in the new facility in one year), I can’t imagine why he needs to sell ammo for three time what I paid Natchess just the other day for the exact same items. When ( if :confused: ) things ever become “normal” again, he may have a reputation to live down.
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I can tell you that Natchez made somewhere in the neighborhood of 40% margin off your purchase. Certainly some people can do the math and figure out what sort of numbers OL is working on. It's his business and he can run it as he wishes, but the factors driving this market are pretty unique and hopefully we return to something resembling 'normal', rather than looking back in half a year and wishing for the days of $0.80/rd 9mm.
 
Another 60 $40 boxes in the last two hours. Over 700 boxes since late last night. :eek:
 
Wow....and I thought the “Raleigh, NC” poster on Armslist that was selling a 500 round box of 9mm for $350 or $0.70 per round had a nice “margin”.

I decided to go big time in reloading last summer and cleaned out some “surplus”. Many here helped me @ $0.17 per round. If I still had it today, I would be booking a $784 profit. Oh well....I still got a lot...and my Dillon will make more....as I also stocked up on projectiles and primers....

I have a buddy that stocked up on everything after Sandy Hook and has, as his memory gets fuzzy, been peeling off some and crying about his losses....
 
Jeppo said:
@BlackGun
While I wanna trust that David (owner of OL) is ethical (and not trying to pay off his recent investment in the new facility in one year), I can’t imagine why he needs to sell ammo for three time what I paid Natchess just the other day for the exact same items. When ( if :confused: ) things ever become “normal” again, he may have a reputation to live down.
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Even though I started this thread I really don’t care what he sells his goods for. I have bought from them and thank you for bringing those items to me. It’s doubtful I buy at that price from anyone and I have seen many sellers online at $.60 to $1.00 per round for 9mm. If you go to Gunbroker one of the bigger outfits just outside of Raleigh is selling at $.60 per round per 1000 (could be 500) plus shipping. They are near the low end than the middle on the site.

If your business is ammo only you will find these are by far the highest prices. They are capitalizing on demand just like builders are in a housing shortage market and individual sellers are doing the same. And if some guy in the BST list ammo at $.80 so be it. A Glock19 for $999.00 is ok as well. I’m not buying because I don’t have an urgency. I’m not selling because I don’t want to. I just don’t see sport shooters being much of Outdoor Limited’s latest buyers. A local gun store has very little buying power and pays 20% more than a huge seller and he has lots of 9mm at $.40. But he will not sell more than two boxes at a time the last I saw on Bookface. He’s limiting it to drive foot traffic into the store so you will purchase something else. That’s straight from his mouth.
 
Well, there isnt a 'literal tsunami' of people. lol
But there is a great amount of new people entering the gun world for the first time and needing ammo
It's wild, shocked people are paying almost a dollar a round for 9mm.
And Im stoked some people still out there selling for much less
 
HMP said:
Well, there isnt a 'literal tsunami' of people. lol
But there is a great amount of new people entering the gun world for the first time and needing ammo
It's wild, shocked people are paying almost a dollar a round for 9mm.
And Im stoked some people still out there selling for much less
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I'll sell for less, once my ship comes in.
 
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kcult said:
I'll sell for less, once my ship comes in.
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thank goodness you didnt pick up that boat anchor that was recently offered here!

But there are still companies selling for about 30c + shipping
On here I scored for 30c today (sort of, get it next week from Richard, but yeah)
etc etc

Then some have it for more. And I get that some people are having to pay more right now (dealers), I dont doubt that. But its still wild to me that it's selling at 80c and selling fast
 
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HMP said:
thank goodness you didnt pick up that boat anchor that was recently offered here!
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I wanted it, but I gave away my boat!

But it was a nice anchor.
 
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SGAmmo.com does not have one single round of hundreds of different types in 9mm, 45acp, and 556. Nothing from maybe the largest online seller. From the last posted prices that still exist on a single page (9mm was three pages of types) they are still lower than almost everyone but it gets bought out in a few minutes.
 
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Jeppo said:
You can save 20 cents if you move quickly. They’ve still got 87,000 of Fiocchi at 80 cents per. ;)
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And, 24 hours later, the 87,000 rounds are history; at 80 cents per. :eek:
 
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This thread reminds me of people moaning about "price gougers" for generators, water, and toilet paper. The market is the market, and it is really dumb to expect people to sell under the market to maintain some imaginary code of chivalry. The only thing that will happen is they will get wiped out and have to re-inventory at a shocking price differential.
Someone feels bad for me because I want to shoot in an event and don't have ammo and gives me a box (free or discounted)... that is a FRIEND. A BUSINESSPERSON is going to sell at market, and I expect him to.
 
tanstaafl72555 said:
The market is the market, and it is really dumb to expect people to sell under the market to maintain some imaginary code of chivalry.
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I couldn’t agree more.

However, when one retailer offers an item for 25 cents and another offers the identical item at 80 cents, a few of us dummies have trouble understanding exactly “what is the market”.

Would you explain it to me?
 
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Jeppo said:
I couldn’t agree more.

However, when one retailer offers an item for 25 cents and another offers the identical item at 80 cents, a few of us dummies have trouble understanding exactly “what is the market”.

Would you explain it to me?
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Did I ever say markets were uniformly efficient? If I did, please slap me.
 
There will always be unscrupulous resellers. It is why I don't buy from Home Shopping Network or whatever that QVC scam is. In times of stress on supply I expect there to be WIDE divergences in price, all in "the market."
 
Jeppo said:
I couldn’t agree more.

However, when one retailer offers an item for 25 cents and another offers the identical item at 80 cents, a few of us dummies have trouble understanding exactly “what is the market”.

Would you explain it to me?
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fair-mar·ket val·ue
noun
noun: fair-market value; plural noun: fair-market values

a selling price for an item to which a buyer and seller can agree.


The market is whatever a buyer is willing to pay. Obviously, many buyers are agreeing to pay these exorbitant prices. Or there wouldn't be a market.

Also, consider for a moment the current COVID induced economic crisis. Had it not been this sudden rush for guns and ammo, many of these businesses might be struggling and potentially closing their doors. And since source supply is limited, some business can't get product to sell at any price and therefore aren't making any money anyway.
 
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Recently there have been events that have driven meat prices pretty high. I saw normal ribeyes get to $16.99 per pound. The news media kept telling people there was a shortage. I never believed them because of their wording. We were discussing this one day at a farm supply store. My friend was wanting to sell off part of his herd but the stock sale was limiting the days because buyers were not traveling and slaughter houses were operating on longer hours but following social distance suggestions. All the time more cows were being born and eating grass and hay. Add that every American made a preppers run daily to fill freezers with precious meats in a damnpanic atmosphere. All the while the farmer was getting $1.20 per pound for on the hoof. Wow.

The question- is the above scenario a shortage? I don’t see it as a shortage at all. I saw it as a delay in the supply chain based on demand. For me a shortage is when cows are not available for market due to numbers or farming decline. In the this scenario there was a glut of cows begging to be grilled. There were farmers salivating to stop feeding them $5 bails of hay. The same applies to ammo in my opinion. Shortage is actually an over used word thrown around by retailers to scare the public. There is more ammo than ever in America. These retail ammo owners are not quite being honest about ammo supplies. They are selling ammo in minutes and at huge margins. That is no shortage. Because they have a delay in inventory for panics is far from a shortage. That 50,000 rounds sitting in homes is not a shortage. Because the word shortage is thrown around so much I too am using it incorrectly.
 
My most dramatic experience with market dislocation came on the VERY FIRST DAY I was trading wheat futures in the pit. I was short about 25,000 bushels (short is when you sell first in anticipation of buying back later at a profit when the price goes down) Prices started rising and I was thinking of liquidating my position when all of a sudden BOOM!!!!! Prices rocketed upwards and THERE WAS NO SELLING PRICE. I heard bids screaming all around me going up and up and up and I flipped out, walked out of the pit, went over to my clearing firm and said "I don't know what is happening in there, get me out!" They did, at a dramatic extreme (and I lost all my trading profits for the day, plus a healthy dollop more).

The lesson there is that markets are not "efficient" nor are they "fair" nor are they uniform. Moaning about "greed" or "manipulation" or whatnot won't change this. The only thing you can do is look to the collective to "regulate" this to make it "fair." In doing so it will kill or cripple the engine that provides over time the most price depressing, inventory supplying set of choices you can imagine --the market.

There is no such thing as a "free market," any more than there is a "free society." There are relative degrees of freedom, and constant piddling, messing with, and an absolute determination that market "excesses" can best be fixed by experts with political power. Idiots believe this, and have just tons of anecdotal stories and tons of virtue to back it up. Instead, what is done is that permanent inefficiencies are introduced and permanent barriers to an efficient buy/sell process, and Irving the Imbecile believes the state has "protected" him from the evil exploitative rich manipulators. People are remarkably creative and inventive, though, and are resourceful in doing workarounds, while criminals (call them what they are, just because they are on the Chamber of Commerce does not make them less grifters nor cheats) learn to rig the imbalances for his benefit.

The best thing one can do with momentary price dislocations is 1) learn to be smart 2) become an manipulator. By that I mean BE THE GUY who takes greedy rapacious obscene profits.... because in doing so, you introduce supply into the marketplace (and SUPPLY is the only antidote for higher prices when you have freedom) 3) Resist the idiots who tell one sad and tear jerking story after another about how the mean old sellers just won't let prices go down and we need more RULES.

If you want lower prices, get rid of the rules. Let people freely supply and bid and offer and sell and buy. If you find yourself in a spot where prices aren't what you want, then adapt and wait till they come around (they always do), and be the smart guy who planned for the shortage. When this one goes away (they always do) another one will come (they always do). It is called "preparation."
 
BlackGun said:
I didn’t look at the 22LR pricing. $.20 a round is pure crazy. I need to get a table at a gun show and buy a car. I think I paid $.04 per round. I guess I am now considered a better investor than the guys on Wall Street.
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I’ve got some Blazer that cost 2.4 cents per round, all in.
 
Jeppo said:
I’ve got some Blazer that cost 2.4 cents per round, all in.
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What will our marketing banner say? We need to get in the worry box like a life insurance agent. I like “No more Ammo after November 3rd. Get it while you can.”
 
Jeppo said:
I couldn’t agree more.

However, when one retailer offers an item for 25 cents and another offers the identical item at 80 cents, a few of us dummies have trouble understanding exactly “what is the market”.

Would you explain it to me?
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From what I can see the large retailers who buy directly from the manufacturers have the smallest price increases. Bass Pro, Natchez, Cabelas, Sportsman’s Guide etc...

The smaller shops who buy from the distributors seem to have the largest price increases. People like OL buy from distributors. It seems like those distributors are marking up the price at a similar % as those that buy direct.

Places like OL are a bidding war of sorts to get something to sell just like the consumer is in a race to the store with something in stock. This continues to drive up the distributors price. By the time the Ammo gets to OL it has experienced 2 major price hikes. One at the manufacturers level one at the distributor level. OL then has to market it up.

This is also the best case scenario for people like OL. As a result of lack of availability they maybe buying from a middle man who has more buying power at the distributor level adding yet another level.

Over the last 18 months it became clear who bought their ammo from the same distributors. The same brands were email blasted out at the same time by certain retailers. You could really tell when brands like SVT, Geco it Men came in. Not your everyday names. Most of the time the pricing was within a few $$$ between retailers.

Now this is speculation but I imagine David is buying anything and everything he can at any price so he has something to sell. We don’t know what he pays and we don’t know his profit margin. On the surface it seems like he is make a huge profit but it is possible he is scraping just to keep his head above water.
 
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BlackGun said:
What will our marketing banner say? We need to get in the worry box like a life insurance agent. I like “No more Ammo after November 3rd. Get it while you can.”
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“Practice now

before it gets real”

:eek:
 
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