PSA - Wake Co. Range to close to public 1/15/20

So how do we find the original agreement where taxpayers were allowed to use the facility we paid for?

and if they thought it was in the red before, just wait till there’s no income from the public.

We need email addresses (sheriff and county officials) and an organized email campaign.
 
CZfool68 said:
This is it. There is a new Sheriff in town and this is exactly why he was elected. Wake Co is getting what we voted for. Things will get worse. As evidenced by our nightly news reports.
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Look no further than our neighboring state to the north, that will be here in no time.
 
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NCLivingBrit said:
You're a good dude mate, but when I see a badge these days I see a threat to my life and liberty, not a lot else. And it wasn't always this way, some of my favorite customers at the gun store were cops, but things have changed.
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Just as an officer having negligent discharge (being used as part justification for the range closure), the bad officer taints peoples opinions of the rest of us. I am curious to know what happened that changed your opinion. @noway2 you did a good job paraphrasing, thank you.
 
My apologies to the OP, didn't mean to highjack the thread talking about LEOs. I truly do hate this for the citizens who use Wake County Range. My personal opinion and feel there is a valid argument to be made this actually places the community in greater danger. Shooters now must shoot at improvised ranges on private property, where no doubt it would be easy for a round to get out from the range and be a threat to the community. At least in the Wake County Range no rounds would get out and threaten the public.
 
Here's the history, as I remember it. Some facts may not be quite right, it's been over 30 years. Around 1986, a lady in Wake Forest named Mary (something) was struck in the hand by a stray bullet likely fired by either a recreational shooter or a hunter. She ran for County Commissioner with the singular goal of ending both within Wake County. Back then Wake had a lot more rural spaces and ad hoc personal ranges were more common. The County compromised with the recreational shooters by promising to build a county range accessible to the public, in exchange for an ordinance that all centerfire rifles would need a berm or 8' elevation. The ordinance was passed and the range was built, but the Sheriff, also named Baker but no relation to the current one, then balked on public access. So the voters found themselves a new sheriff in Donnie Harrison. He opened the range to the public and things were pretty good for sixteen years until the voters lost their minds last year and installed a sheriff who struggles to form coherent sentences. I've seen Wake County voters make some pretty stupid decisions in the thirty years since I got here out of the Navy, but turning out Donnie Harrison for this idiot has got to be the worst.
 
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This idiot's first year has also been rife with scandal around favoritism, mismanagement of money and improperly awarding contracts. What we may find out is that he wanted to give the range contract to someone else, so he waited for the excuse to terminate Range Safety. After all, they are all white guys. If that's the case, we'll probably see the range reopen to the public in a few months with a different company running it. Probably with lots of "diversity" and well connected to the Sheriff and his senior staff. And they will probably want you to give them the make, model, and serial number of every gun fired out there.
 
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MostWanted said:
Here's the history, as I remember it. Some facts may not be quite right, it's been over 30 years. Around 1986, a lady in Wake Forest named Mary (something) was struck in the hand by a stray bullet fired by either a recreational shooter or a hunter. She ran for County Commissioner with the singular goal of ending both within Wake County. Back then Wake had a lot more rural spaces and ad hoc personal ranges were more common. The County compromised with the recreational shooters by promising to build a county range accessible to the public, in exchange for an ordinance that all centerfire rifles would need a berm or 8' elevation. The ordinance was passed, but the Sheriff, also named Baker but no relation to the current one, then balked on public access. So the voters found themselves a new sheriff in Donnie Harrison. He opened the range to the public and things were pretty good for sixteen years until the voters lost their minds last year and installed a sheriff who struggles to form coherent sentences. I've seen Wake County voters make some pretty stupid decisions in the thirty years since I got here out of the Navy, but turning out Donnie Harrison for this idiot has got to be the worst.
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Couldn’t agree more with your last couple of sentences, Wake Co and NC in general taking a turn for the worst. Hard to see any relief for gun owners in the near future, I think we’ll have VA type fight first.
 
NCFubar said:
I’ll bet that the range is actually a fairly significant drain on county funds ... especially the sheriff’s. It is an expensive operation from a cost stand point (management fees, utilities, maintenance, etc) compared to the fees it collects. The TAXES paid by Wake residents (and possibly state and fed training monies) are really what pays the bills for that facility and now the residents are getting locked out? If this was any other type of county owned facility way more residents would be screaming bloody murder.
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Let’s do the math.

Range is open 20 hours per week. There are, IIRC, 3 ranges open to the public...there are 10 stations per range or 30 total The first one is LEO only or for training and league work. The cost is $12/hr. So, max weekly is 30 stations times $12 or $360 per hour. That then equates to $7,200 per week. For this exercise, I’ll use 50 weeks. That is $360,000 per year. The occupancy rate is probably 75% or $270,000. There might be 3 employees on duty. Since they work only 20 hours per week, then it would be logical to maybe knock of the $70k.

Bottom line....the public’s contributions are worth well above $200K per annum. The Public Use is NOT a drain...it is a revenue stream.

NOW....lets also look at the economics of this thing. Almost every expense, save a little electricity for the LED lights and the limited time that they run the exhaust fans is FIXED. On the weekends and in the Public Hours.....they do have a shop keeper and a RSO and a "extra". BUT, the shop keeper sells things and takes in money. All the stuff that is sold there is sold, I believe, above the county's costs. SO, they are making a small profit there.

Next up.....the Leagues. Each league has an $18 NIGHTLY fee. Some bump it to $20 and buy prizes or have a Pizza Fund. BUT, the County collects the $18 per shooter. Sometimes it is sparse, but other times it is full. SO....maybe 15 shooters per night. That equates to $270 per session. There is only ONE paid RSO and Meet Director. The rest is volunteers. YES....the center has to fix the target frames. I dare say that MOST of the shooters there are as good as the LEO and don't damage the frames. The frames are nothing to write home about....so that is not a big deal. They DO provide targets....BIG DEAL. And the meet directors say that there is a tally sheet and you have to turn back in the UNUSED targets. The meet directors don't make $270 at night. There are NO OTHER folks there. They have to lock up and lock the gate.

SO....I think that each night....based on my SWAG (I used to do this for a living and I was fairly accurate) is that the meets "clear" at least $75 each night....maybe $100. That is another $400 or so each week. or another $20K.

If an independent auditing firm were allowed in, my bet is that the county is "making" around $250K per year.....and it is NOT a drain on we poor taxpayers or the swarms of folks that scream...."Subsidizing a HATE GROUP". The haters are the one that HATE for us to have guns and shoot....
 
Wonder if we can sic the internet on Wake County. There are a lot of people that would love to write/call when they find out the govt is removing public access to a publicly funded range. I believe TwangNBang lives in Wake County, maybe we could convince him to do a video?
 
Really sad to see this shut down to the public. I did speak to a few people and one running for King Baker's office next time. I dont believe he has the power to close the range to the pubic without the Commissioners of Wake County. But most of them are against firearms anyway. I dont believe anyone can stop the process.
 
Sheepdog120 said:
Just for fun, Y'all should look at this survey that was done in reference to Police and 2A

https://2acops.com/2019/12/14/what-...u206PhRnP4e0n3jQcDmNL551Nae-GIch-9pXQUsECI83U
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That’s interesting.
Until I read that 40% of the polled LEO’s support unconstitutional red flag invasions, theft of property, along with the associated property damage (many front doors are thousands of dollars). That’s very disturbing.
It looks like almost 1/2 of the responders are blue isis.
 
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For what it's worth, I don't live in Wake nor use the range but support those who are losing their access. I doubt if writing Baker will amount to much. Personally, I would target the Commissioners from the aspect of "it was built for the public mainly" based on an agreement with the Commission originally. Get as many people as possible to bombard WRAL with the same thing. Aim those at Cullen Browder, their "investigative" reporter. We all like to talk here but there are times when we need to be talking in another direction.
 
TomGCherry said:
Let’s do the math.

Range is open 20 hours per week. There are, IIRC, 3 ranges open to the public...there are 10 stations per range or 30 total The first one is LEO only or for training and league work. The cost is $12/hr. So, max weekly is 30 stations times $12 or $360 per hour. That then equates to $7,200 per week. For this exercise, I’ll use 50 weeks. That is $360,000 per year. The occupancy rate is probably 75% or $270,000. There might be 3 employees on duty. Since they work only 20 hours per week, then it would be logical to maybe knock of the $70k.

Very believable estimates ... you do need to take into account they shutdown for a month for cleanup and trap maintenance.

Bottom line....the public’s contributions are worth well above $200K per annum. The Public Use is NOT a drain...it is a revenue stream.

I was not saying public usage of the facility was a drain I’m saying the facility is not nor was it meant to be a profit center for the county. It was built on the premise it was going to be a facility used by law enforcement for training and the to subsidize it open it up to the public for a modest fees.

NOW....lets also look at the economics of this thing. Almost every expense, save a little electricity for the LED lights and the limited time that they run the exhaust fans is FIXED. On the weekends and in the Public Hours.....they do have a shop keeper and a RSO and a "extra". BUT, the shop keeper sells things and takes in money. All the stuff that is sold there is sold, I believe, above the county's costs. SO, they are making a small profit there.

The Sheriff has asked for $100k for lighting upgrades and reps ing the parking lot ... yes it would still be there if the public was not allowed and only LEO’s used it. There is the yearly shutdown for range would still occur for trap cleaning and maintenance ... then general cleaning, maintenance and repair ... etc. The targets and such sold there do generate some revenue but like you said they aren’t huge. As to fixed cost the upkeep and maintenance is not cheap.

Next up.....the Leagues. Each league has an $18 NIGHTLY fee. Some bump it to $20 and buy prizes or have a Pizza Fund. BUT, the County collects the $18 per shooter. Sometimes it is sparse, but other times it is full. SO....maybe 15 shooters per night. That equates to $270 per session. There is only ONE paid RSO and Meet Director. The rest is volunteers. YES....the center has to fix the target frames. I dare say that MOST of the shooters there are as good as the LEO and don't damage the frames. The frames are nothing to write home about....so that is not a big deal. They DO provide targets....BIG DEAL. And the meet directors say that there is a tally sheet and you have to turn back in the UNUSED targets. The meet directors don't make $270 at night. There are NO OTHER folks there. They have to lock up and lock the gate.

SO....I think that each night....based on my SWAG (I used to do this for a living and I was fairly accurate) is that the meets "clear" at least $75 each night....maybe $100. That is another $400 or so each week. or another $20K.

If an independent auditing firm were allowed in, my bet is that the county is "making" around $250K per year.....and it is NOT a drain on we poor taxpayers or the swarms of folks that scream...."Subsidizing a HATE GROUP". The haters are the one that HATE for us to have guns and shoot....
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Mypost is not that the facility is a drain (probably should have used a different word) because of public use it is a facility that was never meant to be a positive revenue center for the county and when originally pitched that fact it was going to be operating as a cost to the county allowing the general public to use it would be a benefit to the tax payers like a public park, swimming pool or rec facility which all are facilities that are not positive revenue generators for the county ... more like perks for tax payers. My post was more saying if people knew how much that facility costs to operate and the Sheriff or whoever decided to take away public usage and throw that subsidizing revenue from a county facility that costs a nice chunk to operate they be mad if it was a pool, park etc but since it’s a “loud dangerous” gun range the average person and even media whore won’t care ... and the gun owners get the shaft and the county tax payers will be charged an extra $XX.XX per year to make up for loss of subsidizing revenue from allowing citizens to use a facility that they paid for, pay the operation of and were told originally would be allowed some access to ...
 
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NCFubar said:
Mypost is not that the facility is a drain (probably should have used a different word) because of public use it is a facility that was never meant to be a positive revenue center for the county and when originally pitched that fact it was going to be operating as a cost to the county allowing the general public to use it would be a benefit to the tax payers like a public park, swimming pool or rec facility which all are facilities that are not positive revenue generators for the county ... more like perks for tax payers. My post was more saying if people knew how much that facility costs to operate and the Sheriff or whoever decided to take away public usage and throw that subsidizing revenue from a county facility that costs a nice chunk to operate they be mad if it was a pool, park etc but since it’s a “loud dangerous” gun range the average person and even media whore won’t care ... and the gun owners get the shaft and the county tax payers will be charged an extra $XX.XX per year to make up for loss of subsidizing revenue from allowing citizens to use a facility that they paid for, pay the operation of and were told originally would be allowed some access to ...
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Yes, My numbers were somewhat broadbrushed. I think they were conservative. However, if you drop out a month's revenue, then you could lower it.... BUT, I also don't know the quantity and markup on the supplies and such. There has to be a major profit in the targets....since I use my own and have not sampled (or observed) the sales, then I still think it would be in the $225K to $275K as my occupancy was low. Bottom line....Wake County was NOT subsidizing shooters. It was NOT a drain on taxpayers.

One has to remember that a few years ago, several of the WCPSS Bus and Purchasing employees had a kickback scheme that was uncovered and there was around $3 MILLION ($3,000,000.00) in purchases of school bus parts that were out and out FRAUD. When the WC Commissioners and WCPSS Administrators were confronted at some county meetings, about HOW the county was gonna "Cover" that without impacting a child's education (or experiences), the answer was "We got it COVERED....we got a Rainy Day Fund and this won't even make a DENT in it...". That was a direct quote (recorded but never got played on the air...but was in several articles" that one of the Commissioners made.

SO....Wake County is not exactly POOR.
 
TomGCherry said:
Yes, My numbers were somewhat broadbrushed. I think they were conservative. However, if you drop out a month's revenue, then you could lower it.... BUT, I also don't know the quantity and markup on the supplies and such. There has to be a major profit in the targets....since I use my own and have not sampled (or observed) the sales, then I still think it would be in the $225K to $275K as my occupancy was low. Bottom line....Wake County was NOT subsidizing shooters. It was NOT a drain on taxpayers.

One has to remember that a few years ago, several of the WCPSS Bus and Purchasing employees had a kickback scheme that was uncovered and there was around $3 MILLION ($3,000,000.00) in purchases of school bus parts that were out and out FRAUD. When the WC Commissioners and WCPSS Administrators were confronted at some county meetings, about HOW the county was gonna "Cover" that without impacting a child's education (or experiences), the answer was "We got it COVERED....we got a Rainy Day Fund and this won't even make a DENT in it...". That was a direct quote (recorded but never got played on the air...but was in several articles" that one of the Commissioners made.

SO....Wake County is not exactly POOR.
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Read my post ... the general public shooters and leagues are subsidizing the Facility thru their fees ... the Facility will cost about the same yearly without or without being open to the public. By closing it to the public the revenue from public usage will be lost and tax payers will be have to pay a couple extra bucks per year to make up throwing away that lost revenue.
 
@NCFubar @TomGCherry The public access is run by a private company called Range Safety Management. The evening staff is entirely employed by RSM; I never saw a deputy on site until the accident a few weeks ago. When you sign up for a class, you make the check out to RSM. I don't know the details of the business arrangement they have with the county. I suspect they pay rent for the facility to the Sheriff, and all the public revenue and operating expenses like RSO pay are part of RSM's business operations. If that's the case, then closing public access is a loss of revenue for the Sheriff.

Even if it was costing the County money, a recreational shooting facility is just as justified as a tennis complex or swimming pool. And most of those are also managed by private companies that rent the facility from the county.
 
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This is nothing more than the King showing his power to shut down programs he doesn't like. He doesnt believe in the 2nd or your rights. Nothing more ... Nothing less
 
Just a thought - might not be a bad idea to share the petition on your local NextDoor pages. I'm sure there's a lot of antis on there, but I imagine there are others that may be willing to sign but may not be on this forum.
 
MostWanted said:
@NCFubar @TomGCherry The public access is run by a private company called Range Safety Management. The evening staff is entirely employed by RSM; I never saw a deputy on site until the accident a few weeks ago. When you sign up for a class, you make the check out to RSM. I don't know the details of the business arrangement they have with the county. I suspect they pay rent for the facility to the Sheriff, and all the public revenue and operating expenses like RSO pay are part of RSM's business operations. If that's the case, then closing public access is a loss of revenue for the Sheriff.

Even if it was costing the County money, a recreational shooting facility is just as justified as a tennis complex or swimming pool. And most of those are also managed by private companies that rent the facility from the county.
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I don’t think I’ve ever seen an on-duty Sheriff’s staff personnel functioning in any official capacity there either. Wonder what will happen with the day to day operations after this? Will the Sheriff staff the facility with their personnel which will cost his department wages and benefits? Will they contract out to a management company which will cost them? Either way in addition to any list of revenue generated from public usage there will be an increase in operational cost be it Sheriff staff or contractor. Just more money King Baker and the commissioners will throw away in addition plus reneging on the original agreement with taxpayers to allow citizens some access so the County and Sheriff to build the multi-million dollar facility.
 
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MostWanted said:
@NCFubar @TomGCherry The public access is run by a private company called Range Safety Management. The evening staff is entirely employed by RSM; I never saw a deputy on site until the accident a few weeks ago. When you sign up for a class, you make the check out to RSM. I don't know the details of the business arrangement they have with the county. I suspect they pay rent for the facility to the Sheriff, and all the public revenue and operating expenses like RSO pay are part of RSM's business operations. If that's the case, then closing public access is a loss of revenue for the Sheriff.

Even if it was costing the County money, a recreational shooting facility is just as justified as a tennis complex or swimming pool. And most of those are also managed by private companies that rent the facility from the county.
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Well, now we know. The RSM, which was a holdover from the previous sheriff is the problem, or so the current Sheriff would want the uninformed and ditto headed public to believe.. Our new Sheriff probably has some of his contributors or friends lined up to form a NEW management company....just to run the range for LEO.

Wake County is a hotbed of “political back scratching”. I offer the fact that Wake County spends over $3,000,000.00 ANNUALLY for “special transportation needs” for WCPSS students. A bussed in kid causes an issue on a school bus. No reprimand....the disruptive student gets his own taxi or ride. Look at the number of SUV’s (some of which are not exactly in a safe state of repair) that have an OFFICIAL SCHOOL TRANSPORTATION bumper sticker. Reece “enterprises” is the major contractors and the School Board will not divulge how much $$ are paid and if the contracts are “competitive quoted”. HMMMMMM

Here is the excuse....from the source.

https://www.wral.com/public-shooting-range-in-apex-out-of-money-will-close/18841181/

my math was based on the salaries of the actual folks working there. Add in some administrative overhead and it still was a profit center.

really a BS explanation....and why did that not surprise me?
 
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The article title says it's going to close, but it sounds like it's just going to the plebians, as others have suggested. :mad:
 
TomGCherry said:
Well, now we know. The RSM, which was a holdover from the previous sheriff is the problem. Our new sheriff probably spent several years coercing the deputy to shoot himself.

Here is the excuse....from the source.

https://www.wral.com/public-shooting-range-in-apex-out-of-money-will-close/18841181/

my math was based on the salaries of the actual folks working there. Add in some administrative overhead and it still was a profit center.

really a BS explanation....and why did that not surprise me?
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I’m not sure is Baker or WRAL is lying. “Last month, a civilian firearms instructor at the range shot himself in the leg while holstering his gun, authorities said.”
 
WRAL is kissing the King’s ring and spreading that crap. Point fingers at a management company for mismanagement and then twist the original agreement with citizens of Wake to build it. That facility was built first for local agencies to train in and then for citizen use ... not as a for-profit-center for the Sheriff or county. That’s how its construction costs were justified to the citizens of Wake ... law enforcement needed it and when not being used by them the good citizens could use it (at a charge). What does he and the other politicians expect ... taxpayers to pay and build the facility and then the civilian users foot all the costs for it so the agencies can use it for free?

When Baker says
"To the responsible gun owners who use the facility, I understand your concern," Sheriff Gerald Baker said in a statement. "This decision was not made in haste. We will continue to review how to use this training center that works in the best interest of all citizens, while saving taxpayer money. Unfortunately, the current agreement only met the needs of a few."
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People in Glass Houses Baker! People in Glass Houses ... his spending has been questioned by some in quite a few areas from allocation to contractual agreements. Self-serving son of .....

He then goes on to say
Baker said Wake County needs more space to provide training for local, state and federal law enforcement agencies.

"We are living in dangerous times," he said. "We need to have an ability to provide increased training opportunities for our officers so that they are prepared to face the dangers that may await them every day they protect our neighborhoods."
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So what does he want now? A bigger fancier facility that will cost millions to build and the operate it solely for agencies? That sounds like Mo money ... Mo money ... Mo money and no civilian usage. Translation screw the taxpayers by building a new facility then screw civilian firearms owners (Wake residents especially who footed a good portion of the bills) by having no place to shoot. Typical Dummicrat ... spend stupid money while screwing citizens
 
I shot a lot here in the beginning of this decade. I try to stay away from public ranges these days but I hate to see it closed. Also, my taxes are paying for this!

If you wanted it to make more money, they should have opened it longer hours. Closing it will guarantee that it will make zero dollars.
 
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I guess I'll ask for a refund of my $250 Annual Membership I paid back in July. At the same time I think the members should ask the county (or State), for an audit of the operations as taxpayers, because this doesn't add up. They just spent a good part of the summer repaving the entire parking lot.
 
Justin Case said:
I guess I'll ask for a refund of my $250 Annual Membership I paid back in July. At the same time I think the members should ask the county (or State), for an audit of the operations as taxpayers, because this doesn't add up. They just spent a good part of the summer repaving the entire parking lot.
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as well as replace the backstop like they always do in August
 
WadeWatts said:
I shot a lot here in the beginning of this decade. I try to stay away from public ranges these days but I hate to see it closed. Also, my taxes are paying for this!

If you wanted it to make more money, they should have opened it longer hours. Closing it will guarantee that it will make zero dollars.
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Yes, the weekend hours could have been earlier and later, I forgot about the matches as Miss Lily pointed out earlier.
 
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THe title of the WRAL article and reading between the lines from the sheriff, the range is not closing, it is just being closed to the public and since when do the tax payers of wake co need to pay for a range for 'federal" law enforcement training not that we dont already in our federal taxes. This whole thing stinks. Wonder what the facility could be purchased for from the county since it is such a financial burden?
 
Edit: I wasn’t aware of the memberships. Just found it on their website
 
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