Reloading issues

BigWaylon

BigWaylon

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NOTE: figured I'd pull all of these out of the big thread to clean it up a bit


Well...so far, I've loaded about 3 dozen dummy rounds. Have yet to have 2 in a row pass the plunk test. I've adjusted the dies both directions. Fed up with it at the moment, so I'm stopping. I'll break these rounds down tomorrow and try again. :mad::mad::mad:

IMG_8725.JPG

Haven't even made it to the point of dealing with the shell loader, the priming stage, or verifying charge weight.
 
Lucky13bullets said:
Have you checked to make sure you are getting the flare out?
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It sure looks like it. I adjust that one little bit by bit, to the point I knew (or at least think I knew) it was too far. Like a very obviously shiny ring on the brass where it was crimping it too much. I had one that was almost perfect...then the next one didn't work.

And I'm fairly certain I'm loading on the short end of things, so I think it's an issue with the flare and then the crimp. Most of the load list something around 1.14-1.15, and I'm down around 1.12 to make sure length isn't the problem. I have the 100rds I loaded at Jim's house that all plunk in, and they're in the 1.118-1.123 range.

A sized piece of brass drops in just fine, so I think I'm good there.

Is it possible to flare too "deep", so that the seating stage isn't removing the full length of the flare?
 
BigWaylon, post a close up pic of the failing rounds
 
Mike Overlay said:
BigWaylon, post a close up pic of the failing rounds
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None of these drop in.

IMG_8726.JPG

And by that I mean this is the closest any of those get, and most are worse:

image.jpg
 
Just loaded one more, so I'll know where I'm starting from. This one is longer (I'd been adjust the dies) @ 1.146, and also has some shavings, which I've gotten on some of them...but not all.

IMG_8728.JPG

And after cleaning the shavings off, it seats this far:

IMG_8729.JPG
 
Lucky13bullets said:
Shavings mean you are not flaring enough or the bullet is still moving down as it is trying to crimp. Pull a bullet and see if the shaving starts low on the base. If it does you aren't flaring enough. If it starts high on the base you are crimping too much when the bullet is still moving
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From the ones I pulled earlier, it wasn't right at the the bottom. Up maybe 1/16"-1/8". Too late to make the noise to pull the one I just did.
 
BigWaylon said:
From the ones I pulled earlier, it wasn't right at the the bottom. Up maybe 1/16"-1/8". Too late to make the noise to pull the one I just did.
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size and then expand/flair a piece of brass, set a bullet on top and post a closeup picture, my guess is that you're being too conservative with the expanding.

Setting up a seating/crimping die for a bullet without a crimp groove is partly dark art. You may want to back off the crimp (raise the die and then reset the OAL by lowering the seating stem) and seat a batch, then go back and set the crimp with the seating stem raised out of the way and crimp the batch. There are a lot of folks that buy a die (often a Lee Factory Crimp Die) and then seat and crimp separately.
 
When in doubt, get a visible bellmouth in your case....like the end of a trumpet. Then back off until the bullet just sits slighty in the case by itself before seating. Then use the crimp function to just remove that bell. Voila.

Oh and read the instruction sheet for your dieset. Dont laugh. Lee told me to back out exactly 3 turns on the 38spl seating die. With derision and pride I laughed and said yeah right I will seat it against a factory round. Guess what? 3 turns out put it right on the case mouth......
 
Ikarus1 said:
When in doubt, get a visible bellmouth in your case....like the end of a trumpet. Then back off until the bullet just sits slighty in the case by itself before seating. Then use the crimp function to just remove that bell. Voila.

Oh and read the instruction sheet for your dieset. Dont laugh. Lee told me to back out exactly 3 turns on the 38spl seating die. With derision and pride I laughed and said yeah right I will seat it against a factory round. Guess what? 3 turns out put it right on the case mouth......
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I've definitely read them, several times. Even pulled all the dies out and started over just to be sure.
 
Big Waylon,

I would just like to second what everybody else is saying. It is probably too much expansion or crimp. I had a similar problem with some cast 45's that I was loading using a combined seat and crimp die and on some 9mm brass by certain manufacturers. If you expand the brass too much when you go to the seat and crimp die, the brass starts crimping before the bullet is fully seated. This increases the force required to seat the bullet and it will bulge the brass slightly where it will not pass the plunk test. The same thing happens if you have too much crimp, it starts crimping before the bullet is fully seated resulting in the same problem.

If you seat and crimp in two different steps it is much easier to set up. Since I run a powder cop die and a bullet feeder die I have not gone that way. Takes a little bit more time setting up the dies though.
 
blewis3 said:
Big Waylon,

I would just like to second what everybody else is saying. It is probably too much expansion or crimp.
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I'm saying the same thing. I don't believe it's a length issue.

But, I don't know enough to fix it. Got a member here that we're working on our schedules to have him stop by today, so hopefully we get it figured out.
 
BigWaylon said:
I'm saying the same thing. I don't believe it's a length issue.

But, I don't know enough to fix it. Got a member here that we're working on our schedules to have him stop by today, so hopefully we get it figured out.
Click to expand...

Screw Brad, get a chamber reamer
 
The main thing is to not overcrimp and for an autoloader, check the COAL of factory round that does chamber. Youve done 95% of everything right.
 
Ikarus1 said:
The main thing is to not overcrimp and for an autoloader, check the COAL of factory round that does chamber. Youve done 95% of everything right.
Click to expand...
Not just factory, I have 100rds of the exact same 147gr Zombies that drop in. I'm loading to the same length...which is why I agree it's a flare/crimp issue.

@FatboyFlash will be here around noon, so hopefully about 12:04p he can post up what the easy fix was. :D
 
BigWaylon said:
Not just factory, I have 100rds of the exact same 147gr Zombies that drop in. I'm loading to the same length...which is why I agree it's a flare/crimp issue.

@FatboyFlash will be here around noon, so hopefully about 12:04p he can post up what the easy fix was. :D
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It sounds like brass contact not OAL, you can easily verify by coloring one with a sharpie dropping it in gently and then spinning, wherever contact is occurring will have witness marks.

With 147 Zombies in my Lone Wolf barrel I had to seat to 1.11 to not get an occasional round that didn't plunk, very short leade. Mine was definitely bullet sticking cause occasionally I'd pull one out at ULSC, not fun.

I use Lee dies in a progressive and seat and crimp .358" cast bullets in one station without issue. Which is to say your problem can be solved. I also expand with a .38S&W PTX specifically to expand further down as the Lee 9mm doesn't reach very far, so I doubt you are expanding too far down if you are using the Lee 9mm.

My method,
Flare to the point I can set a bullet in the case mouth ever so slightly, not on it.

Back the seating die out, a lot, so there's no way it's crimping, seat to overall length desired,

then back the seating stem way out so there's no way it's going to contact, turn the die body down until I feel it touch the case mouth definitively (it won't stop, but when it first touches there's still some slack in the system), then lower the ram go an 1/8th turn further, run the round up, and examine, repeat, advancing the die an 1/8th turn until I get something I like (should be about .378/.380 with a .356 bullet),

then run the bullet up one more time, adjust the seating stem down to firm contact, lock the die down and start loading. Sometimes the length will take a little tweak after but crimp should be good.
 
BTW, I'm just glad the ones you made at my place plunk, would have been embarrassing.

Next time I'll know to set things up to produce common problems.
 
Well, it wasn't a 30 second fix. Seems like I had the flaring/powder die down a hair too long, and sometimes it was what was stopping the motion. But there was a lot of trial and error with the crimp and seating depth before we got to that point.

Here's the first loaded round:

IMG_8732.JPG

Big thanks to @FatboyFlash for the help.

Now...here's how my luck goes. We ended up having to load shorter than everything else I had here, so I think some further adjustment could be done. I'm closer to 1.09, which is definitely shorter than the ones I have from @JimB that work...they're just over 1.12".

And of course, once he leaves, I go to load up 10 or so to test, and every last one of them has shavings, like this example:

IMG_8731.JPG

Uggh...
 
You using range brass? or new brass? Look at your cases side by side, you might have a bunch of case height variations and that is causing your issues. The one picture looks like the brass is all over in height. Definitely can cause an issue like over doing the bell or not getting enough as well as crimp issues with a die that seats and crimps. I never crimp with my seating die. I always back it out and use a Lee FCD on jacketed bullets to get rid of the bell and put a slight crimp on it.
 
BTDT my answer was to buy another flare die and put it on the priming station. With nothing moving above it the expander is very consistent.
 
TSConver said:
You using range brass? or new brass? Look at your cases side by side, you might have a bunch of case height variations and that is causing your issues. The one picture looks like the brass is all over in height. Definitely can cause an issue like over doing the bell or not getting enough as well as crimp issues with a die that seats and crimps. I never crimp with my seating die. I always back it out and use a Lee FCD on jacketed bullets to get rid of the bell and put a slight crimp on it.
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This brass was all from Jim. Already cleaned and deprimed.

Most of the ones in the pic were from that same batch, with maybe a couple from a different bucket (when I just felt like trying something else).
 
BigWaylon said:
This brass was all from Jim. Already cleaned and deprimed.

Most of the ones in the pic were from that same batch, with maybe a couple from a different bucket (when I just felt like trying something else).
Click to expand...

But is it all the same headstamp? The picture of 6 or so side by side looks like the brass is varying in height. This will cause an issue especially with 9mm but most any pistol brass.
 
So...I need to add two more dies? Another flaring die to use in the priming station, and an FCD in the last station?

Surely there's a way to adjust these instead. Or maybe not. :(
 
BigWaylon said:
So...I need to add two more dies? Another flaring die to use in the priming station, and an FCD in the last station?

Surely there's a way to adjust these instead. Or maybe not. :(
Click to expand...

You do not need a flaring die. Just do not crimp with the seating die. It is crimping off of case height and varying case height will cause it all kinds of issues. If you want to crimp and I do for all jacketed rounds I use a lee FCD in the last station. It removes all of the bell and can be set to none or to a heavy crimp and anything in between.

Or trim all your brass to one length or use just one headstamp in a loading session and set your dies up for that headstamp.
 
TSConver said:
But is it all the same headstamp? The picture of 6 or so side by side looks like the brass is varying in height. This will cause an issue especially with 9mm but most any pistol brass.
Click to expand...
Not even close. I just counted 7 different headstamps in the 11 rounds I loaded.
 
BigWaylon said:
Not even close. I just counted 7 different headstamps in the 11 rounds I loaded.
Click to expand...

I guarantee that is one of your main issues if not the only issue. Set them all side by side and look at the differences in height. Then think about how the crimper works in the seating die and it will all become clear, :)
 
TSConver said:
You do not need a flaring die. Just do not crimp with the seating die. It is crimping off of case height and varying case height will cause it all kinds of issues. If you want to crimp and I do for all jacketed rounds I use a lee FCD in the last station. It removes all of the bell and can be set to none or to a heavy crimp and anything in between.

Or trim all your brass to one length or use just one headstamp in a loading session and set your dies up for that headstamp.
Click to expand...
FCD would remove the bell from all headstamps/lengths?
 
BigWaylon said:
FCD would remove the bell from all headstamps/lengths?
Click to expand...

yes

Remember on a seating die you adjust the die down to contact the brass then either tighten it if you want more crimp or loosen it if you want no crimp. So if you set it on a short case for a light crimp then a tall case gets crushed.

The FCD you can set to have no crimp but it has a sizing ring in it that still removes the bell even with zero crimp. That is why Don does not like them for lead cause it sizes it all down to .356.

I load for our competition shooting on a Dillon 1050 with an autodrive. I run a lee FCD on it for 9mm. It will run 2000 rounds in 2 hours and I might have 2 or 3 rounds that will not gauge check. And I check every round in a gauge prior to using it in competition, actually Susan checks every round, lol
 
TSConver said:
The FCD you can set to have no crimp but it has a sizing ring in it that still removes the bell even with zero crimp. That is why Don does not like them for lead cause it sizes it all down to .356.
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If all I'm loading is lead, but coated, is this going to be an issue? Don said a majority of the calls/complaints he gets come from people using FCDs with lead projectiles.

I'm trying not to be one of those people. But if I could get away from having to trim brass, or even sort it if possible...I'd give it a shot.

Is setting it to remove the flare, but not crimp, an option? And backing the "crimp" part of the seating die out of the way? Probably able to load a little longer that way?
 
BigWaylon said:
If all I'm loading is lead, but coated, is this going to be an issue? Don said a majority of the calls/complaints he gets come from people using FCDs with lead projectiles.

I'm trying not to be one of those people. But if I could get away from having to trim brass, or even sort it if possible...I'd give it a shot.

Is setting it to remove the flare, but not crimp, an option? And backing the "crimp" part of the seating die out of the way? Probably able to load a little longer that way?
Click to expand...


Cannot use the FCD with Lead it will swage the lead down to .356 so unless that is the size your barrel needs you are sol. You may have to sort brass.

Have you slugged your barrel to see what size it is for lead bullets or just trial and error?
 
TSConver said:
Have you slugged your barrel to see what size it is for lead bullets or just trial and error?
Click to expand...
No.

Ok, so FCD is out if I'm loading lead.

That puts me back to adjusting dies and having to sort brass. Yuck.
 
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