State Trooper killed in crash - Surry

[OverMountainMan]

Are cold stops like that even constitutionally allowed?

No. They are specifically NOT Constitutionally legal. See below.

So an officers death turns into a constitutional argument? Classy

He'd be alive if he wasn't out there violating his oath to that parchment. And samey-same if he didn't value his authority over his life, or the lives of other motorists.

Delaware v Prousse (1979)-

2. Except where there is at least articulable and reasonable suspicion that a motorist is unlicensed or that an automobile is not registered, or that either the vehicle or an occupant is otherwise subject to seizure for violation of law, stopping an automobile and detaining the driver in order to check his driver's license and the registration of the automobile are unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment. Pp. 653-663.

...

(b) The State's interest in discretionary spot checks as a means of ensuring the safety of its roadways does not outweigh the resulting intrusion on the privacy and security of the persons detained.
Given the physical and psychological intrusion visited upon the occupants of a vehicle by a random stop to check documents, cf. United States v. Brignoni-Ponce, 422 U.S. 873 ; United States v. Martinez-Fuerte, 428 U.S. 543 , the marginal contribution to roadway safety possibly resulting from a system of spot checks cannot justify subjecting every occupant of every vehicle on the roads to a seizure at the unbridled discretion of law enforcement officials. Pp. 655-661.​

 

[Qball]

I'm assuming he crashed into that bridge support as he was negotiating a turn at high speed. The majority of passenger cars, including law enforcement cars, are purposely designed to be tight, aka understeer prone, instead of loose, or oversteer prone.

Race cars are designed to be loose, but there's a fine line depending on the type of racing concerning getting the perfect setup to not be too loose or not loose enough.

He was probably going at a higher rate of speed through a turn that either the car was not capable of handling, he was not capable of handling, or both. Sorry for his family's loss.

 

[Scari]

Ok whatever I give the F up I'll just stay out of frickin threads. Die cops die!!!!!!

 

[Scari]

I'm done. Obviously can't post on this forum without self righteous trolls hijacking threads.

 

[Qball]

I forgot to add, a murder charge stuck on a driver eluding is BS in my opinion.

 

[OverMountainMan]

Ok whatever I give the F up I'll just stay out of frickin threads. Die cops die!!!!!!

I'm done. Obviously can't post on this forum without self righteous trolls hijacking threads.

I generally like the way you think. But, I think you're letting emotions cloud your judgement. If you're referring to my response to you, it's not self-righteousness...it's Liberty-righteousness. And, it's worth fighting for, even when good men get their feels hurt in internet forums. We're going to have to push back some on the police state; it won't be all sweetness and light.

Stick around, please.

 

[DCGallim]

This is definitely the part that needs discussing.
There is some truth here.

We’re gonna make a Libertarian out of you yet.

 

[GeorgeBush]

Delaware v Prousse (1979)-

2. Except where there is at least articulable and reasonable suspicion that a motorist is unlicensed or that an automobile is not registered, or that either the vehicle or an occupant is otherwise subject to seizure for violation of law, stopping an automobile and detaining the driver in order to check his driver's license and the registration of the automobile are unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment. Pp. 653-663.

The car in question blew through the checkpoint completely; that was the reasonable suspicion. Where is your court case about checkpoints outside of drunk-ass prom being unconstitutional? Have you ever encountered a license check? What was your reaction?

*disclaimer* - I generally like the way you think but I think your definition of "the police state" is clouding your judgement.

 

[OverMountainMan]

The car in question blew through the checkpoint completely; that was the reasonable suspicion.

I read that the driver pulled a uwee and fled in other direction. Maybe you have different info from the linked account?

Where is your court case about checkpoints outside of drunk-ass prom being unconstitutional?

I don't understand your sentence. Maybe this answers it though: Unless there is an articulable, witnessed offense, there's no legal reason to impede the citizen's travel.

Have you ever encountered a license check? What was your reaction?

Yes. I told them that I did not, and would not, consent to a search, of my person, papers, or effects.

 

[GeorgeBush]

I have seen conflicting accounts regarding the U-turn; I believe you are correct however.

Checkpoints are legal in NC; there are 13 states where they are not.

 

[OverMountainMan]

Checkpoints are legal in NC; there are 13 states where they are not.

I'm all for thumbing our noses at the Feral Gubmint, but that's a US Supreme Court decision I cited. So, as long as the North Carolina law enforcement abides by the Constitution, random or curtain stops are very much illegal.

 

[Qball]

I personally think It's very unfortunate and I hate that it happened. My next statement is not intended to be inflammatory.

I think it's bad policy for LE officers to be allowed to risk their lives and the lives of innocents to chase down speeders, checkpoint skippers, etc.... if it means running the car and/or themselves, beyond their capabilities.

This is reminiscent of a tragedy about fifteen or twenty years ago in Greensboro. A state trooper was chasing a superbike on I-40 and attempted to follow it through a dangerous curve on an exit ramp. Same thing happened. The car understeered going through the turn and slammed into something, killing the trooper.

His family lost him all over trying to write a stupid speeding ticket.

 

[Ikarus1]

Ok whatever I give the F up I'll just stay out of frickin threads. Die cops die!!!!!!

were you this upset when #3 died doing what he loved?

 

[Dale Gribble]

 

[Majicmike]

were you this upset when #3 died doing what he loved?

EARNHARDT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[noway2]

I read that the driver pulled a uwee and fled in other direction.

Turning around when you see one, in my opinion, is a legitimate way of saying you don’t believe in the checkpoint process and are expressly refusing to partake. You should not be compelled to interact with the cops when you’ve done nothing wrong.

As I said, sympathies and condolences for the families, but it’s the processes that put him there they needs to change.

 

[Qball]

This may be construed as heartless. However, I believe it makes a good point about bad policy:

"Mommy. How did Daddy die? Was he chasing a bad guy?"

"Yes he was dear. He was chasing a bad guy."

"What did the bad guy do Mommy?"

You can fill in the rest and you can also reverse the fictional conversation above and make it one from a non-leo family of a deceased family member(s) caught up in one of these circumstances.

 

[fishgutzy]

This guy should be punished to the fullest extent of the law but I'm having an issue with the murder charge and the resist charge too. The Felony speeding to elude causing death is the charge that was specifically written for circumstances such as this. The resist is the same factors that made the speeding to elude possible so isn't appropriate either.

Pulling a Mueller. Overcharging to induce a plea bargain.

 

[J R Green]

Pulling a Mueller. Overcharging to induce a plea bargain.

Maybe, but there are checks that are supposed to keep frivolous charges from being levied. I'm no fan of lawyer tricks either.

I hate the Trooper was killed and the defendant is culpable IMO but charge him for what he did, not what you want to punish him for.

 

[Cowboy]

This may be construed as heartless. However, I believe it makes a good point about bad policy:

"Mommy. How did Daddy die? Was he chasing a bad guy?"

"Yes he was dear. He was chasing a bad guy."

"What did the bad guy do Mommy?"

You can fill in the rest and you can also reverse the fictional conversation above and make it one from a non-leo family of a deceased family member(s) caught up in one of these circumstances.

How many of those conversations could have been like the one in Baltimore this week.
Daddy how did mommy die?

Doing paperwork sitting in her car.

What did she do to the person?
Nothing

The truth is you will never know why the person ran and only know that Trooper was doing his job. Doesn't matter that you agree with his job.
You could just as easily be explaining why daddy died at the tire plant because he fell off a ladder. When it's your time the maker will call you home.

 

[Qball]

How many of those conversations could have been like the one in Baltimore this week.
Daddy how did mommy die?

Doing paperwork sitting in her car.

What did she do to the person?
Nothing

The truth is you will never know why the person ran and only know that Trooper was doing his job. Doesn't matter that you agree with his job.
You could just as easily be explaining why daddy died at the tire plant because he fell off a ladder. When it's your time the maker will call you home.

Oh I don't disagree. My point was this: What if it was a kid panicking because he had smoked a joint earlier, or was out past his 9:00pm driver's license curfew, etc....?

I'm not blaming the trooper doing his job. I'm blaming the state, the law, policy of his employer, etc.... allowing him to get in a 4000 lb car and start a dangerous chase when it isn't necessary.

 

[J R Green]

Oh I don't disagree. My point was this: What if it was a kid panicking because he had smoked a joint earlier, or was out past his 9:00pm driver's license curfew, etc....?

I'm not blaming the trooper doing his job. I'm blaming the state, the law, policy of his employer, etc.... allowing him to get in a 4000 lb car and start a dangerous chase when it isn't necessary.

2 of the charges were fail to appear. So he knew he would be arrested when they stopped him and he had no intention of doing right by society.

 

[11B CIB]

2 of the charges were fail to appear. So he knew he would be arrested when they stopped him and he had no intention of doing right by society.

Just like the guy who ran into my wife and fled; failure to appear charges and active warrant (on top of DUS, DUI 2nd, Poss. of Cocaine charges) And I’m afraid the guy who hit my wife ( who is eluding the police as we speak ) will kill someone on the road, and soon. The same mentality: no intention of doing right by society. The guy left a woman and a small child in a smashed car in the middle of the road. You won’t convince me he will ever positively contribute to society

 

[Qball]

2 of the charges were fail to appear. So he knew he would be arrested when they stopped him and he had no intention of doing right by society.

Do you know if the trooper or the other trooper participating in that pursuit knew of those charges before they jumped in their cars and started a two car high speed chase?

I'm not defending the guy running and I'm certainly not blaming the trooper. I just can't see why it's that important to risk lives over any kind of traffic infraction. It doesn't make sense to me and never will.

Most, if not all, of these guys in LE driving these Chargers didn't grow up racing go carts at the age of three and moving on up to 900hp Sprint cars by the age of 14.

 

[Majicmike]

2 of the charges were fail to appear. So he knew he would be arrested when they stopped him and he had no intention of doing right by society.

And the trooper didn't know that at the time he started his pursuit. Sounds like a good reason to die to me.
I truly hate the young man lost his life along with the other 100 people who died in auto accidents around the US today.

 

[J R Green]

Regardless of how you, or I, may feel (I don't care for them either) about the checks they are legal and have been reaffirmed countless times. Evading a checkpoint is reasonable suspicion to stop the car. Again reaffirmed over and over.

Proverbs 28:1 The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.

 

[Qball]

To sum up my feelings on the matter: Unless there's bonafide proof that a mass murderer, terrorist, serial killer, the ghost of Hitler, etc..... is in the car, either let it go and allow people to live another day, or call in a chopper if you feel it's that important.

My posts here are not anti-leo at all. I really feel for this young man and his family. He was doing his job. Just like any job, there are procedures and policies in place to prevent certain incidents. Sometimes either the lack of a policy or procedure can cause problems, or an existing policy or procedure can cause problems..... Sometimes these problems can be fatal.

Unless there is information available that makes it obvious there is or are people in a vehicle that pose a threat to the public, then live, and allow others to live, another day.

 

[noway2]

2 of the charges were fail to appear. So he knew he would be arrested when they stopped him and he had no intention of doing right by society.

Your precious system didn’t do right by me or my family when a crook stole over a quarter million dollars of our money, so your “doing right by society” rings empty and hollow to me. Not only did they not do right, they didn't get off their collective ass and do shit.

 

[MostWanted]

Very tragic story. Trooper's family will miss him forever.

Mr. Whitt chose to drive after license revoked. He chose to run. He chose to continue the chase. If Mr. Whitt had caused the death of a third party during the chase, most of us would say a murder charge was reasonable. It's difficult for me to view his responsibility for the trooper's death any differently.

 

[Get Off My Lawn]

Because this threads idea wasn't intended for debating that, it was intended as somewhat if a memorial thing. Should have started a thread to debate the legality of what happened? /Shrug

All my fault. I missed that and had no intent to hijack the thread.

 

[Qball]

If Mr. Whitt had caused the death of a third party during the chase, most of us would say a murder charge was reasonable.

You can bet your life I would. Just like I would be demanding a murder charge against an LEO who killed one or more of my loved ones chasing someone over a revoked license or any other non-violent victimless crime.

 

[Cowboy]

You can bet your life I would. Just like I would be demanding a murder charge against an LEO who killed one or more of my loved ones chasing someone over a revoked license or any other non-violent victimless crime.

That has happened many times guess who gets charged? The person fleeing the arrest. We had a deputy turn around on a motorcycle who then took off, then a guy who was drunk pulled out in front of him. The drunk dead, the officer seriously injured and the motorcycle driver charged with murder. That's been about 6-7 years ago.

 

[OverMountainMan]

Speaking of motorcycles, has the officer who rammed the Harley rider (near Charleston?) last year been charged with murder? Probably not much hand-wringing here over a long-haired (probable) scofflaw.

The truth is you will never know why the person ran and only know that Trooper was doing his job. Doesn't matter that you agree with his job.

This is only true if you believe that anything his superiors (command and/or the politicians) tell him to do is "legal". It is assuredly NOT his job to violate his oath, but this is the problem America has, and will continue to have, regarding law enforcement: The doublespeak over where their loyalty resides. Does he answer to the populace? No. Does he answer to the law? Sometimes. Does he answer to his boss(es). Always.

This being a gun forum, we've all asked that rhetorical question: who will come to take our guns, when the tyrants deem them unlawful? The easy answer is that the State's enforcers will be tasked with that job. If you've deluded yourself that Officer Friendly would never do that, because he swore an oath to abide by, protect, and defend the US Constitution, here's your case study to the contrary.

The 4th Amendment is ~56 words, in one sentence. And it's pretty damn unambiguous. Yet, when it comes to Liberty, the 4th is relatively low-hanging fruit. So the State chips away at it to sharpen their little tyrant claws in preparation for the bigger prize(s). This trooper had no qualms about breaking his oath.

Would any of you feel any different about his demise, if he'd been speeding to your own personal residence to help kick in your doors to search for a shotgun stock that was 3/8" too short?

 

[Ikarus1]

maybe the protected class needs more protection if they're going to be driving outside the state's posted safety speed limit. I suggest a HANS device and perhaps a fuel cell and roll cage.

 

[Qball]

That has happened many times guess who gets charged? The person fleeing the arrest. We had a deputy turn around on a motorcycle who then took off, then a guy who was drunk pulled out in front of him. The drunk dead, the officer seriously injured and the motorcycle driver charged with murder. That's been about 6-7 years ago.

Well if the deputy wouldn't have taken his driving pursuit lessons from Mountaineer Racing School, none of that would have happened.

 

[Ikarus1]

@Qball don't you mean the Roscoe and Cletus Tactical Driving School of Tax Enforcement?

 

[Boosted89]

This happened in my hometown. While I didn't know either party I grew up pretty closely with a few of his fellow troopers. Its a tragedy and I hate it for all involved. That being said, my social media feeds have been chock full of disgusting posts calling for the death of the kid who ran, hoping the cops would shoot him when he was found, etc. It really opened my eyes to just how crazy and dangerous mob rule could potentially be. Hopefully a fair trial will ensure correct justice is served for both parties.

 

[NKD]

This happened in my hometown. While I didn't know either party I grew up pretty closely with a few of his fellow troopers. Its a tragedy and I hate it for all involved. That being said, my social media feeds have been chock full of disgusting posts calling for the death of the kid who ran, hoping the cops would shoot him when he was found, etc. It really opened my eyes to just how crazy and dangerous mob rule could potentially be. Hopefully a fair trial will ensure correct justice is served for both parties.

Was just reading about the officer falsely accused of rape during the DUI the other day. SJW calling for his murder, and for the murder of another cop who had similar name. Thousands of posts like like full of cries of "RACISM" hatred and violence, etc.
This is all before even a shred of evidence!! Mob gets angry and needs blood.

Of course a couple days later video of the whole incident comes out and it's all BS!

 

[Daedalus-NC]

There is a lot of trolling OPINION in this thread. Haters will be haters. Trump is right - animals

RIP Trooper

 

[noway2]

There is a lot of trolling OPINIONS in this thread. Haters will be haters. Trump is right - animals

RIP Trooper

Respectfully, I don't see anyone trolling or hating. I've seen expressions of sympathy for the lives lost and negatively impacted. I've seen opinions, backed with precedent and other ideals that say that these "checkpoints" are wrong and should not exist and claiming that some legislature or even a court says they are, doesn't gain them acceptance. Such is the state of our failing nation, whose days are likely numbered, and whose institutions are viewed with disgust rather than respect. I've seen derision of the policies and procedures that demand cops give chase and needlessly place themselves and others in grave and mortal danger so that they may try to maintain this air of invincibility, pride, or power. I see people recognizing that the decisions that led to this man's death and blame not being unilateral on the driver; as if the cops actions were inherently justified because they were not, but rather an unfortunate set of compounding policies and decisions.

The truth of the matter is that if they weren't engaging in these stupid checkpoints, which the people don't agree with, the man would be alive.

Call it hate, calling us animals, doesn't make it so.