Subpanel questions

BlackGun said:
you know that most jurisdictions are having up to 20 inspections per man per day
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(Snip). It’s been my experience, that contrary to, popular belief (and I am anti govt) hat the inspectors are not your enemy. I took over as the GC on my parents home (as a trustee, I was also a legal owner and could use the homeoner exemption) and he flagged a number of little things that I wouldn’t have thought of like the range needing a lock to keep it from tipping forward. Easy fixes. Be polite, and all is well.

when we put the kiln in at our house in high point, I pulled a permit. 60 amp circuit, not usual. I did the load calculations against the service and we were good to go. A friend / coworker helped with the work. The inspector came out and said this is a first, “ I can’t find anything to complain about, your husband does good work”.
 
BlackGun said:
Unless the house inspector they hire is an electrician they don’t know anything except what someone told them in classes. When a house was built it was on the codes of that era. If someone told me I had to separate all the wires and started quoting current code I would tell them I would at their expense. Too many people spend thousands after a house inspector writes a report. If it didn’t burn down under the old codes it is most likely ok. But there is always the home owners who had stuff added by some guy who does it without experience or permits.
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There are apparently far too many inspectors who don't understand the code...and this can't be entirely blamed on not hiring electricians, because I've run across an unacceptable number of electricians that don't, either.

I'm not an electrician. But this stuff isn't nuclear engineering (which I DO understand) and the basics are absolutely understandable. The details with the code, however, can be confusing, if only for the fact that there are so many.

As a side note on your comment "If it didn't burn down under the old codes is it most likely ok"...this is generally true IF things were built in accordance with those codes in the first place. I generally don't worry about that. Where people get into trouble is when they assume that just because it works, it's OK and safe.

A common example that I'm sure pretty much anybody who has worked on household electrical stuff for any length of time has encountered is a *&$^%# light switch that has been wired up to the neutral lead on a circuit. Everything powered off that circuit WILL work, but if you cut power with the light switch wired up this way to change that ceiling fan it goes to and trust that without verifying with a meter, you're gonna find out the hard way that there's STILL POWER TO THE $(*@##^% FAN.

(The lesson here, of course, is to use that frickin' meter like you're supposed to EVERY TIME.)
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
As a side note on your comment "If it didn't burn down under the old codes is it most likely ok"...this is generally true IF things were built in accordance with those codes in the first place.
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Liked knob and tube wiring. 18 gauge wire carrying far more current than is allowed today, wrapped in paper, placed through dry pine joists in ceramic tubes and clamped down with ceramic knobs. Hot and neutral (no ground) we’re kept a good distance apart (18” or so) and nothing was buried in insulation so heat dissipation wasn’t an issue. Did it work? Yes. Was it safe? Moderately and yes, by standards of the time. Would I want that in a modern insulated home? Hell no.
 
noway2 said:
Liked knob and tube wiring. 18 gauge wire carrying far more current than is allowed today, wrapped in paper, placed through dry pine joists in ceramic tubes and clamped down with ceramic knobs. Hot and neutral (no ground) we’re kept a good distance apart (18” or so) and nothing was buried in insulation so heat dissipation wasn’t an issue. Did it work? Yes. Was it safe? Moderately and yes, by standards of the time. Would I want that in a modern insulated home? Hell no.
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I've seen this before. You find it when remodeling old homes, of course, and it's generally retired in place...either long before by someone else, or when we get done remodeling.

Personally, I think people should just take the time and aggravation to pull all new wire in homes like this.
 
noway2 said:
Liked knob and tube wiring. 18 gauge wire carrying far more current than is allowed today, wrapped in paper, placed through dry pine joists in ceramic tubes and clamped down with ceramic knobs. Hot and neutral (no ground) we’re kept a good distance apart (18” or so) and nothing was buried in insulation so heat dissipation wasn’t an issue. Did it work? Yes. Was it safe? Moderately and yes, by standards of the time. Would I want that in a modern insulated home? Hell no.
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Haha. Forgot about knob and tube wiring. I would not sleep at night if I had knowledge of that running thru walls and attics. I still go into houses from as far back as 1910 with it. I’ve seen houses with a total of 4 screw in fuses as the entire electrical panel. And wood heat with no modern other heat source.
 
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BlackGun said:
Haha. Forgot about knob and tube wiring. I would not sleep at night if I had knowledge of that running thru walls and attics. I still go into houses from as far back as 1910 with it.
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Our first house dated to somewhere around 1930, with tumors of it having been built in 1910 and moved to that location at a later date. Someone had updated the fuse box to a Federal Pacific breaker fire starter box and it still had a really old Sq-D (XO I think) that I couldn’t get breakers for. A lot of, but not all, of the downstairs was migrated to romex, old romex black or metallic like sheathing. Much of the house was still knob and tube but yet it passed insurance inspection for updated wiring.

I replaced the rest of the knob and tube myself (A never again project). We had a little room off the kitchen that we used as a mud room. We were getting the house insulated and learned that the idiots who added it on put studs 24“ on center and simply slapped lap board siding without sheeting on the outside. Well, the room got gutted, had studs added and was insulated, re-sheetrock, new window, new doors (original was a true 2x4 (not 3-1/2) built in. Had an opportunity to get rid of some of the last knob and tube. Went up above the ceiling. Cut in through the outside of the house and ran the two circuits that way. Cut out the knob and tube that was in the now exposed wall. All was well or do I thought.

Came home from dinner. Living room lights no worky. Sh-t! One set was in a book case with a push button switch. Push it once, right one comes on, twice left one, three times both, four off. Well, I pressed once and got nothing. Figured I’d cycle it to off. Twice, left comes on. Third - hear a buzzing and see a bright white flash at the left light. Fourth time off. I have NO idea what shorted out at that light cause the bulb was good and thankfully no fire. The next day, I rewired the lights with Romex run down to the basement, but lost one light where the wire was buried in the plaster on the chimney.
 
Always test before working on the circuit. I was replacing the DW, breaker off, used my Klein test tool and it was hot! The disposal breaker cut the power to the DW.
Looks like they grabbed the wrong romex when hooking up the DW. I relabeled the breaker panel.
 
Button Pusher said:
Always test before working on the circuit. I was replacing the DW, breaker off, used my Klein test tool and it was hot! The disposal breaker cut the power to the DW.
Looks like they grabbed the wrong romex when hooking up the DW. I relabeled the breaker panel.
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I rarely go to a house that has correct labeling in the panel. Businesses are much worse. But convenience stores are the scariest electrical systems known to mankind. Imagine what 70 years of adding circuits, repairs, new equipment, couple hundred service guys hands in panels and raceways looks like. There is nothing comparable to convenience store electrical and equipment.
 
BlackGun said:
I rarely go to a house that has correct labeling in the panel. Businesses are much worse. But convenience stores are the scariest electrical systems known to mankind. Imagine what 70 years of adding circuits, repairs, new equipment, couple hundred service guys hands in panels and raceways looks like. There is nothing comparable to convenience store electrical and equipment.
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Made worse when it's run by that random dude from Brazil who knows just enough about electricity to make things work in potentially deadly fashion. You know the guy I mean ... the one from a country whose readily-accessible wiring tends to look like this:
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A century and more ago, things were anything BUT what we consider "standards" today. Studs 24" on center were common in those days. Lumber dimensions were all over the place. Siding thickness on a house pretty much anything...even calling it "3/4 inch thick" didn't really mean anything because there were no standards on what that actually meant in the industry. (Wood thickness being a combination of whatever the mills turned out plus variations due to moisture content of the wood at the time it was cut.)

Electricity? If you think people are brainless today about it, you have NO IDEA how clueless people were a century ago. There was absolutely NO CONCEPT of what it meant to draw too much current and the dangers behind it, to start with. If a fuse blew...just replace it. If it kept blowing...put a penny in there. The number of circuits in a house was very limited in most cases and people gleefully put those screw-in receptacles in light sockets to power anything and everything.

Not to mention that insulation was either literally non-existent (wiring inside the walls back in the days of knob and tube wiring was usually bare wire) or simply didn't have the ability to stand the test of time, becoming brittle and cracking off.
 
BlackGun said:
Unless the house inspector they hire is an electrician they don’t know anything except what someone told them in classes. When a house was built it was on the codes of that era. If someone told me I had to separate all the wires and started quoting current code I would tell them I would at their expense. Too many people spend thousands after a house inspector writes a report. If it didn’t burn down under the old codes it is most likely ok. But there is always the home owners who had stuff added by some guy who does it without experience or permits.
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When we bought our current house in the fall of 2021 we paid an inspector like all purchasers should. After we moved in I found that in the cabinet over the stove, above the microwave is an outlet that the microwave plugs into. When the cabinets were hung they didn't get the hole in the cabinet for the outlet in exactly the right place so there was no way to get a cover plate installed on the outlet. Microwave plugged in to the outlet, no cover plate.

No mention of this in the inspector's report. I fixed it.

.
 
One of my favorite sites to learn things, Joe was in a hotel in Mexico for a convention, the breaker panels were overloaded with tandem breakers in each space.☹️ He stayed in another hotel.

 
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Button Pusher said:
Always test before working on the circuit. I was replacing the DW, breaker off, used my Klein test tool and it was hot! The disposal breaker cut the power to the DW.
Looks like they grabbed the wrong romex when hooking up the DW. I relabeled the breaker panel.
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You ain't kidding, this house we bought and live in now, is just add-on after add-on, Outside service panel
has 6 breakers, 1-220v, 5-110v none..repeat none marked. now it feeds into the main panel inside, with
either no labeling or cryptic labeling like "Wifi" on 20-amp breaker, "Sunbed" on 20-amp, "Fish tank" on
20-amp, and what exactly is "Room", nothing repeat nothing that says Hot Water heater even though there
are 3-220v not labeled, no "Garage", and this place also has an irrigation system, well, pump, pipe out the
ground, wire, etc. but someone cut the pipe from the casing to the "bladder tank" ?? it has 3 electrical boxes
associated with it??? don't ask me where the breakers are. Electricians were out the other day one bedroom
breaker is in the outside service panel?? don't ask.. so with that and my limited mobility right now, I'm gonna
try and test / search for the circuits / breakers, got the tools so need to get to work.. did check one thing the
garage outlets show "open grounds" every last one of them. Some shade tree wiring here..aint home ownership
just lovely...
Sorry off topic post... but we are planning on installing one in the garage..."maybe"
-Snoopz
 
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Snoopz said:
You ain't kidding, this house we bought and live in now, is just add-on after add-on, Outside service panel
has 6 breakers, 1-220v, 5-110v none..repeat none marked. now it feeds into the main panel inside, with
either no labeling or cryptic labeling like "Wifi" on 20-amp breaker, "Sunbed" on 20-amp, "Fish tank" on
20-amp, and what exactly is "Room", nothing repeat nothing that says Hot Water heater even though there
are 3-220v not labeled, no "Garage", and this place also has an irrigation system, well, pump, pipe out the
ground, wire, etc. but someone cut the pipe from the casing to the "bladder tank" ?? it has 3 electrical boxes
associated with it??? don't ask me where the breakers are. Electricians were out the other day one bedroom
breaker is in the outside service panel?? don't ask.. so with that and my limited mobility right now, I'm gonna
try and test / search for the circuits / breakers, got the tools so need to get to work.. did check one thing the
garage outlets show "open grounds" every last one of them. Some shade tree wiring here..aint home ownership
just lovely...
Sorry off topic post... but we are planning on installing one in the garage..."maybe"
-Snoopz
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This is why you pony up for the inspection during due diligence.
 
Catfish said:
This is why you pony up for the inspection during due diligence.
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Yep..paid for all that . Whole house inspection.
Seller was willing to work with us.



First house we nick named the "Sparky House" needed
$11k ÷ . In electrical work ..seller wouldn't move. So bye
bye..

Anyway.. we knew it needed some stuff going in. It took
us a little over a year to get semi. Sorta moved in.

-Snoopz
 
BlackGun said:
Not much chance an inspector finds that with insulation under the floor. And it takes many years to show signs.
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Good point. Just kind of pisses me off that the plumber is under the house for another reason and comes out and says you've got a bigger problem.

We intended to renovate the kitchen and the rest of the house later. Now we're just going to do all at once.
 
noway2 said:
Good point. Just kind of pisses me off that the plumber is under the house for another reason and comes out and says you've got a bigger problem.

We intended to renovate the kitchen and the rest of the house later. Now we're just going to do all at once.
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Pretty much had your situation with how our tiled shower was built. Now problem for us though after 15 years as it was above my head when laying on the sofa. I could here an occasional drip in the living room ceiling. $12k later it’s all good. As with most wives it was not good enough to just fix the shower. The entire bathroom must be torn out and redone.
 
One thing I wish I had mentioned in this thread. If you are doing residential wiring for a branch circuit you should be referencing the 60° column on the NEC tables. NM-B is romex, and because it is in the sheathing you use this table. I am not talking about feeders from panel to panel. Those come off another table. Just remember sheath cable is very different than loose wire run in a metal or plastic conduit. Doesn’t matter the the temperature rating of the terminated lug on branch circuits.
 
BlackGun said:
Haha. Forgot about knob and tube wiring. I would not sleep at night if I had knowledge of that running thru walls and attics. I still go into houses from as far back as 1910 with it. I’ve seen houses with a total of 4 screw in fuses as the entire electrical panel. And wood heat with no modern other heat source.
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Seen them. I lived in one when I first got married.
 
When we sold a house in Virginia the buyer's inspection reported that several outlets had neutral and hot reversed. I checked them, and the wiring at the outlet was correct.
But they were all on the same circuit, one of them was a bathroom outlet, and I knew they were fed from one of two ground-fault breakers in the panel. So I checked the panel,
and sure enough, hot and neutral were swapped at the breaker. There were two ground-fault breakers, one on the left side of the panel and the other on the right side. Of
course, the left breaker was upside down in relation to the right breaker. The electrician, however, had wired them both the same, with the hot wire at the top, and the neutral
wire at the bottom (or vice-versa, I don't recall) so neutral and hot were correct on one breaker, and reversed on the other. I pulled the breaker, corrected the wiring, and
told my real estate agent that the problem was fixed. She said it had to be done by a licensed electrician. "Should I put it back the way it was, then get an electrician to redo
what I just did?" Fortunately she had an electrician who came by, inspected the panel, and gave her a report that the problem was corrected (didn't say who did it), and all was
well.

But since I was a "safety guy" for an insurance company, I couldn't ignore the other ground-fault breaker, which protected the outdoor outlets. Pressing the test button, I found that
it didn't trip. It wouldn't trip when I used an outlet tester on one of the outlets, either. So I bought and installed a replacement (didn't tell the real estate agent, though).
 
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Pack72 said:
When we sold a house in Virginia the buyer's inspection reported that several outlets had neutral and hot reversed. I checked them, and the wiring at the outlet was correct.
But they were all on the same circuit, one of them was a bathroom outlet, and I knew they were fed from one of two ground-fault breakers in the panel. So I checked the panel,
and sure enough, hot and neutral were swapped at the breaker. There were two ground-fault breakers, one on the left side of the panel and the other on the right side. Of
course, the left breaker was upside down in relation to the right breaker. The electrician, however, had wired them both the same, with the hot wire at the top, and the neutral
wire at the bottom (or vice-versa, I don't recall) so neutral and hot were correct on one breaker, and reversed on the other. I pulled the breaker, corrected the wiring, and
told my real estate agent that the problem was fixed. She said it had to be done by a licensed electrician. "Should I put it back the way it was, then get an electrician to redo
what I just did?" Fortunately she had an electrician who came by, inspected the panel, and gave her a report that the problem was corrected (didn't say who did it), and all was
well.

But since I was a "safety guy" for an insurance company, I couldn't ignore the other ground-fault breaker, which protected the outdoor outlets. Pressing the test button, I found that
it didn't trip. It wouldn't trip when I used an outlet tester on one of the outlets, either. So I bought and installed a replacement (didn't tell the real estate agent, though).
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There are a lot of very simple mistakes that even electricians occasionally screw up and commit.
 
What is the deal with the Canadian electricians that install panels horizontally?
5eb468df150b8_hutt-pic-1.png
 
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