1911's Galore

Murtaugh said:
This is the reason why "capacity" and carrying a spare magazine are good things and why none of the rest matter.
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I believe in carrying a spare, and sometimes do, but some of the levels of "strapped" I've seen is a caution.

Hi-cap pistol and two or three spare magazines, a BUG, and a folding fighter just in case you run out of ammo and have to go hand to hand is a bit...much. Besides, after a certain age range, your back starts to protest.

And he'll make quite a clatter when he hits the ground after a meth head clocks him with a wine bottle in the checkout line down at the local Piggly Wiggly and makes off with his hardware. (And if you don't think those people can spot your Roscoe, you're mistaken.)

These days I carry a revolver in an unconventional manner, keep my head on a swivel so I can lessen the chances I'll have to use it, and maintain a firm plan to unass the AO at the first opportunity.

Walter Mitty notwithstanding.
 
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I have not heard "unass the AO" in quite a while. Ah, memories of decades ago when I was young and training to go fight in the jungles. I am glad I never had to go.

Large capacity is great and all that, but I think I would rather have a lower capacity handgun I shoot well than a greater capacity handgun I shoot poorly.
 
Luckily I shoot my 16 round handgun as good as any other.

I don't carry a knife of any kind but there have been many more occasions where having one would have been useful (cutting/opening stuff - not knife fighting) than there were occasions where the tactically aware meth heads were making the grocery store unsafe. Maybe this is more of an issue on the hard side of town.
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
Yessir. There is an abundance of data. NYPD had thousands of pieces of info to go on. They kept strict records through the late 80s. See Clint Smith on YT talk about "how many times will you shoot". Very enlightening. The jist is......all you have. Watch Clint it is a good source for this topic.
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KH explained it this way. There are two different scenarios where a gun is used to shoot another human being. First there is a shooting where only one person has a gun. The number of rounds shot is between 1-3. Then there is a gun fight where more than one person has a gun and is shooting. The number of rounds fired is until all the guns are empty.

To me the biggest advantage of carrying a second magazine is not about capacity but it that a spare mag will help you clear a double feed. Having a second mag in a known location is going to allow you to drop the mag rack the slide clearing the malfunction without having to capture or recover the first mag. This also have a very small window of probability but IMHO more likely than me surviving a 30+ rounds gunfight.


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Discussions on “how much ammo you should carry” always irritate me a bit. When it’s all said and done we are personally the arbiters of our own fate. I don’t have a right to tell someone else what is, and is not, appropriate for them. If someone feels more comfortable carrying a high capacity side arm with 2/3/4 spare mags then good for them. If someone is of the belief that their 5 shot pocket revolver is plenty, then good for them.

We all carry what we carry for a reason, those reasons may change over time. It’s our job/duty as responsible gun owners and defenders of our families to consider all of the options and reasons and then choose appropriately.


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B00ger said:
Discussions on “how much ammo you should carry” always irritate me a bit. When it’s all said and done we are personally the arbiters of our own fate. I don’t have a right to tell someone else what is, and is not, appropriate for them. If someone feels more comfortable carrying a high capacity side arm with 2/3/4 spare mags then good for them. If someone is of the belief that their 5 shot pocket revolver is plenty, then good for them.

We all carry what we carry for a reason, those reasons may change over time. It’s our job/duty as responsible gun owners and defenders of our families to consider all of the options and reasons and then choose appropriately.
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I agree. I just don't see how my ugly plastic gun with 2 magazines and 31 rounds that is the same weight/volume as another's romantic shiny trinket from the past with 9 rounds is a questionable decision.

You won't see me running around making fun of people that carry 5 shot J frames with no reloads or backups. I should...but you won't see me doing it.
 
Murtaugh said:
I agree. I just don't see how my ugly plastic gun with 2 magazines and 31 rounds that is the same weight/volume as another's romantic shiny trinket from the past with 9 rounds is a questionable decision.

You won't see me running around making fun of people that carry 5 shot J frames with no reloads or backups. I should...but you won't see me doing it.
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(I'm sorry, but I must)
On the other side of that argument there's an old saying that many 1911 and Garand owners love, "Beware the man with only eight rounds. He likely knows how to put them to proper use".

Note: even though I own and shoot both a 1911 and a Garand, the above quote does not in any way indicate my opinion of my own skill. 😕 Especially since my ammo budget went to 💩 in the wake of covid shutdowns.

But anyway, folks whine, moan, and posture all the damn time over whose scheme or tool is the best, but it comes down to when/if the time comes "the best" isn't going matter one whit, because you're going to have whatever is at hand. And suddenly THAT is going to be "the best (all) you've got" and you'd better be thinking and prepared for how to put THAT to good use.
 
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Detritus said:
(I'm sorry, but I must)
On the other side of that argument there's an old saying that many 1911 and Garand owners love, "Beware the man with only eight rounds. He likely knows how to put them to proper use".

Note: even though I own and shoot both a 1911 and a Garand, the above quote does not in any way indicate my opinion of my own skill. [emoji53] Especially since my ammo budget went to [emoji90] in the wake of covid shutdowns.

But anyway, folks whine, moan, and posture all the damn time over whose scheme or tool is the best, but it comes down to when/if the time comes "the best" isn't going matter one whit, because you're going to have whatever is at hand. And suddenly THAT is going to be "the best (all) you've got" and you'd better be thinking and prepared for how to put THAT to good use.
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I don’t think most here would disagree. After some experience with both a 1911 and a Garand, I feel completely armed with either against pretty much any other firearm. It all does, in the end, come down to competence and training, and a bit of luck. I’ll never scoff at a man with the yankee fist as his sidearm, or at the man with the Austrian wunderplasticks either.


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Detritus said:
(I'm sorry, but I must)
On the other side of that argument there's an old saying that many 1911 and Garand owners love, "Beware the man with only eight rounds. He likely knows how to put them to proper use".

Note: even though I own and shoot both a 1911 and a Garand, the above quote does not in any way indicate my opinion of my own skill. 😕 Especially since my ammo budget went to 💩 in the wake of covid shutdowns.

But anyway, folks whine, moan, and posture all the damn time over whose scheme or tool is the best, but it comes down to when/if the time comes "the best" isn't going matter one whit, because you're going to have whatever is at hand. And suddenly THAT is going to be "the best (all) you've got" and you'd better be thinking and prepared for how to put THAT to good use.
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(no problem :))

I beware of anybody that has any number of rounds but I don't find myself being a noticeably worse shot than any 1911 guys I run across. But just because I have 16-31 (33 sometimes) rounds I don't see why people assume I am going to spray and pray. I can shoot the first 8 rounds out of my Glock just as accurately as I can the 8 rounds out of my 1911 (yes, I have that one too).

That said, even though I will beware the J frame guy because he might get lucky...I don't worry about him as much as the 1911 guy or most others for that matter.
 
Statistics say you'll not likely get in a SD situation where you need more than 5. I believe records show 3 is the magic number. I carry 8, sometimes, 15. As long as I carry more than 5 the actuary is on my side.

Carry what gun you want with how much ammo you want.*

*This is different than the axiom of combat that says you never have enough.
 
There is a 49ish% chance that your self defense encounter will require more rounds than the average. You have a 47ish % chance of hitting red on the roulette wheel.

Deep thoughts.
 
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Otis said:
There is a 49ish% chance that your self defense encounter will require more rounds than the average.
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And there's about a 90ish% chance that your encounter will involve backing up rapidly while fending off a blunt or edged weapon attack with one hand and frantically clawing for your gun with the other, praying that you can get it into the fight before you're brained or gutted.
 
John Travis said:
And there's about a 90ish% chance that your encounter will involve backing up rapidly while fending off a blunt or edged weapon attack with one hand and frantically clawing for your gun with the other, praying that you can get it into the fight before you're brained or gutted.
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Maybe, but since that seems to cover 9 out of 10 encounters then we probably can't conclude it affects the round count in a meaningful way.
 
Murtaugh said:
I agree. I just don't see how my ugly plastic gun with 2 magazines and 31 rounds that is the same weight/volume as another's romantic shiny trinket from the past with 9 rounds is a questionable decision.

You won't see me running around making fun of people that carry 5 shot J frames with no reloads or backups. I should...but you won't see me doing it.
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You just did. Weak.
 
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Back in the olden days I dabbled a bit with statistics and quickly saw that past performance can give an idea of what might happen in the future but does not dictate what will happen at any given time. We never know how each encounter will occur. We can prepare for the average or for a situation a whole lot worse than average but can never be completely prepared for all possibilities. We can drive around with full body armor in a tank with Claymores and guns galore, but some guy will show up with a L.A.W.

I generally try to balance what I can carry conveniently with the probabilities of needing to use force in a particular situation. I try my best to stay out of areas in which that probability is high, but no place is safe these days. My wife can neither run nor hide, and I am certainly not going to abandon her while there is still life in my body. I generally carry a J-frame in my front right pocket when I am out by myself but add a 365 or a 1911 on my left hip when I am out with her. I also have an autoloading 40 easily reachable in the car I use to drive her. A Mini 14 goes into the car when the crazies are making news. I will increase the size and number if things get really crazy and I absolutely have to leave home.
 
Otis said:
Maybe, but since that seems to cover 9 out of 10 encounters then we probably can't conclude it affects the round count in a meaningful way.
Maybe not, but we can conclude that there's a 90% chance that you'll either handle that particular problem with the ammunition in the gun, or you'll lose the fight.

The point being that about 99.9% of all shootings involving private citizens don't involve running gunfights.
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John Travis said:
Maybe not, but we can conclude that there's a 90% chance that you'll either handle that particular problem with the ammunition in the gun, or you'll lose the fight.

The point being that about 99.9% of all shootings involving private citizens don't involve running gunfights.
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I would have to see the actual population to come to the same conclusion. Luckily it is easy enough to just carry another magazine and not worry too much about the accuracy or specifics of the data.
 
I think that’s a bit of as well. We are talking about a few extra ounces of weight. No big deal to toss and extra magazine in a pocket or on a belt clip. It isnt like it weights a hundred pounds.


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B00ger said:
I think that’s a bit of as well. We are talking about a few extra ounces of weight. No big deal to toss and extra magazine in a pocket or on a belt clip. It isnt like it weights a hundred pounds.


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I do not disagree; I think people should carry what makes them feel comfortably safe.

My question, and hard to answer, is at what point does it cross from 'just being safe' to paranoia? Two mags? Three? Two guns and four mags?

I expect like what Justice Potter Stewart said in 1964 regarding obscenity, I'll know it when I see it.
 
Otis said:
I would have to see the actual population to come to the same conclusion
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Statistically, 99.9% of us will carry a gun all our adult lives and never be involved in any sort of a shooting at all, and for the preponderance of those who are, the matter is generally concluded in a few seconds. If protracted gunfights between private citizens were common, the details would be plastered on the front pages of every newspaper in the country.

Hell, the Gunfight at the OK Corral only lasted about half a minute.
 
John Travis said:
Statistically, 99.9% of us will carry a gun all our adult lives and never be involved in any sort of a shooting at all, and for the preponderance of those who are, the matter is generally concluded in a few seconds. If protracted gunfights between private citizens were common, the details would be plastered on the front pages of every newspaper in the country.

Hell, the Gunfight at the OK Corral only lasted about half a minute.
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As long as you have a chance at being the.1%, who cares what the statistics are?
 
Otis said:
As long as you have a chance at being the.1%, who cares what the statistics are?
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Probability and risk matrices abound, and one can go to the extremes: most of us have fire extinguishers in our house, but our car? Our EDC bag? The Triangle has bears, but do you (not 'you' you but the royal 'you') prep for getting away from a bear?

At a point prepping for the 1% borders on paranoia.

Regarding carrying, I simply carry because I can. But I'm comfortable not carrying, too, because of the .1%.
 
Chuckman said:
Probability and risk matrices abound, and one can go to the extremes: most of us have fire extinguishers in our house, but our car? Our EDC bag? The Triangle has bears, but do you (not 'you' you but the royal 'you') prep for getting away from a bear?

At a point prepping for the 1% borders on paranoia.

Regarding carrying, I simply carry because I can. But I'm comfortable not carrying, too, because of the .
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I don't understand the need to differentiate between carrying because you can vs because you might need it. If there was no chance I was going to need a gun I wouldn't carry one just because I can. If there was no chance my house would burn down or blow away in a tornado then I wouldn't have homeowners insurance just because I can.

I get your point about the bears and while bears have never crossed my mind, 9mm kills a lot of bears.
 
Otis said:
I don't understand the need to differentiate between carrying because you can vs because you might need it. If there was no chance I was going to need a gun I wouldn't carry one just because I can. If there was no chance my house would burn down or blow away in a tornado then I wouldn't have homeowners insurance just because I can.

I get your point about the bears and while bears have never crossed my mind, 9mm kills a lot of bears.
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Probability is never 0. There's always a chance. The argument in any actuarial argument is, what is the chance? I mean, there's a chance you'll be struck by lightning, hit by a meteor, etc.

If one carries because of a high chance or a low chance that's fine with me. I don't care about the why. But if you carry because of concern there's a .1% chance, statistics show you're carrying a paper weight.
 
Chuckman said:
Probability is never 0. There's always a chance. The argument in any actuarial argument is, what is the chance? I mean, there's a chance you'll be struck by lightning, hit by a meteor, etc.

If one carries because of a high chance or a low chance that's fine with me. I don't care about the why. But if you carry because of concern there's a .1% chance, statistics show you're carrying a paper weight.
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I never said I agreed with the statistic and clearly said I would need to see the data to agree with it but basically don't care about the statistics...I just acknowledge there is a chance...similar to what you are saying.

All of this word salad aside, is it a good idea to carry a gun or not?
 
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Otis said:
I never said I agreed with the statistic and clearly said I would need to see the data to agree with it but basically don't care about the statistics...I just acknowledge there is a chance...similar to what you are saying.

All of this word salad aside, is it a good idea to carry a gun or not?
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It does sound like I'm arguing; I'm not. I think we're aligned in our thinking.

I don't know that it's a good idea. I don't know if it's a bad idea. Whether it's a good idea is dependant on the situation, and one's perspective. I do know I can, so I do.
 
I carry a gun because I >have< been in a situation where I didn’t have one and needed it. I won’t do that again. Statistics or not.


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Fwiw I've been in 1 situation where i needed a gun. A homeless guy pulled a knife on me and i pulled out a glock 17 and he retreated. No rounds fired. I didn't even point it at him, just showed him what i had. If it had been a 5 shot j frame, i believe he would have ran just the same. I had no spare mags and he had a knife... on that day i won. If he had a gun as well, it might have gone differently. I carry what im comfortable with and pray if the time comes i can do what i need to to do to stay alive.
 
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B00ger said:
I carry a gun because I >have< been in a situation where I didn’t have one and needed it. I won’t do that again. Statistics or not.


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Same here.... When I travel, I always take at least two....
 
I've lost two friends over my lifetime that were killed by gunfire.... each from a single round of .22....... Placement is everything, not quantity or caliber.
 
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MDO said:
I've lost two friends over my lifetime that were killed by gunfire.... each from a single round of .22....... Placement is everything, not quantity or caliber.
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First, I am sorry to hear that about your friends. That's very tragic.

Second, placement > caliber, definitely. Unless of course we're talking .50 cal and bigger. Those are game changers.
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
1st...all knowledge does Not flow from This fountain....
2nd..I always carry 2..usually of the same kind..NOT for capacity...in the 1980s Evan Marshall convinced me if I even Thought I needed one...Take Two.
3rd..We must all seek our own salvation.....Jim Higginbothom
4th.. I am asked often..If you KNEW you would need a gun before you made it back to the highway, what would be your choice..my answer is, I wouldn't go.
5th...A little paranoia is a good thing....Jeff Cooper
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On #3, I agree. I had come to the conclusion years ago it is a good idea to carry so it looks like I am in the camp with you, murtauh, and booger.

On #2, while both are very rare, I have many times more magazine/feed issues than I do broken guns so I lean towards a gun and a magazine vs 2 guns but like you noticed in the other thread you have inspired me to experiment with 2 again. I even practice my new York reload some but think I might be ingraining some bad habits trying to hit the bed or a coat/blanket at the range with the drop gun. 😁
 
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