1911's Galore

GET YERSELF A GLOCK. Get rid of that NICKEL PLATED SISSY PISTOL.

I've been shot a couple times by 1911's and it's no biggie. Doesn't even hardly hurt.

 
CZfool68 said:
Not your bad. I am just amused that 1911’s don‘t have enough capacity arguments, but 5 shot 38 Special revolvers and the like are all well accepted. Or Sig 938’s. It makes me laugh. Carry what works for you. I don’t really carry 1911’s but will/would in certain situations. I carry several different guns on/off body depending what works in a given situation. Everybody has different needs and situations. I carry different guns at work than I do at home or at our mountain place on a walk. Not really any one gun is perfect for every time and place. At least for me.

And who was it that said a 1911 was like a SA revolver? I want some of what you were smoking. 👻
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To address the "5 shot .38 special" being accepted. I think a fair comparison of apples to apples needs to be made. We are comparing .45 1911 single stacks to other similar sized EDC pistols...Glock 19/CZ-P07/MP9s/etc. The .38 special 5 shooters fall more in line with the pocket pistol/mousegun category of comparison. And if we look to that market, there are plenty that will argue that even a single stack LCP or Glock 42/43 are preferable to a small J-frame.
 
B00ger said:
To address the "5 shot .38 special" being accepted. I think a fair comparison of apples to apples needs to be made. We are comparing .45 1911 single stacks to other similar sized EDC pistols...Glock 19/CZ-P07/MP9s/etc. The .38 special 5 shooters fall more in line with the pocket pistol/mousegun category of comparison. And if we look to that market, there are plenty that will argue that even a single stack LCP or Glock 42/43 are preferable to a small J-frame.
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.....but then we could compare all that to the "modern micro 9mm" and then we are left with a similar situation.


Excepting the ultra tiny tiny .380's, the new higher cap micro 9mm's are a ridiculously small option for that amount of 9mm
 
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Desolo said:
.....but then we could compare all that to the "modern micro 9mm" and then we are left with a similar situation.


Excepting the ultra tiny tiny .380's, the new higher cap micro 9mm's are a ridiculously small option for that amount of 9mm
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We are not in disagreement. That is my point.
 
B00ger said:
To address the "5 shot .38 special" being accepted. I think a fair comparison of apples to apples needs to be made. We are comparing .45 1911 single stacks to other similar sized EDC pistols...Glock 19/CZ-P07/MP9s/etc. The .38 special 5 shooters fall more in line with the pocket pistol/mousegun category of comparison. And if we look to that market, there are plenty that will argue that even a single stack LCP or Glock 42/43 are preferable to a small J-frame.
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I thought we were discussing all guns that could be carried. Not cherry picking It to suit an argument. And since we all have different jobs, lifestyles, clothes and such we all can carry differently. Some people can easily carry a 5” 1911 or other large gun. Some of us are forced to compromise and carry very small guns.

But since we’re on the interwebz we can argue about a Hi-Point or SCCY being greater than any 1911 I guess since it’s modern and all. 😁
 
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CZfool68 said:
Does anyone know how many shots are fired in the average/median/typical self defense situation? Is there any actual data on self defense shootings with regards to shots, distances and time? Or do we just base everything on square range training and competition? I am not a police officer or military ninja so will likely not be in any John Wick like movie scenarios. If I don’t frequent Baltimore/Chicago/Detroit on a weekend night at 2 am what do I really need to expect in a bad situation?
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I 'think' I had read 3 shots is the average SD engagement. I don't remember when or where I read that, I will see if I can find it.

I will say if you (not you, @CZfool68 , the royal 'you') need 15 shots in a SD situation you got bigger problems than mag capacity. Your 'marksmanship' and tactics suck.

Edited to add, I did find this, citing 3 rounds from FBI data: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/the-statistically-perfect-gunfight/#:~:text=FBI stats say the average,rounds to stop the attacker.

This is also...revealing: https://www.tierthreetactical.com/1...ats-backed-by-data-and-real-world-experience/
 
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Chuckman said:
I 'think' I had read 3 shots is the average SD engagement. I don't remember when or where I read that, I will see if I can find it.

I will say if you (not you, @CZfool68 , the royal 'you') need 15 shots in a SD situation you got bigger problems than mag capacity. You 'marksmanship' and tactics suck.

Edited to add, I did find this, citing 3 rounds from FBI data: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/the-statistically-perfect-gunfight/#:~:text=FBI stats say the average,rounds to stop the attacker.
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Yes, if I need 15 shots I probably need a rifle too. I guess I could dream up a situation in my normal life that could happen where I needed 15, but the odds re really small. Probably smaller than the odds of dying from Covid. 😆
 
CZfool68 said:
I thought we were discussing all guns that could be carried. Not cherry picking It to suit an argument. And since we all have different jobs, lifestyles, clothes and such we all can carry differently. Some people can easily carry a 5” 1911 or other large gun. Some of us are forced to compromise and carry very small guns.

But since we’re on the interwebz we can argue about a Hi-Point or SCCY being greater than any 1911 I guess since it’s modern and all. 😁
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Then we were discussing two different things. Comparing a full sized pistol to a pocket pistol is two different things in my opinion. I don't think we would have much of an argument if it were "Is there something better to carry than a 5 round revolver" the answer would be "Absolutely." But if the question is "Is a 5 shot pocket revolver good for pocket carry" then the answer can be "yes".
 
CZfool68 said:
Does anyone know how many shots are fired in the average/median/typical self defense situation? Is there any actual data on self defense shootings with regards to shots, distances and time?
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Yessir. There is an abundance of data. NYPD had thousands of pieces of info to go on. They kept strict records through the late 80s. See Clint Smith on YT talk about "how many times will you shoot". Very enlightening. The jist is......all you have. Watch Clint it is a good source for this topic.
 
Chuckman said:
I 'think' I had read 3 shots is the average SD engagement. I don't remember when or where I read that, I will see if I can find it.

I will say if you (not you, @CZfool68 , the royal 'you') need 15 shots in a SD situation you got bigger problems than mag capacity. Your 'marksmanship' and tactics suck.

Edited to add, I did find this, citing 3 rounds from FBI data: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/the-statistically-perfect-gunfight/#:~:text=FBI stats say the average,rounds to stop the attacker.

This is also...revealing: https://www.tierthreetactical.com/1...ats-backed-by-data-and-real-world-experience/
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Yeah, I remember 3/3/3 from some article or discussion. 3 shots, 3 seconds, and 3 yards (could’ve been feet, not sure) for for average SD situation.
 
MacEntyre said:
Wall, now I is confused... is it three, or all you got?
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With cops, it’s definitely all you got!! 🤣

I think Billy may have posted the data one time. It was a trend chart and story about how the average number of rounds fired increased from ~6 to ~15. The root cause (or just pure coincidence 🙄) was they moved from revolvers to semi-autos. Either firearm, they emptied it.

Self-defense/home-defense scenarios are different. Usually less shots fired and a shorter duration.
 
I carry a G19 as my edc and a spare magazine, I believe it was Clint Smith that once said “you’ve never heard a person say, I wish I didn’t have all this ammo on me in this gunfight, but we’ve all heard people wishing they had more”
 
I took my Springfield Armory 1911 Loaded that had a little cleanup from TommyGuns through a SWAT school. Ran like a champ. I had to carry a few extra WC mags with me to do a lot of the run and gun portions, and a lot of the jeering was from several mag changes which I was good at in that pistol. The instructor said, yeah, but he shot every target in the head with a 230 gn bullet. Every target was dead on that shot. I ended up changing it out for a G22 at that time because of needing a light rail, and the PD was buying .40 in bulk. I carry it to the gun store a lot or my G19, but I certainly don't feel undergunned with it.
 
Sneakymedic said:
I took my Springfield Armory 1911 Loaded that had a little cleanup from TommyGuns through a SWAT school. Ran like a champ. I had to carry a few extra WC mags with me to do a lot of the run and gun portions, and a lot of the jeering was from several mag changes which I was good at in that pistol. The instructor said, yeah, but he shot every target in the head with a 230 gn bullet. Every target was dead on that shot. I ended up changing it out for a G22 at that time because of needing a light rail, and the PD was buying .40 in bulk. I carry it to the gun store a lot or my G19, but I certainly don't feel undergunned with it.
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I ran 1911s in several Vickers' classes. Worked for me.
 
All this 1911 talk prompted me to take a couple of 1911's to the range today. I took my newest Colt and the AMT. I was a little unsure about taking the AMT. The last time I took the AMT and a Colt, I ended up selling the Colt because the AMT shot circles around it...and it was a Gold Cup.

Well, today was a better day. I shot a few magazines through the AMT and it didn't disappoint. Then, I grabbed the Colt and it did a fine job, too. I shot 100 rounds through each gun plus 2 magazines through my Glock 43 carry gun. It was a pleasure to shoot the 1911's. No failures with either gun.
 
Amp Mangum said:
All of my 1911s (and I have a few) are very reliable and they work for me. Pick a pistol that you shoot well, chambered in a serious caliber, practice with it and carry it.

What works for me might not work for you and vice versus.
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Me too. I've owned a bunch of 1911s and they all worked, even the first, a series 70 purchased new in 1973. I say 'even the series 70' because that was from the era when all of the pistoleros said that no Colt worked 100% out of the box. I never got the 'all 1911s have to be tuned to work' thing. Never my experience.
 
wheelgun_man said:
Be sure to check out the 1911 links below! Particularly M.T. “Lone Wolf” Gonzaullas’ custom pair. Both had cut-away trigger guards AND the grip safety was locked in the “fire” position 😱😱😱. He lived to be 86 and clanked every step he took!
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Fitz must have worked on 1911s as well as revolvers.
 
I get wanting to carry a 1911. It's awful tempting to have an attractive combination of steel, wood and (hopefully) leather be part of your daily routine as opposed to a black mass of mostly plastic.

1911s are also still highly competitive if not superior for target shooting and other shooting competitions, but then the user doesn't have to carry the 3lb thing all day. :)

I carry a single stack polymer wonder with a spare mag myself, so it's not the capacity issue for me, 100% it's the weight, and no I don't want an aluminum 1911.
 
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rufrdr said:
Me too. I've owned a bunch of 1911s and they all worked, even the first, a series 70 purchased new in 1973. I say 'even the series 70' because that was from the era when all of the pistoleros said that no Colt worked 100% out of the box. I never got the 'all 1911s have to be tuned to work' thing. Never my experience.
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I have owned a foot tub of 1911s from the 1970s...never had one that was not 100% with 230 Ball.
 
It is unfortunate that the golden years of polished blued steel and walnut are behind us.

Fortunately, some of JMBs creations persist in some form or another.

We also have modern carry guns that would have been a fantasy even 30 years ago.

I think most of us have both and enjoy them. Maybe times aren’t so bad!
 
wheelgun_man said:
Be sure to check out the 1911 links below! Particularly M.T. “Lone Wolf” Gonzaullas’ custom pair. Both had cut-away trigger guards AND the grip safety was locked in the “fire” position 😱😱😱. He lived to be 86 and clanked every step he took!
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Like stepping back into a aged time and mindset. Thanks for the link. Those are masterpieces of a time gone by.
 
Lordy! Where DO some of these ideas come from? :D
Detritus said:
The trigger goes directly rearward and interfaces directly with the sear

No, it does not. The trigger never touches the sear.
Chuckman said:
Our armorers realized that the more 'tuned up' the gun was, the more prone to malfunction.

I spoke with one of the Marine armorers at length a few years back...sitting here at my kitchen table. Some of the "building" techniques that he described made me wonder how the guns functioned at all, particularly in the area of barrel fitting.

As they say:

Something has been lost in the translation.

They'd have been better off pulling a few dozen of the rearsenaled pistols in inventory and pressing those into service.
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Hashknife said:
The majority of Texas Rangers nowdays carry either a Sig or a 2011 for a reason.
Capacity....
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Back in the day, during that little unpleasant thing in Southeast Asia, the US Army took up all the bad, old 20 round M16 magazines and issued the fine, new 30 rounders.

And while the rounds fired to enemy casualty scores didn't really improve, the lads did blow away 50% more ammo.
 
John Travis said:
Lordy! Where DO some of these ideas come from? :D
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John Travis said:
Detritus said:
The trigger goes directly rearward and interfaces directly with the sear

No, it does not. The trigger never touches the sear.
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Ya know, most folks would look at the mechanics of the 1911 lock-work and say Yep "trigger straight back, pushes on sear" is an accurate description. But you quoted me so as to make a "wow what a dork" comment because I forgot that when the slide is in battery the lower end of the disconnector acts as a mechanically inconsequential spacer between the trigger-bow and sear (Mea culpa, I forgot that the disconnector is between the two with the gun ready to fire). Meaning that yes, you're technically right the trigger bow does not make "direct contact" with the actual sear, but for the purposes of the question that I was responding to, the bottom of the disconnector is a shim on the sear.

But you felt it necessary to come in and be a pedant and do an "Actually...." because of a part that is literally along for the ride, until after the process that was being discussed. Really?
 
Detritus said:
Ya know, most folks would look at the mechanics of the 1911 lock-work and say Yep "trigger straight back, pushes on sear" is an accurate description. But you quoted me so as to make a "wow what a dork" comment because I forgot that when the slide is in battery the lower end of the disconnector acts as a mechanically inconsequential spacer between the trigger-bow and sear (Mea culpa, I forgot that the disconnector is between the two with the gun ready to fire). Meaning that yes, you're technically right the trigger bow does not make "direct contact" with the actual sear, but for the purposes of the question that I was responding to, the bottom of the disconnector is a shim on the sear.

But you felt it necessary to come in and be a pedant and do an "Actually...." because of a part that is literally along for the ride, until after the process that was being discussed. Really?
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I doubt he was trying to be mean...

He was was simplying trying to correct a common misconception.

Think about it... if one assembled the entire pistol without the disco: would it fire? No...

Its not mechanically insignificant at all. It is in fact very significant.


I dont think Ive ever seen Mr Travis say ANYTHING mean spirited across many, many places on the net.
 
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I’ll just pop in about Travis: I’ve bumped heads with him a few times in the past over his love/knowledge about the 1911 platform and firearms in general. Some of the times I still hold I was in the right. Most of the times I was in the wrong. But through all of them he was never mean spirited. And if anyone was deserving of righteous wrath it would have been me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Detritus said:
But you quoted me so as to make a "wow what a dork" comment
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Nope. That's not why I did it. I don't do that. I see misconceptions and misunderstandings as to the pistol's function and try to clear up those misunderstandings so that all can learn from it. I've run into this particular one dozens of times over the last 50-odd years.

Another common belief is that the barrel recoils and drives the slide rearward. You'd be shocked at the number of people who believe that.

So, no...I wasn't "calling you out." I used the quote to call attention to a common misunderstanding of the disconnect's function in the fire control group.
 
Hashknife said:
Capacity
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Now for the "IMO" segment, which is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Just food for thought.

Whenever this question comes up, I've noticed that most armed private citizens assume that their moment of truth will involve a running gun battle, complete with moving, seeking cover, flanking, and taking the fight to the bad guys as it were...with the intention of taking them out and saving the day.

I feel the need to point to a few realities.

One...It never happens the way you think it will.

Two...that smokewagon on your belt is there to fight your way OUT of a bad situation...not deeper into one.

Three...if you do fight your way deeper into it and you survive...the local authorities won't be pinning a medal on you. They'll see you as a willing combatant and treat you accordingly. Bet on that.

Four...all those spare magazines you're carrying will just reinforce the feeling that you established with the last point.

Five...The longer you stay engaged, the more shot at you get. The more shot at you get, the more likely you are to get shot. You have to be lucky every time he pulls the triggers. He only only has to get lucky once.

Six...If you're caught in the open and facing multiple armed adversaries all focused on you, you're likely dead before your gun runs dry.

Cheers all.
 
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