Buffalo, NY mass shooting 10 dead

ChickenHawk said:
If I see a guy riding around with a ballistic helmet on and a vest I'm going to start moving away from that vehicle. I think being aware of your surroundings and booking it are the most valuable lessons from this. You could see on their faces that they just couldn't process what they were seeing until he opened fire. Sad all the way around.
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I was just going to type that its getting so dangerous that we may need to all drive with ballistic helmets and vests on to be safe, when you posted this...lol
 
Jayne said:
I watched the video, and there is basically nothing those first people could have done. He did nothing strange (no crashing into cars in the lot or trying to run people over or anything that would say he was anything but another shopper in the lot) until he popped out and went all call-of-duty on people loading groceries into cars.
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One guy exiting the door (while the first four people were being dropped) successfully ran back inside -- which is likely why the perp planted 5 in the glass on his way in. Unfortunately, that same guy didn't run far enough, as I believe he's the one who is gunned down (7th casualty in footage) before the shooter sees the cashier on the ground and yells 'sorry'. (Clothing seems to match despite the graininess when the video fuzzes out, hence why I think it's the same person.)

This one was a lesson for me ... specifically to keep on going if I manage to get away.

The rest outside the store -- yea, absolutely nothing they could have done.
 
ChickenHawk said:
If I see a guy riding around with a ballistic helmet on and a vest I'm going to start moving away from that vehicle. I think being aware of your surroundings and booking it are the most valuable lessons from this. You could see on their faces that they just couldn't process what they were seeing until he opened fire. Sad all the way around.
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Go watch it, see how long between when the car comes into view (of the victims) and see how fast you would have had to notice the guy's helmet inside the car and react. Once the door is open and he's visible outside the car... not a whole lot of processing time.
 
Jayne said:
Go watch it, see how long between when the car comes into view (of the victims) and see how fast you would have had to notice the guy's helmet inside the car and react. Once the door is open and he's visible outside the car... not a whole lot of processing time.
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I did watch it. You can see them looking at him riding up. I'm not saying that they are at fault at all. Just that being aware of everything around you is the best defense.
 
surrealone said:
This one was a lesson for me ... specifically to keep on going if I manage to get away.
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The one time I thought I was running for my life, pretty sure Usain was falling behind me and I didn't stop for several minutes. Once it's time to go, it's time to go FAR.
 
ChickenHawk said:
I did watch it. You can see them looking at him riding up. I'm not saying that they are at fault at all. Just that being aware of everything around you is the best defense.
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Define 'aware' though. Aware there was a car driving up and they didn't want to walk in front of it?

I'll admit that I'm looking out for distracted drivers in parking lots, 'aware' that they're probably looking around for spots and not where they're going, or busy beating their kids in the back seat, or checking facebook to ensure everyone knows they're about to shop or whatever the hell people are doing... but looking for helmet is not something I've ever thought to do and unlikely to do going forward. No way I can keep up that level of vigilance 24/7/365.
 
ChickenHawk said:
I did watch it. You can see them looking at him riding up. I'm not saying that they are at fault at all. Just that being aware of everything around you is the best defense.
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Jayne said:
Define 'aware' though. Aware there was a car driving up and they didn't want to walk in front of it?

I'll admit that I'm looking out for distracted drivers in parking lots, 'aware' that they're probably looking around for spots and not where they're going, or busy beating their kids in the back seat, or checking facebook to ensure everyone knows they're about to shop or whatever the hell people are doing... but looking for helmet is not something I've ever thought to do and unlikely to do going forward. No way I can keep up that level of vigilance 24/7/365.
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A teenager driving ... on a Saturday ... in a camo top wearing a helmet with ballistic eyewear .... and a camera mounted to the helmet's shroud? Honestly, if I'd seen that, I'd likely have figured he was coming from a paintball thing.
 
Is it wrong for me to blame this on the internet? Before the “net”, an individual like this would have a hard time finding people of similar thought to inflame and incite him to violence. To find a person of like mind he would have probably come to somebodies attention and intervention would have followed.

Now, with the internet, he can sit in his room and join all these chats and groups that will reinforce his beliefs and can lead to violence.
 
blewis3 said:
Is it wrong for me to blame this on the internet? Before the “net”, an individual like this would have a hard time finding people of similar thought to inflame and incite him to violence. To find a person of like mind he would have probably come to somebodies attention and intervention would have followed.

Now, with the internet, he can sit in his room and join all these chats and groups that will reinforce his beliefs and can lead to violence.
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Isn't that a lot like blaming the gun instead of the person who used it? I ask only because no matter the influences, the choice to go postal still ultimately resided with the individual...
 
Jayne said:
Define 'aware' though. Aware there was a car driving up and they didn't want to walk in front of it?

I'll admit that I'm looking out for distracted drivers in parking lots, 'aware' that they're probably looking around for spots and not where they're going, or busy beating their kids in the back seat, or checking facebook to ensure everyone knows they're about to shop or whatever the hell people are doing... but looking for helmet is not something I've ever thought to do and unlikely to do going forward. No way I can keep up that level of vigilance 24/7/365.
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Maybe it is just me and I'm weird(which is a given), but I always notice what people are looking like/at when I'm in the parking lot of a store and they are driving around me. Of course I usually try to make eye contact with people so they know that I'm there as well. Could be why I notice stuff.
 
blewis3 said:
Is it wrong for me to blame this on the internet? Before the “net”, an individual like this would have a hard time finding people of similar thought to inflame and incite him to violence. To find a person of like mind he would have probably come to somebodies attention and intervention would have followed.

Now, with the internet, he can sit in his room and join all these chats and groups that will reinforce his beliefs and can lead to violence.
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I've read (without supporting documentation or research) that the shooter's high school had identified the kid as needing intervention for making threats, but yet again nothing happens because nobody wants to get involved. Then this kind of thing happens.
 
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Timfoilhat said:
I've read (without supporting documentation or research) that the shooter's high school had identified the kid as needing intervention for making threats, but yet again nothing happens because nobody wants to get involved. Then this kind of thing happens.
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And then they blame the gun instead of the morons who did nothing... or the shooter who did criminal things.
 
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GeorgeBush said:
I'm sure they heard the gunfire outside. Probably just jaded and assumed another parking lot shooting. I assume this was a rough area if they had armed security in a grocery store.
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I think this is the problem. If you're used to hearing gunfire, your reaction is to get down. 99% of the time, the people shooting don't care about you and that's the exact right thing to do -- only in the 1% scenario is hitting the deck and staying there a bad idea. Tricky to know what's going on before it's too late.
 
blewis3 said:
Is it wrong for me to blame this on the internet? Before the “net”, an individual like this would have a hard time finding people of similar thought Feds to inflame and incite him to violence. To find a person of like mind he would have probably come to somebodies attention and intervention would have followed.

Now, with the internet, he can sit in his room and join all these chats and groups that where feds will reinforce his beliefs and can lead to violence.
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just taking a wild guess.
 
surrealone said:
Isn't that a lot like blaming the gun instead of the person who used it? I ask only because no matter the influences, the choice to go postal still ultimately resided with the individual...
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I agree, the choice is ultimately the individual. But in this case the individual was not "normal", and even though he is ultimately responsible, the "internet" facilitated his radicalization.

I have no idea what to do about it. I enjoy surfing the "net" and do not believe that it should be censored and any attempt to do so could backfire and lead down into the rabbit hole. But like was mentioned above the individual was identified but nobody did anything, his parents, the school, nor law enforcement.
 
If possible I would want to evade and escape and live BUT if that wasn’t an optimal option then I would hope I would take Clint’s advice

 
ChickenHawk said:
If I see a guy riding around with a ballistic helmet on and a vest I'm going to start moving away from that vehicle. I think being aware of your surroundings and booking it are the most valuable lessons from this. You could see on their faces that they just couldn't process what they were seeing until he opened fire. Sad all the way around.
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Being aware and using tools like Col Coopers Color Code or Col Boyd’s OODA Loop thinking is something few people know and use … much less use on a Saturday afternoon doing something as normal as going to to grocery store. The average person will be more into their iPhone, keeping their children from doing something, crying over spreading twice what they did last year on groceries, etc and barely even spot the car coming much less who‘s driving and what he’s wearing. Honestly when I do stay in Yellow 99% of the time and scan for suspicious vehicle activity and then go orange and check the occupants so a Ford POS sedan calmly moving thru the parking lot likely not even send me into Orange and get a second look from even paranoid me. Now first volley of live fire and Red Means Go kicks in and sadly you have to play catch up … that’s if you youve trained enough to know which again few people are like board members here. The general population are sheep and just freeze … sadly CYA (and loved ones) first and pray for the rest.
 
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It’s very easy for us to sit back and talk about situational awareness and keeping vigilant, but despite anyones best efforts, there will be times we aren’t 100% on point. I’ve walked through a lot of parking lots and I do keep an eye out for cars. But that’s what the majority of people do, watch for >cars< not drivers. It’s not the driver that’s going to hit you, it’s his car. So it’s very likely that many of them did see the car pull up. But it isn’t instinctive to stare inside at the driver. Probably registered that “ok car pulled up…stopped…not gonna but me…keep walking.”

I’m actually sitting in a car line now waiting to pick up a kid from school, and honestly with how some of these car windows are tinted I can barely see the driver, and I’m 10 feet away >trying< to see them.

That said, it does give us all a wake up call that our awareness may at times need to be heightened a bit more. Not just inside stores, not just watching people coming in and out of doors, but try to see the eyes of people around you.

As far as “blaming the internet”, I don’t really blame the internet any more than I blame the gun. But I >do< blame the people who may have been aware and said nothing. Those on the live stream may not have had time to find/locate/warn anyone, but those others who were around this piece of garbage had to have seen or heard something. Just the same as I >would< blame a gun owner if a kid walked in and said he wanted an AR15/Body Armor/ammo and mentioned he was planning something bad with it but shrugged it off and sold him the stuff anyway. Complicit is the word I think I’m looking for.
 
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ChickenHawk said:
Maybe it is just me and I'm weird(which is a given), but I always notice what people are looking like/at when I'm in the parking lot of a store and they are driving around me. Of course I usually try to make eye contact with people so they know that I'm there as well. Could be why I notice stuff.
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I would think a high percentage of people on this forum would consider themselves much more aware than the general population. And if you're a century, standing a post, maybe you can see what every person in that busy parking lot and every person in moving vehicles is wearing, but for most people who aren't standing still and looking for trouble - I don't think so. That guy drove up and started shooting. If that century was looking the other way for a second, he'd probably still be dead. Add in doing something other than looking for trouble - like putting your groceries away, looking down at your keys, or phone for a second, or watching someone else.....there's just nothing you can do sometimes. And IF you did somehow notice - how many seconds would you have? How many steps ahead of those 5.56mm projectiles would you get?
 
I always wait a moment or two before jumping out of my car, most of the time I'm alone but nothing can stop what this idiot did to these folks.
Reminds me of the Aurora movie theater shooter. He was on a mission to kill people.
 
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RE: shooting through the glass, pretty sure I saw in his manifesto that he had done recon of the store, knew about the one armed guard and also noted that the guard customarily stood just inside the entryway. He planned to put a couple shots through the glass prior to making entry in order to take the guard out. He had diagrams of his intended route of travel through the store, focusing on the checkout lines which were customarily backed up and thus "target rich".
 
ontheroad said:
RE: shooting through the glass, pretty sure I saw in his manifesto that he had done recon of the store, knew about the one armed guard and also noted that the guard customarily stood just inside the entryway. He planned to put a couple shots through the glass prior to making entry in order to take the guard out. He had diagrams of his intended route of travel through the store, focusing on the checkout lines which were customarily backed up and thus "target rich".
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Yeah I saw something similar to that account. The guy was hell bent on killing innocent folks. Like @B00ger said we can all second guess and Monday morning quarterback what happened and we SHOULD do so but ultimately this guy was fast and had a thought out plan and that makes it difficult for anyone to take him out or make effective hits.
 
Geezer said:
This shooting and killing of 10 people in Buffalo is horrible and unacceptable. However, how many people were killed in Detroit, Chicago, Baltimore, etc. yesterday? It has become so commonplace in those cities that no one even raises an eyebrow anymore.
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This was a disgusting act fueled by racism. The blatant murder of 10 innocent people in one event is easy to use by the media to fuel a backlash against guns, Republicans, white folk, or anything they want to use it for.

The examples of white on black racism are rare, but are often exceptionally newsworthy. If however you were to count incidents of white on black violence vs black on white violence a completely different picture would emerge.

Many more whites are attacked and even killed by blacks than the other way around, and I believe most are racially motivated. Heck even blacks kill more blacks than whites do, but nobody cares about that, especially BLM.
 
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Radar said:
If possible I would want to evade and escape and live BUT if that wasn’t an optimal option then I would hope I would take Clint’s advice

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I quit watching at "the second gun should be as big or bigger than the first".

Really? Regardless of what this guy has done in the past he's being a tool, playing to the camera with little regard for reality.
 
I see that sleepy is taking a trip down there, presumably to photo op with the deceased to push something or another. Guess that makes the families feel better?

Here, let me interrupt your grieving with a helping of media circus! So helpful.
 
Jayne said:
I see that sleepy is taking a trip down there, presumably to photo op with the deceased to push something or another. Guess that makes the families feel better?

Here, let me interrupt your grieving with a helping of media circus! So helpful.
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Bet he claims he knows all about it and start talking about Beau
 
WildBill said:
Word is Google is going into users accounts and removing this shooters manifesto if it was saved to Google docs or any other service of theirs.

Good ol' policing of information, telling you what you can and can't read. Wonder what else they have been or will be removing from people's saved documents?
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Yeah, that’s not true.
 
barf said:
Link?
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Just captures from /pol/ so who knows if they’re altered/fake

Can’t remember if it was you talking about the Canadian poster glowing hard or another member. Twitch cut the feed just under 7 minutes. Apparently it was still streaming on discord to the 22 people after he spared the lad on the ground. The Canadian poster leaking screen shots before vid was posted had to be in that discord channel. Curious what happened between twitch feed stopping and arrest?
 
What I saw was a bunch of poor old folk, not a military-age male among them. None of the folks that were murdered would have been the kind to have a weapon. Just like the old idiot that shot up the church 200 miles from his home, these insane fools go to what most consider safe places to kill.
They don’t want a ccw or cop shooting them in the back of the head, or an off base military man taking their gun away and beating them to death.
The folks that need a weapon the most, are usually the ones unlikely to carry one. Too bad the cops that arrived didn’t see fit to send a 3-round burst right through his helmet.
 
Amanda4461 said:
What I saw was a bunch of poor old folk, not a military-age male among them. None of the folks that were murdered would have been the kind to have a weapon. Just like the old idiot that shot up the church 200 miles from his home, these insane fools go to what most consider safe places to kill.
They don’t want a ccw or cop shooting them in the back of the head, or an off base military man taking their gun away and beating them to death.
The folks that need a weapon the most, are usually the ones unlikely to carry one. Too bad the cops that arrived didn’t see fit to send a 3-round burst right through his helmet.
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Yeah I believe most victims were over 50. Dude is a cold blooded coward.
 
yard mongrel said:
Funny that his "race war" didn't take him to a fish parlor in the hood a 2am, but to a grocery store full of old ladies.
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If I remember right, he did say in the manifesto that he considered attacking drug dealers in the ghetto or something similar. But he thought there was too much risk of return fire.
 
Ben Jefferson said:
I am sure I overlooked this but he was using a 5.56 AR?
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According to NY logic, he used a non scary assault rifle that could not possibly do the damage of a scary looking one with an adjustable stock and other scary features like a bayonet locking hub. Looked like an M16A2. The important thing to NY lawmakers is that it doesn't look as scary as the newer style, therefore their legislation meant something. The logic of their legislation is that it would stop assaults like this. One day they'll get it right and pass the right gun control law... they just have to keep trying... and Biden will fly up there with the right answer today.
 
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