To be honest I consider all organised religion nonsense.
Church shooting in TX will disappear from news
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There has been no mention of additional ammo judging by how he handled the shotgun I do not think it would have mattered because he would not have been able to reload at speed.
His lack of skill vs the one GGs skills are what saved the day. Had he been proficient with the shotgun the outcome would have been less favorable. He hesitated after he got the shotgun out. Not long but probably long enough to make a difference.
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From what Wiki said, I can see how you got there.
Throughout the centuries Christianity has made our world a MUCH better place to live.
As it’s waning here, we’ll only see more of these nihilistic murderous nut jobs.
And we know wiki is always correct. CI has small gatherings everywhere. I left church many years ago. But yes it teaches separation of the races. No membership lists are kept to stop .gov intrusion.
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Lol, for real. Just read about them myself now that you mentioned it. they are the enemy, much less representative of christian values.
I tell liberals ALLLL the time, I aint a hypocrite. Yes, I would press the red button on islam. And id also press it on Neo-nazis, KKK, and any other group whose only purpose is to serve as a vehicle of radicalization. It usually dead-ends their 'you are racist against muslims' argument real quick. Im racist against unconditional violence and hate is all.
Even assuming he did not, let's say he's using 12g 00 buck and has 5 in the mag & 1 in the chamber. That's 54 pellets @.32" diameter; 2 shots got to the first 2 victims, then he swings the muzzle across the crowd with 36 pellets available.
If he's using #4 buck, at about 27 pellets each shell...
It's a recipe for mass shooting whether he had the means or ability to reload or not.
Catholic, Baptist, & methodist churches are what made me see the light on organised religion.
Actually the bible has many references to separation of the races.
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You keep saying ''organized religion"...Do you mean 'conventional religion'...'main stream' religion'?...Yours is organized, its just not main stream, because its ex-treme. The ones you mention, along with judaism, while having their dark times, have produced the value systems that compose the fabric of societies which have produced cosmic scale leaps in economic prosperity, technology, science as well as local, regional and global stability. The closest representative of your religion brought about the darkest period of the 2oth century, resulting in industrial scale global war, the deaths of hundreds of millions, destruction of ancient architecture, and created the selective pressure that ultimately led to the invention of thermonuclear weapons--a threat to our entire species...Congrats.
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It's not my religion as I stated earlier. And no I mean organised & I really see no difference in any of them. They prey on the weak.
Right it also talks about how to discipline your slave. I don’t think you are strengthening your position but that is not what this tread is about so I will let it go.
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That’s more about culture and religion than race.
God approved Moses marrying a Cushite (Ethiopian) woman, when his SIL criticized the marriage, she was struck with leprosy. Num 12:1-10
There also that pesky “man’s made in the image of God” detail.
Mods, my apologies for the detail. It might be a good idea to pull this detail into a new “Organized Religion” thread.
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It's not my position. The Bible is assoc. with organised religion of which I washed my hands of many years ago. I was just stating what the book says that churches are based upon. CI is based upon the same book. Books were written by people with agendas.
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Preying on the weak is done by every person and everything and hard wired into our biology. The lion and the gazelle have been at it like tom and jerry since long before humans entered the scene. Those 'organized religions' you mention have attempted to SYSTEMATICALLY EMPOWER the weak against the odds of our primitive wiring. Sorry to tell ya, but that's as good as it gets. Christian Identity on the other hand, is actually systematically preying on the weak. Recruiting the dejected, spiritually empty and/or socially defeated people who need someone else other than themselves to blame for their perceived injustices. and apparently they dont mind hijacking the 'christian brand' to drive that hard sell. Talk about predatory practices...
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Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."
Just sayin fellas.
Just sayin fellas.
Combat Diver
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He knew the shotgun as previously he was arrested in NJ in 2016 with a Mossberg 500. Two different interviews. First from the Sheriff who stated BG pockets were full of ammo. Second, Jack Wilson stated it was loaded with 00 buck.
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Can you guys give it a rest with the pissing contest over religion and anti-religion?
This thread was supposed to be about the church shooting and the potential for it to be ignored by the MSM.
All you're doing is creating hard feelings and division among our group, when we need to be united in our efforts to protect 2A rights.
This thread was supposed to be about the church shooting and the potential for it to be ignored by the MSM.
All you're doing is creating hard feelings and division among our group, when we need to be united in our efforts to protect 2A rights.
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Sometimes quality over quantity is more important...Its good that passive liberals and especially moderates stumbling upon thread from search engines dont get the wrong idea.
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Sorry for the poor choice of words. That was insensitive and went way wide of the mark. Difficult to express the observations and feelings this horror provoked in my mind. Church attendance has certainly changed from my tender youth if you have armed guards lining the walls trained to kill someone, and many more members ready to join in the fray. What faith is this? What mission work attracts such danger? Is it TSA to personally meet and evaluate everyone as they enter, given the level of armed response waiting inside? That is a gross inconsistency in security by any sober analysis. I can't imagine that "just having" a short shotgun in church could ever be OK, especially in the hands of one everybody "knew was trouble", based on what Wilson stated. If they knew, they were negligent for letting him inside, in spite of all heroics. I'll stop at that. Everyone has to reason and prepare for themselves. This should not have happened. But it did...
Again, you are describing things that just aren't so.
Perhaps since your youth Church has changed in the way it has come under attack. In the past decade the number of church shootings has increased, therefore a need to defend the church has grown. I will break down your message a bit, because it is incorrect in many of its assertions:
1. "armed guards lining the walls trained to kill someone" Most of these guards are just church members who have firearms anyway and volunteer. Most churches have ushers anyway, so having a few armed isn't really that big a deal. They aren't standing there chomping at the bit to throw lead and KEEL. It is just a reaction to an increasingly anti-Christian/anti-church mentality.
2. "and many more members ready to join in the fray" As has been said before, conceal carry is on the rise nationally. Just because someone goes into a church building doesn't mean they have a desire or need to disarm themselves. I am a preacher, and I carry a gun. It isn't because I am scared or paranoid. It is because I know I have a family and a flock to protect. I have no desire for violence, nor any blood thirsty notions.
3. "What faith is this?" Its the same faith that has been around since Abraham. Even Jesus asked if they had swords because they knew there would be danger. Being prepared for evil does not equate to accepting or welcoming it.
4. "What mission work attracts such danger?" Preaching and spreading the word of God has been a dangerous assignment since Cain and Able.
5. " Is it TSA to personally meet and evaluate everyone as they enter" Most churches aren't in the habit of frisking people that come in. Nor are they in a position to. Its winter time and people where coats. Its easy to sneak things in.
6. "given the level of armed response waiting inside?" The word RESPONSE is important here. Those people aren't there to shoot people, they are there to worship the Lord. If someone wishes to cause trouble, they are prepared to respond in kind. It is >not< the prime reason people in churches are carrying firearms.
7. "That is a gross inconsistency in security by any sober analysis." It is only a gross inconsistency if you feel that the people inside are desiring the enticing of people into an ambush. Churches are supposed to be welcoming and loving environments. People inside being prepared for trouble doesn't change this fact.
8. "I can't imagine that "just having" a short shotgun in church could ever be OK" It isn't...but it also doesn't meet the legal standing to start shooting someone holding one. As said above, it is reason to go on point and get ready. But just having it doesn't make it a "go time" scenario.
9. "especially in the hands of one everybody "knew was trouble" Knowing someone is trouble still doesn't give the green light for shooting them until they are an actual threat. Don't get me wrong, I believe it possibly should be, but that isn't how self defense laws work.
10. "If they knew, they were negligent for letting him inside" Knowing someone is "trouble" doesn't necessarily equate to blocking them from entry until given an actual reason to do so. Again, its a Church. It is supposed to be a place where "troubled" people can go for help and guidance.
Your mentality on the subject reads more like you fault churches for being prepared to defend themselves on one hand, but on the other not doing enough to be prepared to defend themselves. Churches are not like a regular business that is designed to pick and choose who enter the doors. It is a sanctuary for the broken and downtrodden. Having people armed on the inside doesn't detract from that regardless of how anyone >feels< about it.
To get it back on track.
Minister: Texas gunman grew angry in past over cash requests
https://www.yahoo.com/news/minister-texas-gunman-grew-angry-153033552.html
Minister: Texas gunman grew angry in past over cash requests
https://www.yahoo.com/news/minister-texas-gunman-grew-angry-153033552.html
BudE
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I can't make it out but I bet the safety was on.
fieldgrade
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While I think the extended banter regarding religion is unnecessary, I think the fact that it is a church does weigh on the subject, and the pacifist position that was discussed upthread was adequately answered with scripture, since it is a church we are talking about. So no, discussion of religion shouldn’t banish the discussion of a church shooting to the bowels of the forum, provided we stay on point.
Thanks for posting that @blewis3 . My grandad was a pastor and some of the requests he would get for people wanting help with their electric bill so they could just make the car payment on their new Pontiac was a little out there, but apparently a motive.
Thanks for posting that @blewis3 . My grandad was a pastor and some of the requests he would get for people wanting help with their electric bill so they could just make the car payment on their new Pontiac was a little out there, but apparently a motive.
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fieldgrade
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@BatteryOaksBilly made the same assessment, and I would agree, which makes a moving head shot in spite of all that was going in the room a hell of a shot.
Getting closer to topic, looks like Crazy Joe Biden disagrees with the TX law that let church attendees carry concealed.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/texas-church-shooting-gun-laws-biden-army-sniper
https://www.foxnews.com/media/texas-church-shooting-gun-laws-biden-army-sniper
If you don't mind me asking, how old are you (approximately)?
I read where the good guy was quoted as saying parishioners were taking cover between him and the shooter so a head shot was the only shot available.
In the event that the head shot missed he was at least in position for a follow-up to the torso.
I would think a man that skilled would be able to transition there prior to the BG racking a 3rd shotgun round and acquiring again!
I would think a man that skilled would be able to transition there prior to the BG racking a 3rd shotgun round and acquiring again!
Hopefully this will get things back on track. Or derail on another tangent, who knows?
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Dude, its been on track for 6 hours...srsly....sheesh...
I'm 72 and attended church every time the doors opened until I left my first wife around 28. Later my new wife thought our kids needed some religion and we tried a few churches several years ago. They're all grown now. Whatever loss or sense of inadequacy they ever felt didn't last. I often miss the community and support that a church family provides, but the rigid doctrinaire demands, and range of acceptable beliefs were unattractive, to say the least. We were Church of Christ, a rather strict, conceited sect I eventually learned. "Only ones going to heaven" kind of attitude, evangelical, missionaries in Africa, etc. The Prince of Peace was always the message, though. Deacons passed the plate, not the ammunition. My mom was bad about taking in strays, messed up foster kids in our little house, and every kind of good work. That world no longer exists. People are not generally good anymore, and the law/culture is morally degraded beyond redemption, in my lifetime at least. I understand that a lot of churches today are faced with a lower class of human being. Drugs, abuse of every kind, economic misery, drunkeness and crime, a sense of entitlement. I don't judge people like Pastor Booger who carry guns in church and try to help these folks. I am skeptical of any success with such lost souls. It is appalling what can and did happen here, just down the road from my perfect little world that is no more. I may have failed to express those concerns and criticisms in a helpful manner. For that, I apologize.
I have no LEO or military firearms training, so take my analyses for what they are - layman's thoughts. First, Jack Wilson made a very good shot under duress. But if you look at the video between the 13 second mark and the 17 second mark, even he struggled with his draw. His right arm started back as soon as the shotgun appeared, and he didn't immediately draw and you can see him flinch at the first shot. There were only about 3 seconds from the first two shotgun shots until the kill shot, and the cadence was about a shot per second, so from draw to longish head shot under, say, 4 seconds - that's pretty good performance. (And I admit that I might have been on the floor in fetal position at the first report of that shotgun, so any criticism I seem to be making should be measured against that reaction.) The perp was wearing a wig and toboggan, and not appropriate dress for the church. I could be cruel and say more situational awareness would have been called for, but the stuff went down pretty fast.
Second, the first guy who got shot was carrying in a bad position, in my opinion. He had on a sport coat, with lots of pockets, but he was apparently drawing from small of the back. If he had been carrying the gun in his inside sport coat pocket, he might have had a better chance to live.
I used to think pocket carry was a good thing because it's easy to just drop a gun in your pocket. But as my fat ass has gotten fatter my pockets have gotten tighter. Sometimes I can't answer my cell phone if it's in my pocket before it goes to voice mail.
Ask @fieldgrade about his attempts at the Wizard Drill with his pocket carry Glock with nylon holster. Even starting with hand on the gun in pocket, things happen.
Second, the first guy who got shot was carrying in a bad position, in my opinion. He had on a sport coat, with lots of pockets, but he was apparently drawing from small of the back. If he had been carrying the gun in his inside sport coat pocket, he might have had a better chance to live.
I used to think pocket carry was a good thing because it's easy to just drop a gun in your pocket. But as my fat ass has gotten fatter my pockets have gotten tighter. Sometimes I can't answer my cell phone if it's in my pocket before it goes to voice mail.
Ask @fieldgrade about his attempts at the Wizard Drill with his pocket carry Glock with nylon holster. Even starting with hand on the gun in pocket, things happen.